Force Sub Winter 1941, Russian Front Tanks vs Mechs

[Sea Skimmer]

Gotta love Sci-Fi when the designers don't know jack about real world structures and power requiremetns. It creates things like a Modern RPG team tearing up Battle tech, based only on the KE calcs.

Even more ironic is that the T-90 has the
V-84MS 618 kW (840 hp) four-stroke V-12 Multi-Fuel Engine, which develops
67% of the power of your mythical fusion plant, while the T-80 has a gas
turbine putting out as much as your mythical fusion plant:

http://armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/Tanks/EQP/gtd-1250.html


GTD-1250

Power 1250 hp (920 kW)

Ah Vasiliy's page! Love that page

If we make them T-90M Vladimir tanks with the welded instead of cast turret, they also get the V-92S2 1,000hp engine

Then of course there's to Merk IV's 1500 hp plant..

[SAMAS]

Believe me, that makes a hell of a difference in a fight. Especially when that movement rate is 240km/h, and it and it's teammates are firing 360-880mm missiles at you.

And they only have 8 missiles total each mech, compared to 40 Maingun
rounds in each of my T-90s.

You say that like it makes a difference.

And something the size of a house is still easy to hit, no matter what it does.

Fingers out of your ears, please.

Here, look below, and I'll put this in terms even you can understand.

Then why do we have examples of kills happening at 5 km against
2 m tall tanks, much less 17.5 m tall mecha?

Because modern tanks are presently nowhere near as fast or maneuverable as a Dom in combat? Just a question.

Let me spell it out for you:

Doms and Tanks sight each other at 5 km(since you like to use it so much). The tanks' turrets swivel to engage the tanks as the Doms turn to close the difference(we'll also assume that the range on the Doms' bazookas is shorter than 5km).

The tank crews target their guns, and fire at where they've determined the Mobile Suits will be in 5 seconds from their present position and course.

Unfortunately, the Doms are not keeping on a straight course. They spread out and ziz-zag at random intervals, darting to and from any available cover(but for the sake of this battle, let's say there isn't any). The Dom has turned, altering it's direction 3.2 seconds from the firing, and are now not where the shot is going.

The shot goes wide.

The tankers realize that this is not going to be an easy kill as they load their second shots. The Doms continue to move, slowing down as they reach weapon range, and raise their bazookas. Accuracy is not a concern with their first shots, but they still manage to get basic locks, to put their bazookas in the general area.

Okay, now let's assume that near-misses from their 360mm missiles are not enough to take these tanks down. But to be fair, let's say one of the Doms got a lucky shot, and took one out with a direct hit, or close enough. So with any added difficulty from the clouds of smoke, dust, earth, and fire from the missile detonations(which can be none, if that's the case), The tankers fire again. This time, the Doms are much closer, so they don't lead off as much. Luck is with them, and a Dom goes down. Suddenly, the world goes away in a flash as the hit sets off the Dom's reactor(don't laugh. A federal commander once tried to use the piddly "1150 kW" of a GM's reactor to level a mountain. He only failed because the suits he sent in to die didn't go up when they set the traps off).

Okay, let's not use the worst-case scenario here. The Dom doesn't explode(It's not an everyday occurence, but soldiers in Gundam still take the time to be careful). But the world still goes out in a flash, as the remaining Doms have fired off their Scattering Beam guns. By the time the crews' vision clears, the Mobile Suits are gone.

No, they can't make such a huge Mobile Suit just vanish. Look up.

Yep, that's them up there. Aiming their guns at the thinner top armor of the tanks.

And the characters spend a long time getting a laser lock to get 1 shot
kills

Yeah, if they don't want to nuke the area by setting off the suit's reactor... wait, these aren't mobile suits.

Remember, Shiro and the others were trying to protect the villiage. That idea kinda goes all to hell if that Zaku decided to do an impression of Hiroshima.

BWHAHAHHAHAHA

Shut the fuck up SAMAS, you forget that the Russians LOVE IR.

They were the FIRST to put IR sensors as standard on fighters,
like the SU-27 FLANKER. They spot you from 20 km away and
fire their IR guided missiles from that range and splat you.

*whoosh*

that point went right over your head.

