Creationists versus Evolutionists

[Vyraeth]

I may be stepping into the kill zone by posting this, but I am certainly curious.

I have read most of Mr. Wong's science fiction themed website, and just yesterday I have discovered his Creationism versus Evolution website, and started to read that.

I am a Christian, and I believe in the existence of God, but I do not neccessarily believe that Evoluton never occured. Quite to the contrary, I believe it did occur.

I also believe that evolution is the work of God. Now, I know Mr. Wong would not accept such an answer, because there is no evidence behind it, but I believe that in my faith.

I suppose what I am confused about is why creationists don't believe this either. I'm only seveteen years old so I'm admittedly naive, but I am trying to learn and grow.

So I had a few questions:

1) Does being Christian make one a Creationists? Or are Creationists a specific subset of Christians who strictly believe evolution did not occur?

I understand this forum is not one for understanding an individual's faith, but I'm taking a little leeway to ask this question. I would assume the answer to my first question is no, because obviously, I'm a Christian and believe evolution occured, but I guess what I'm asking is well, does that make me a hypocrite? The answer to the second question can be derived from the first.

(Note: I know someone might think that I could ask this question in church, but I haven't attended church in several years, and while that might seem hypocritical, that's a whole different issue.)

2) Is it fair to say that God created the universe, and consequently created evolution?

I am not trying to pruport this theory as a scientfic theory, mind you, and I realize that such a question may seem like a cop out to atheists, but I believe, from a Christian standpoint, that easily covers any religious dilemmas believing in Evolution may present.

3) Does anyone know if there are other Christians that believe in evolution?

I could google this, but I figured the knowledgeable people on this forum could quickly answer it.

Heh, I apologize for the awkwardness of this post, if it's in appropriate, moderators, I'll be sure not to go in such a direction again.

I just want people to understand that I am reading the forums, and attempting to draw my own conclusions, which is what I think they're for.

Thanks in advance.

-- Vyraeth

[Alyeska]

When it comes to Christians and Evolution you get three basic catagories.

Those who believe in creation of some sort.

Those who believe in Inteligent Design. This usualy takes Evolution and applies "God did it". Some Christians will say they believe in Evolution, just that God did it. They are actualy Inteligent Design believers.

Those who fully understand and believe in Evolution.

The majority of Christians likely fall under the Inteligent Design catagory. This is better then having them as strict biblical creation believers, but it also means they have enough public power to try and have false science standards taught in high school.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

1) Does being Christian make one a Creationists? Or are Creationists a specific subset of Christians who strictly believe evolution did not occur?

Creationists are a particular breed of rabid fundie (not necessarily even Christian, though in the Western world they're the most common). We have many Christians on this board, but I don't think any of them are actually creationists -- if they were, they'd be laughed out of here pretty quick.

2) Is it fair to say that God created the universe, and consequently created evolution?

Whatever floats your boat... just don't tout it as scientific fact. AFAIK, it's a reasonably popular position among many of the more religious or at least spiritual members here.

3) Does anyone know if there are other Christians that believe in evolution?

Most of the ones here, I think, and probably most moderate Christians elsewhere.

[Solauren]

I have read most of Mr. Wong's science fiction themed website, and just yesterday I have discovered his Creationism versus Evolution website, and started to read that.

I am a Christian, and I believe in the existence of God, but I do not neccessarily believe that Evoluton never occured. Quite to the contrary, I believe it did occur.

No one said that being Christian doesn't mean you can't accept scientific evidence/realities

I also believe that evolution is the work of God. Now, I know Mr. Wong would not accept such an answer, because there is no evidence behind it, but I believe that in my faith.

I personally don't see a problem with this. You are accepting evolution happened, but believe it was the tool of a creator-power.

This is actually a better view then traditional Christian views.

I suppose what I am confused about is why creationists don't believe this either. I'm only seveteen years old so I'm admittedly naive, but I am trying to learn and grow.

Your confusion comes from the fact that, unfortunately, many Christians are obviously not as intelligent or open-minded as you.

1) Does being Christian make one a Creationists? Or are Creationists a specific subset of Christians who strictly believe evolution did not occur?

They are not mutually exclusive. Creationist is someone that take everything in the bible as literally true.

I guess what I'm asking is well, does that make me a hypocrite?

Not at all. Your are simply going "I believe in God, but I don't think he created everything whole-cloth"

2) Is it fair to say that God created the universe, and consequently created evolution?

I am not trying to pruport this theory as a scientfic theory, mind you, and I realize that such a question may seem like a cop out to atheists, but I believe, from a Christian standpoint, that easily covers any religious dilemmas believing in Evolution may present.