Sure, you can see the sucker(it's 255 meters long. You'd have to be blind not to). It's keeping it away from you, or detecting it early(or behind a mountain or such), that's the bitch. That's the cool thing about Minovsky Particles. When scattered, they block out pretty much everything but light and heat.

And you can go ahead and fire SAMs, Sidewinders, or whatever at it. Just make sure that you have plenty of them. The Zanzibar and the Gau are warships. They're built to take several hits from missiles, guns, and even lighter beam weapons.

Besides, by the time you get within 20km of a Zanzibar, You're already an expanding cloud of hot gas from it's Mega Particle guns.

[Uraniun235]

Yeah, if they don't want to nuke the area by setting off the suit's reactor... wait, these aren't mobile suits.

Remember, Shiro and the others were trying to protect the villiage. That idea kinda goes all to hell if that Zaku decided to do an impression of Hiroshima.

Someone lacks a basic understanding of reactors both fission and fusion.

They don't explode with the force of a nuclear bomb.

[Darth Wong]

Let me spell it out for you:

Doms and Tanks sight each other at 5 km(since you like to use it so much). The tanks' turrets swivel to engage the tanks as the Doms turn to close the difference(we'll also assume that the range on the Doms' bazookas is shorter than 5km).

The tank crews target their guns, and fire at where they've determined the Mobile Suits will be in 5 seconds from their present position and course.

Unfortunately, the Doms are not keeping on a straight course. They spread out and ziz-zag at random intervals, darting to and from any available cover(but for the sake of this battle, let's say there isn't any). The Dom has turned, altering it's direction 3.2 seconds from the firing, and are now not where the shot is going.

The shot goes wide.

Wow, I'm sure you really needed to go through the precise mechanics of how a shot might miss a moving target at long range in such detail. Congratulations. You win the "thanks for pointing out the bloody obvious" award for the week.

Now explain why these giant targets are going to be harder to hit than tanks which can make highway speeds and which have a miniscule fraction of the target profile. Don't you realize that the huge target profile represents a much larger margin of error? The tank can miss its shot by a margin which would easily go far wide of another tank, but still hits a mech.

The tankers realize that this is not going to be an easy kill as they load their second shots. The Doms continue to move, slowing down as they reach weapon range, and raise their bazookas. Accuracy is not a concern with their first shots, but they still manage to get basic locks, to put their bazookas in the general area.

Okay, now let's assume that near-misses from their 360mm missiles are not enough to take these tanks down. But to be fair, let's say one of the Doms got a lucky shot, and took one out with a direct hit, or close enough.

Ah, so the mechanics of the situation make it impossible for the tank to hit the giant mechs as they approach, but "to be fair", those same mechanics make it possible for one of the mechs to hit the relatively tiny tanks at the same range. Interesting definition of "fair".

So with any added difficulty from the clouds of smoke, dust, earth, and fire from the missile detonations(which can be none, if that's the case), The tankers fire again. This time, the Doms are much closer, so they don't lead off as much. Luck is with them, and a Dom goes down. Suddenly, the world goes away in a flash as the hit sets off the Dom's reactor(don't laugh. A federal commander once tried to use the piddly "1150 kW" of a GM's reactor to level a mountain. He only failed because the suits he sent in to die didn't go up when they set the traps off).

Then he was a blithering idiot, and you're leaning in that direction too. A real-life 1.15 MW plasma torch will eat through a small block of steel pretty quickly, but it won't do dick to a mountain. Moreover, fission and fusion reactors do not detonate like nuclear bombs when damaged. And finally, you obviously have no grasp whatsoever of power numbers. 1150 kW is roughly 1500 horsepower; that's the same power output as the engine of a typical monster truck.

Get it yet? Your vaunted mecha are no more powerful than a monster truck!!!!

Okay, let's not use the worst-case scenario here. The Dom doesn't explode(It's not an everyday occurence, but soldiers in Gundam still take the time to be careful). But the world still goes out in a flash, as the remaining Doms have fired off their Scattering Beam guns. By the time the crews' vision clears, the Mobile Suits are gone.

No, they can't make such a huge Mobile Suit just vanish. Look up.

Yep, that's them up there. Aiming their guns at the thinner top armor of the tanks.

And now you're assuming that they rapidly close the distance until they're right on top of the tanks without having been blown away in the meantime. Did it ever occur to you that the tank crews, looking through various enhanced-sighting devices, won't be affected at all by the flash? In your world, a flare-gun can apparently render a tank useless.

Besides, by the time you get within 20km of a Zanzibar, You're already an expanding cloud of hot gas from it's Mega Particle guns.

If in doubt, alter one side's forces so that they have giant low-altitude warships to back them up. This is basically an admission of defeat, you know. You need heavy naval fire support to win this battle, because your mechs will get their asses handed to them.

[MKSheppard]

You say that like it makes a difference.

You have no idea of real combat do you? Your mech
will be empty of ammunition after 4 minutes of combat,
while the tank will fight on for 30 minutes before it has
to go back to reload.

[pointless mecha wankfest crap snipped, forgetting that
in WW2, tanks were capable of scoring kills on moving
tanks at ranges in excess of 2 km]

That's the cool thing about Minovsky Particles. When scattered, they block out pretty much everything but light and heat.

You STUPID FUCK! IR is INFRA-RED radiation....AKA FUCKING HEAT!

You have just shown yourself to be so fucking stupid I wonder how
you can possibly fucking BREATHE!

And you can go ahead and fire SAMs, Sidewinders, or whatever at it. Just make sure that you have plenty of them. The Zanzibar and the Gau are warships. They're built to take several hits from missiles, guns, and even lighter beam weapons.

Wow, a total armament consisting of:

2-barrel main gun x 1
mega particle gun x 4
2-barrel machinegun x 5

Jesus, the SA-12 could smoke it from 6 to 75 km away from you
at speeds of up to 1.7 km./sec, which you cant even intercept.

[Sea Skimmer]

And let's not forget Minovsky Particle Jamming. In short, your SAM's radar is worthless. The only way you're going to be able to launch at them is when you see them, And by then, you're in range of their oh-so-large guns.

Sure, you can see the sucker(it's 255 meters long. You'd have to be blind not to). It's keeping it away from you, or detecting it early(or behind a mountain or such), that's the bitch. That's the cool thing about Minovsky Particles. When scattered, they block out pretty much everything but light and heat.

And you can go ahead and fire SAMs, Sidewinders, or whatever at it. Just make sure that you have plenty of them. The Zanzibar and the Gau are warships. They're built to take several hits from missiles, guns, and even lighter beam weapons.

Besides, by the time you get within 20km of a Zanzibar, You're already an expanding cloud of hot gas from it's Mega Particle guns.

What the fuck? Radar and Infrared systems are LINE OF SIGHT If your behind a mountain or over the horizon they already don’t work. If that’s the only cases where your beloved jamming works then it's clearly a total piece of worthless crap.

The tens of thousands of missiles the Red Army would have on hand should prove more then enough. And of course nuclear warheads where issued for all Army level SAM's.

[MKSheppard]

A modification of the Shturm-V family is the Ataka-V family of missiles used on Mi-28 helicopters and on the latest Ka-50 helicopter. The Vikhr antitank missile is also the main weapon of the Su-39. The aircraft is armed with 16 such missiles The Ataka-V family includes several versions, the basic one being the 9M120 with a shaped-charge warhead against armored targets and its improved version being the 9M220. Addition of a second warhead, a demolition warhead, has created the Fugasnaya [High-Explosive] 9M120F. Another version used against airborne targets is the 9A2200 with a rod warhead. All these missiles of the Ataka-V family have semiautomatic radio command guidance and a 6000 m range, the producer quoting a 0.95 probability of a hit. Missiles of the Malutka-Falanga-Shturm-Ataka families were built by the "Mashinostroyenie" Design Bureau in Izhevsk, which had been established by Boris Shavyrin and is now directed by Sergey Niepobiedimyy.

Maximum effective range
10,000 m

Effective against ground & air targets at converging speeds to 800 km/h.

Penetration
900 mm

Guidance mode
Laser Beam Rider SACLOS

Single-shot hit probability
0.95 probability claimed

[Sea Skimmer]

A modification of the Shturm-V family is the Ataka-V family of missiles used on Mi-28 helicopters and on the latest Ka-50 helicopter. The Vikhr antitank missile is also the main weapon of the Su-39. The aircraft is armed with 16 such missiles The Ataka-V family includes several versions, the basic one being the 9M120 with a shaped-charge warhead against armored targets and its improved version being the 9M220. Addition of a second warhead, a demolition warhead, has created the Fugasnaya [High-Explosive] 9M120F. Another version used against airborne targets is the 9A2200 with a rod warhead. All these missiles of the Ataka-V family have semiautomatic radio command guidance and a 6000 m range, the producer quoting a 0.95 probability of a hit. Missiles of the Malutka-Falanga-Shturm-Ataka families were built by the "Mashinostroyenie" Design Bureau in Izhevsk, which had been established by Boris Shavyrin and is now directed by Sergey Niepobiedimyy.