3) Does anyone know if there are other Christians that believe in evolution?

That's actually a very common belief amongst modern-thinking Christians (and other major religions)

[Snipped the rest, however, it shows this is a fairly nice guy]

Vyraeth

I think I can speak for all of us to say, that is actually a very enlightened view.

To give you a comparison.

I was about 10 when I first came to that conculssion. There was an arguement (I forget the exact information), probably in the news, about Evolution vs the church in schools. "We are right, you are wrong". Typical media muck flinging, etc.

I came to this concluision:
No one really nows where the Universe came from, and God is supposed to be pretty smart, and people are liars. Couldn't God have created the universe, set up all the laws and rules that govern it, and said 'okay, let's see what happens' and ran with it. (This would basically make him a computer programmer)

We may never know the answer to were the universe came from. There is no positive proof of god. There is no proof of god that wasn't written by (as I put it) "Smelly old men that can't even kiss a girl", and God's never shown up to correct me.

So, in summary
There is nothing wrong with your view. You have managed to do what many, many 'fundie' Christians have been able to do. You have managed to reconsile your personal beliefs with a scientific fact, without being a hypocrite or adding in unnessacary information beyond 'I think, in the end, god set it all up'.

So, don't worry about it. This is actually what a lot of PRIESTS thought when Darwin first published his theories. That someone had figured out how god works.

So, that would put you in the same league as Darwin.

Hope that helps.

[Solauren]

AHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

I can't use Qoute tags to save my life!
Thy post has been cleansed all qoute's replace with real quote's.-Bean

[Civil War Man]

I am a Christian, and I believe in the existence of God, but I do not neccessarily believe that Evoluton never occured. Quite to the contrary, I believe it did occur.

I also believe that evolution is the work of God.

That is a philosophy known as theistic evolution. It is the belief that God created the universe through the natural laws and processes of the universe, including evolution. Not unusual at all.

1) Does being Christian make one a Creationists?

No.

... Or are Creationists a specific subset of Christians who strictly believe evolution did not occur?

The Creationists you are referring to are, but they don't constitute all Creationists. There are also the Raelians, who believed that aliens seeded the Earth with microscopic organisms and that terran life resulted from there.

I would assume the answer to my first question is no, because obviously, I'm a Christian and believe evolution occured, but I guess what I'm asking is well, does that make me a hypocrite?

No. The Catholic Church does not oppose evolution, mostly because the Old Testament is not as important to Catholicism as it is to, for example, Southern Baptists.

2) Is it fair to say that God created the universe, and consequently created evolution?

Philosophically, yes. But as you said yourself, not scientifically. As I pointed out earlier, this is basically the idea behind theistic evolution.

3) Does anyone know if there are other Christians that believe in evolution?

Mainstream Christians and liberal Christians, including most Catholics. Also, IIRC, non-churchgoing Christians are much more likely to believe that evolution happened (they are more likely to support liberal social issues).

[Surlethe]

I am a Christian, and I believe in the existence of God, but I do not neccessarily believe that Evoluton never occured. Quite to the contrary, I believe it did occur.

I also believe that evolution is the work of God. Now, I know Mr. Wong would not accept such an answer, because there is no evidence behind it, but I believe that in my faith.

That makes you a Theistic Evolutionist, which is what intelligent, informed Christians tend to be. In other words, you admit there's no evidence for God (and you take his existence on faith) and you subscribe to science.

I suppose what I am confused about is why creationists don't believe this either. I'm only seveteen years old so I'm admittedly naive, but I am trying to learn and grow.

That's a good attitude to adopt.

Creationists don't believe it because they believe the Bible must be literal, for some reason or another. Creationists are generally dogmatically trained and have thus become very irrational; you, on the other hand, are only slightly irrational (because of your belief in God, and your belief he influenced evolution), and you don't want your beliefs enshrined in science classrooms to indoctrinate young children.

So I had a few questions:

1) Does being Christian make one a Creationists? Or are Creationists a specific subset of Christians who strictly believe evolution did not occur?

No! Being a Christian means only this: you accept the existence of God, the existence of Jesus, and the miracle of the resurrection. That's all it takes to be a Christian. To be a Creationist, however (in the sense of Creationism as "God created the Earth pretty much as described in Genesis), you must add a literal interpretation of Genesis to the basic requirement of Christianity. In short, Creationist (in this sense) ==> Christian; Christian =/=> Creationist.

2) Is it fair to say that God created the universe, and consequently created evolution?

I am not trying to pruport this theory as a scientfic theory, mind you, and I realize that such a question may seem like a cop out to atheists, but I believe, from a Christian standpoint, that easily covers any religious dilemmas believing in Evolution may present.