Maximum effective range
10,000 m

Effective against ground & air targets at converging speeds to 800 km/h.

Penetration
900 mm

Guidance mode
Laser Beam Rider SACLOS

Single-shot hit probability
0.95 probability claimed

I think you have the specifications for two missile families crossed here.

[MKSheppard]

I think you have the specifications for two missile families crossed here.

Tell that to www.fas.org

[Vympel]

A modification of the Shturm-V family is the Ataka-V family of missiles used on Mi-28 helicopters and on the latest Ka-50 helicopter. The Vikhr antitank missile is also the main weapon of the Su-39. The aircraft is armed with 16 such missiles The Ataka-V family includes several versions, the basic one being the 9M120 with a shaped-charge warhead against armored targets and its improved version being the 9M220. Addition of a second warhead, a demolition warhead, has created the Fugasnaya [High-Explosive] 9M120F. Another version used against airborne targets is the 9A2200 with a rod warhead. All these missiles of the Ataka-V family have semiautomatic radio command guidance and a 6000 m range, the producer quoting a 0.95 probability of a hit. Missiles of the Malutka-Falanga-Shturm-Ataka families were built by the "Mashinostroyenie" Design Bureau in Izhevsk, which had been established by Boris Shavyrin and is now directed by Sergey Niepobiedimyy.

Maximum effective range
10,000 m

Effective against ground & air targets at converging speeds to 800 km/h.

Penetration
900 mm

Guidance mode
Laser Beam Rider SACLOS

Single-shot hit probability
0.95 probability claimed

True on all counts except for names. The stats given are for the Vikhr-M. The Vikhr-M is used by the Ka-50/Ka-52, while the Ataka series (consisting of radio-command guided 6km range Ataka and milimeter wave radar guided 8km range Ataka-M) is used on the Mi-28N (whose mast-mounted radar guidses the Ataka-M). The Ataka is actually part of the modernized Shturm-VM system.

[Vympel]

Fas.org/man is ok but they are VERY OFTEN wrong. They did get em crossed. They hardly ever correct their errors unfortunately.

[Sea Skimmer]

I think you have the specifications for two missile families crossed here.

Tell that to www.fas.org

That explains it. FAS is a useful source of pictures, not information.

[Vympel]

That explains it. FAS is a useful source of pictures, not information.

LOL

You know they once put up a photoshopped Eurofighter and held it up to be a new Chinese fighter?

[Sea Skimmer]

That explains it. FAS is a useful source of pictures, not information.

LOL

You know they once put up a photoshopped Eurofighter and held it up to be a new Chinese fighter?

I've seen it and heard that. Evidently it was originally put up by some Chinese site and was said to be the J-10. A lot of edited pictures of that plane have been floating around, as in all of them. The ones that surfaced of its first flight in 1998 reportly where total fakes and the plane may not have flown till 2000.

[Vympel]

Vikhr-M ATGM:

Used by the Ka-50/52 series and Su-25TM (also known as Su-39).

Range: 10,000m
Penetration: 900mm RHA
Guidance: Laser

(industrial index either 9M121 or 9A4172)

9M120 Ataka ATGM

Range: 6,000m (5,000m when fired from Shturm-S tank destroyer)
Penetration: 950-1,000mm RHA
Guidance: Radio-command

9M120F: thermobaric version.

9A2200: expanding rod warhead for engaging airborne targets such as enemy helicopters.