As long as you don't try to purport it as a scientific theory and admit it is irrational to believe in a God (no evidence, &c., &c.), it's perfectly fair to say God created the universe and set its laws, including evolution.

3) Does anyone know if there are other Christians that believe in evolution?

Me, for instance. Most well-informed, intelligent Christians you'll meet believe in evolution; the Catholic Church has IIRC proclaimed that evolution is not in conflict with its teachings and should be accepted, so right there are about a billion Christians who (officially) believe in evolution. Pretty much every liberal and most mainstream Christians will agree with you.

I just want people to understand that I am reading the forums, and attempting to draw my own conclusions, which is what I think they're for.

Thanks in advance.

-- Vyraeth

No problem. As long as you draw your conclusions in a logical manner, enjoy your stay here! (But keep a fire extinguisher handy, just in case)

[mr friendly guy]

1) Does being Christian make one a Creationists?

No. Nor does it make you a hypocrite for not being a creationist. Some Christians will not interpret the Bible in a literal sense (that in itself may have some problems especially when one "cherry picks" the passages they want).

Or are Creationists a specific subset of Christians who strictly believe evolution did not occur?

Some are.

2) Is it fair to say that God created the universe, and consequently created evolution?

I am not trying to pruport this theory as a scientfic theory, mind you, and I realize that such a question may seem like a cop out to atheists, but I believe, from a Christian standpoint, that easily covers any religious dilemmas believing in Evolution may present.

One could argue that from a philosophical perspective, but not a scientific one as you stated. In fact to attempt reconcile God with certain scientific laws by saying God made these laws up violates Occam's razor and also seems like the pseudoscientific way of forcing the observations to match your theory rather than a theory to explain your observations.

3) Does anyone know if there are other Christians that believe in evolution?

There are plenty of Christians who acknowledge evolution.

Using the word believe is inappropriate to describe evolution or any scientific theory. I no more believe in evolution than I believe the earth is roughly spherical or the sky is blue. Reality does not require my belief, only religion does. Reality exists regardless of my belief. Where would religion be without belief?

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

I may be stepping into the kill zone by posting this, but I am certainly curious.

I have read most of Mr. Wong's science fiction themed website, and just yesterday I have discovered his Creationism versus Evolution website, and started to read that.

I am a Christian, and I believe in the existence of God, but I do not neccessarily believe that Evoluton never occured. Quite to the contrary, I believe it did occur.

I also believe that evolution is the work of God. Now, I know Mr. Wong would not accept such an answer, because there is no evidence behind it, but I believe that in my faith.

I suppose what I am confused about is why creationists don't believe this either. I'm only seveteen years old so I'm admittedly naive, but I am trying to learn and grow.

So I had a few questions:

1) Does being Christian make one a Creationists? Or are Creationists a specific subset of Christians who strictly believe evolution did not occur?

A Creationist is a specific breed of Christian who insists on Biblical literalism at the expense of what might be suggested by objective, observable reality. (i.e. they assume that Genesis is true word-for-word, and try to force the world to fit that view.)

I understand this forum is not one for understanding an individual's faith, but I'm taking a little leeway to ask this question. I would assume the answer to my first question is no, because obviously, I'm a Christian and believe evolution occured, but I guess what I'm asking is well, does that make me a hypocrite? The answer to the second question can be derived from the first.

No. There are actually a fair number of scientists who support the theory of evolution and are devout Christians. Subscribing to a supernatural and inherently irrational faith doesn't automatically imply that one cannot accept natural, rational explanations for how the world works.

(Note: I know someone might think that I could ask this question in church, but I haven't attended church in several years, and while that might seem hypocritical, that's a whole different issue.)

You could, but the answer you would get depends directly on the level of education of the church-goer you ask. A Jesuit priest would tell you that evolution and God are complimentary, while the pastor in a Baptist church in Assfuck, Alabama might accuse you of being an EVIL ATHEIST!!!111 Asking the typical American churchgoer will get you a 50/50 chance of getting a Creationist, or a person who believes in theistic evolution. (At least according to this bit of interesting reading.)

2) Is it fair to say that God created the universe, and consequently created evolution?

This is the concept known as theistic evolution which postulates that God created the natural laws of the universe right at the start, and evolution follows along those laws.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

I am a Christian, and I believe in the existence of God, but I do not neccessarily believe that Evoluton never occured. Quite to the contrary, I believe it did occur.

I also believe that evolution is the work of God. Now, I know Mr. Wong would not accept such an answer, because there is no evidence behind it, but I believe that in my faith.