Ataka-M: revealed 2001/2002. New armament of Mi-28N.
Range: 8,000m
Penetration: probably the same as original Ataka
Guidance: Millimetre Wave Radar
(industrial index unknown)

Ataka-T: revealed as missile armament of BMPT.
Range: unknown.
Penetration: probably the same as original Ataka
Guidance: laser
(industrial index unknown)

9K114 Shturm-V system originally deployed on Mi-24V HIND-E and Mi-24P HIND-F gunships, equipped with

9M114 Kokon ATGM:

Range: 5,000m
Guidance: Radio Command
Penetration: 750mm RHA penetration

9M114F: thermobaric version
9M114M1: 6km version
9M114M2: 7km version

Note: the M1/M2 are both longer than 1832mm for the autoloader of the 9P149 Shturm-S tank destroyer (MT-LB chassis), and so are only deployed on the Shturm-V: i.e. helicopters.

The Shturm-VM system is used by the Mi-28A/N. It is armed with Atakas rather than Kokons.

[SAMAS]

Let me spell it out for you:

Doms and Tanks sight each other at 5 km(since you like to use it so much). The tanks' turrets swivel to engage the tanks as the Doms turn to close the difference(we'll also assume that the range on the Doms' bazookas is shorter than 5km).

The tank crews target their guns, and fire at where they've determined the Mobile Suits will be in 5 seconds from their present position and course.

Unfortunately, the Doms are not keeping on a straight course. They spread out and ziz-zag at random intervals, darting to and from any available cover(but for the sake of this battle, let's say there isn't any). The Dom has turned, altering it's direction 3.2 seconds from the firing, and are now not where the shot is going.

The shot goes wide.

Wow, I'm sure you really needed to go through the precise mechanics of how a shot might miss a moving target at long range in such detail. Congratulations. You win the "thanks for pointing out the bloody obvious" award for the week.

Now explain why these giant targets are going to be harder to hit than tanks which can make highway speeds and which have a miniscule fraction of the target profile. Don't you realize that the huge target profile represents a much larger margin of error? The tank can miss its shot by a margin which would easily go far wide of another tank, but still hits a mech.

Lord Wong, slow down, and pay attention to the context of this part of the thread.

Now, this part here is in counter to the statement that apparently the Tanks will only engage the Mobile Suits at their maximum ranges. now, it was stated that these guns have a muzzle velocity of 5 km per second, so, as Sheppard said, they would not reach their targets for about 5 seconds.

5 seconds is more than enough time for a Dom pilot, even not seeing the shot coming, to change his course on a normal zig-zag or move to cover. Yes, you have a bigger target, which reduces your margin of error, But at the same time, your target is also much faster and maneverable(no, not because it's a mecha, but because it's got a set of jet engines in it's legs and skirt armor, and is essentially a giant man-shaped GEV), which jacks up you margin of error again. It does not matter that your target is bigger if it's fast and maneuverable enough to not be where you put your shot by the time it's supposed to reach the target. Yes, it would be an easier target, If the target was standing still, or moving in a predictable pattern. A Dom in combat does neither. Yes, a Dom is the size of a small office building, but it's a fast and maneuverable office building.

Now, yes, this advantage goes down as the target gets closer, but that was not the point. My point was to say that long-range shooting at a Dom, and even a few other Mobile Suits, is not going to work.

The tankers realize that this is not going to be an easy kill as they load their second shots. The Doms continue to move, slowing down as they reach weapon range, and raise their bazookas. Accuracy is not a concern with their first shots, but they still manage to get basic locks, to put their bazookas in the general area.

Okay, now let's assume that near-misses from their 360mm missiles are not enough to take these tanks down. But to be fair, let's say one of the Doms got a lucky shot, and took one out with a direct hit, or close enough.

Ah, so the mechanics of the situation make it impossible for the tank to hit the giant mechs as they approach, but "to be fair", those same mechanics make it possible for one of the mechs to hit the relatively tiny tanks at the same range. Interesting definition of "fair".

Considering we're comparing sabot rounds to area-effect missiles, yes, it's fair. If you like, you can take out the lucky hit. It's doesn't affect the point any, and was essentially fluff text.

And I really don't know why you're complaining about fair in this thread...

So with any added difficulty from the clouds of smoke, dust, earth, and fire from the missile detonations(which can be none, if that's the case), The tankers fire again. This time, the Doms are much closer, so they don't lead off as much. Luck is with them, and a Dom goes down. Suddenly, the world goes away in a flash as the hit sets off the Dom's reactor(don't laugh. A federal commander once tried to use the piddly "1150 kW" of a GM's reactor to level a mountain. He only failed because the suits he sent in to die didn't go up when they set the traps off).