That makes you a Theistic Evolutionist, which is what intelligent, informed Christians tend to be. In other words, you admit there's no evidence for God (and you take his existence on faith) and you subscribe to science.

Not quite. Someone who subscribes to Theistic Evolution tends to believe that not only does God exist, but he created the natural laws that evolution works by. (Hence, the 'theistic' qualifer. This is different from a Naturalistic Evolutionist, who maintains that evolution and the principles governing it are purely natural, and require no invocation of any sort of god.

[Surlethe]

Not quite. Someone who subscribes to Theistic Evolution tends to believe that not only does God exist, but he created the natural laws that evolution works by. (Hence, the 'theistic' qualifer. This is different from a Naturalistic Evolutionist, who maintains that evolution and the principles governing it are purely natural, and require no invocation of any sort of god.

Point. I should have worded it better.

[Vyraeth]

Not to turn this thread into something all about me, even though I started it, I'm glad I posted it because all of you have assisted me in one way or the other. I appreciate this, and I believe that God also created the natural laws that govern the universe, I suppose that would classify me as a "Theistic Evolutionist".

Again, I appreciate the time taken to answer these questions, and am thankful for the information.

-- Vyraeth

[Darth Wong]

When it comes to Christians and Evolution you get three basic catagories.

Those who believe in creation of some sort.

Those who believe in Inteligent Design. This usualy takes Evolution and applies "God did it". Some Christians will say they believe in Evolution, just that God did it. They are actualy Inteligent Design believers.

That's actually not intelligent design, as formulated by Dr. Behe. "Intelligent Design" postulates that natural evolution is impossible, so God must have done it. The only difference between creationism and "intelligent design" is that creationism actually names the guy. What you're talking about is theistic evolution.

[Darth Wong]

AHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

I can't use Qoute tags to save my life!

Maybe because it's spelled "quote", and you consistently spell it wrong. In fact, you spelled it wrong again in this post.

[Alyeska]

When it comes to Christians and Evolution you get three basic catagories.

Those who believe in creation of some sort.

Those who believe in Inteligent Design. This usualy takes Evolution and applies "God did it". Some Christians will say they believe in Evolution, just that God did it. They are actualy Inteligent Design believers.

That's actually not intelligent design, as formulated by Dr. Behe. "Intelligent Design" postulates that natural evolution is impossible, so God must have done it. The only difference between creationism and "intelligent design" is that creationism actually names the guy. What you're talking about is theistic evolution.

So ID is heavy interferance by God while still trying to remain at least somewhat scientific while TE tries to keep God out of the equation as much as possible. That about sum it up?

[Oni Koneko Damien]

1) Does being Christian make one a Creationists? Or are Creationists a specific subset of Christians who strictly believe evolution did not occur?

"Creationists", as most commonly used, refers to people who believe the christian deity created the earth approximately 4000-10,000 years ago, and placed all life upon it pretty much the way it is today. If you wanted to be specific, though, 'Young Earth Creationists' (YEC's) believe the above. 'Old Earth Creationists' accept the age of the earth established by more scientific means (about 4.2 billion years iirc), but was still created by a deity. Not all creationists are christian, and not all christians are creationists, or YECs.

I would assume the answer to my first question is no, because obviously, I'm a Christian and believe evolution occured, but I guess what I'm asking is well, does that make me a hypocrite?

Not at all. 'Christian' as a label covers a rather diverse group of people. The only unifying thread between them is that they believe that the mythical Jesus-figure in the NT is, in fact, the offspring of a deity. There's considerable leeway as to what your individual philosophy other than that can be. I know some christians who accept 95% of the bible as nothing more than allegory, meant to creatively illustrate an underlining theme, rather than as a true-account.

(Note: I know someone might think that I could ask this question in church, but I haven't attended church in several years, and while that might seem hypocritical, that's a whole different issue.)

I wouldn't advise it unless the church were particularly open-minded. The advantage of asking something here is that even if it is biased, it's usually biased on all ends and viewpoints evenly. (well, except possibly the stupidity end.)

2) Is it fair to say that God created the universe, and consequently created evolution?

So long as you are admitting that this is nothing more than your own opinion. Claiming it as fact, especially here, immediately places the burden of proof on you to show evidence for it.

3) Does anyone know if there are other Christians that believe in evolution?

Actually, a majority of christians, if I'm not mistaken, accept that evolution at least occurs on the so-called 'micro' level. It's nothing uncommon. I live in a decidedly rural area, so the unwillingness to accept the fact that evolution occurs runs at a frightingly high percentage here. It's just one of the many, many reasons I plan to move somewhere more urban.

~Damienkitty

[Gil Hamilton]

So ID is heavy interferance by God while still trying to remain at least somewhat scientific while TE tries to keep God out of the equation as much as possible. That about sum it up?

It's not just interference by God. "Intelligent Design" is the argument that evolution is scientifically impossible, citing things like irreducible complexity, so therefore some "intelligence" must have designed it, without mentioning the words *cough cough* God. This is why it's basically Creationism in a Lab Coat, because it's larging crossing out "God" and inserting a carrot note saying "some intelligence".

[Dooey Jo]

So ID is heavy interferance by God while still trying to remain at least somewhat scientific while TE tries to keep God out of the equation as much as possible. That about sum it up?

It's not just interference by God. "Intelligent Design" is the argument that evolution is scientifically impossible, citing things like irreducible complexity, so therefore some "intelligence" must have designed it, without mentioning the words *cough cough* God. This is why it's basically Creationism in a Lab Coat, because it's larging crossing out "God" and inserting a carrot note saying "some intelligence".

Shouldn't that be Creationism in a Clown Suit

I would say that ID is the same as creationism, but with the "Intelligent Designer" instead of "god" (this designer is always male, by the way, and some low-level ID[iot]s will sometimes accidentally write god instead of "him" or "it"). Really, ID is in no way trying to remain scientific, it's just trying to sound scientific.

[Dooey Jo]

Where's that edit-button when you need it! I meant to add that the Clown Suit definition is credited to Durandal. At least I think it was Durandal that said it first...

[Rye]

When it comes to Christians and Evolution you get three basic catagories.

Those who believe in creation of some sort.

Those who believe in Inteligent Design. This usualy takes Evolution and applies "God did it". Some Christians will say they believe in Evolution, just that God did it. They are actualy Inteligent Design believers.

That's actually not intelligent design, as formulated by Dr. Behe. "Intelligent Design" postulates that natural evolution is impossible, so God must have done it. The only difference between creationism and "intelligent design" is that creationism actually names the guy. What you're talking about is theistic evolution.

So ID is heavy interferance by God while still trying to remain at least somewhat scientific while TE tries to keep God out of the equation as much as possible. That about sum it up?

TE never says specifically that God does anything than "guide it" by unspecified means. I think TE supporters think that God fine tuned the rest of the universe in order to bring us about via naturalistic processes, or he bred us like we bred dogs, or something.

IDers think that there are things evolution and nature simply cannot account for that we see in living things, or perhaps the structure of the universe. Therefore they were designed.

1) Does being Christian make one a Creationists? Or are Creationists a specific subset of Christians who strictly believe evolution did not occur?

Christian creationists are biblical literalists to some extent or another. Literalism is not required for the faith. All christians or near enough think some form of creation occurred with God involved, but there are some that think the Bible is literally correct in all respects, since it is the revealed word of God. Anything that appears to contradict is down to human error.

There are nonchristian creationists, muslims, jews, and nonabrahamic religion creationists. There are christian noncreationists, too.

Whether you're a christian or not is down to what gods you believe in, if you believe in the god concepts in the bible, you're a christian, fairly simple.

2) Is it fair to say that God created the universe, and consequently created evolution?

It's "fair" in a theistic worldview, a position you have to take on faith to begin with. It certainly contradicts less than inerrantist creationism, as it doesn't seem to contradict any established knowledge.

3) Does anyone know if there are other Christians that believe in evolution?

Yes. Ken Miller is a good resource against ID, for example, and he's a christian. Both the Roman Catholic Church and the Chiurch of England, among others have said evolution does not contradict "Truth," and accept it, more or less. There's statments from religious organisations here: link on the matter. Easily the majority of christians subscribe to churches that endorse evolution.

[sketerpot]

I may be stepping into the kill zone by posting this, but I am certainly curious.

Most of what I would reply has already been said, but I'd like to comment on one thing:

I also believe that evolution is the work of God. Now, I know Mr. Wong would not accept such an answer, because there is no evidence behind it, but I believe that in my faith.

If you believe that God guided evolution in some way, rather than leaving it to work blindly, you should check out Mike's essay on Intelligent Design. Specifically, check out the sections from "Intelligent designer or mindlessly stupid designer?" to the end of the essay; you can safely skip the stuff that comes before it, since that seems irrelevant to what you believe.

[Mange]

Does anyone know if there are other Christians that believe in evolution?

Yes. While I'm not a Christian myself, I know that there are several priests of the Swedish Lutheran church that believes in evolution and says that Genesis is only symbolic and that the scientific explanation is correct.