Then he was a blithering idiot, and you're leaning in that direction too. A real-life 1.15 MW plasma torch will eat through a small block of steel pretty quickly, but it won't do dick to a mountain. Moreover, fission and fusion reactors do not detonate like nuclear bombs when damaged. And finally, you obviously have no grasp whatsoever of power numbers. 1150 kW is roughly 1500 horsepower; that's the same power output as the engine of a typical monster truck.

Get it yet? Your vaunted mecha are no more powerful than a monster truck!!!!

Why do you think I put the number in quoteation marks? The official numbers given in publications are lower than thier performance in the anime themselves. Best example is the performace of Norris Packard and his MS-07B-3 Gouf Custom in 08thMST episode 10. I might be wrong, so I'm really asking you: Do you think it could've shoved over a section of highway at least twice as long as it's height, and about 20 feet thick, one handed, with a reactor out put of 1034 kW?

Or why when one of the abovementioned GMs, with the reactor output mentioned above, was in danger of melting down, the entire command center, despite being several miles from the mountain in question, were bracing themselves for a shockwave?

Or how two shots from the Apsalus III. whose combined reactors only come up to 3660 kW, blows through a mountain in one shot(the diameter of the hole, BTW, is about half the height of the mountain itself)? You said it yourself, that kind of firepower shouldn't do jack shit to a mountain, yet it blew through mountains on two seperate occasions on episode 11.

So what's up with that? I'll leave the conclusions to you, as they'll probably be better than mine.

Okay, let's not use the worst-case scenario here. The Dom doesn't explode(It's not an everyday occurence, but soldiers in Gundam still take the time to be careful). But the world still goes out in a flash, as the remaining Doms have fired off their Scattering Beam guns. By the time the crews' vision clears, the Mobile Suits are gone.

No, they can't make such a huge Mobile Suit just vanish. Look up.

Yep, that's them up there. Aiming their guns at the thinner top armor of the tanks.

And now you're assuming that they rapidly close the distance until they're right on top of the tanks without having been blown away in the meantime. Did it ever occur to you that the tank crews, looking through various enhanced-sighting devices, won't be affected at all by the flash? In your world, a flare-gun can apparently render a tank useless.

A Scattering Beam Gun is not just a bright flash of light. It's a low level, wide-angle particle-beam blast that temporarily messes with all optics. It lasts only about a second, but that's long enough for a Dom to move to another position, jump, or attack.

Besides, by the time you get within 20km of a Zanzibar, You're already an expanding cloud of hot gas from it's Mega Particle guns.

If in doubt, alter one side's forces so that they have giant low-altitude warships to back them up. This is basically an admission of defeat, you know. You need heavy naval fire support to win this battle, because your mechs will get their asses handed to them.

[/quote]

Does that mean that I can accept Yosmite's concession now? This entire scenario has been set up with one handicap after another for the Mobile Suits, except one:

Actually the substitution was one for one.

The Nazi's have as many Zeon Mechs from the first War as they had tanks. Since I added Hinds for fighters, the Nazi's have their Stuka's replaced with Zeon air power as well.

Considering that the entire scenario has been tailor made to give the Mobile Suits just about every disadvantage possible, I think I'm entitled to take the one loophole I found and run with it.

But if you want to press the issue, we can take out the Zanzibar, as it's not a dedicated atmospheric craft. That still leaves the Zeon/Germans with the Dopp fighter, Dodai YS and Dodai II bombers, Gunship Heli gunships, Luggun recon planes, and of course, the Gau carrier/bomber.

[HemlockGrey]

it was stated that these guns have a muzzle velocity of 5 km per second, so, as Sheppard said, they would not reach their targets for about 5 seconds.

Now, I know very little about military hardware, but if the muzzle propels the shot forward at 5km/sec, and the maximum range is 5km, wouldn't it take one second for the shell to hit the target?

Does that mean that I can accept Yosmite's concession now? This entire scenario has been set up with one handicap after another for the Mobile Suits, except one:

So you admit that the mobile suits are worth dick when engaging tanks, then?

[Sea Skimmer]

Let me spell it out for you:

Doms and Tanks sight each other at 5 km(since you like to use it so much). The tanks' turrets swivel to engage the tanks as the Doms turn to close the difference(we'll also assume that the range on the Doms' bazookas is shorter than 5km).

The tank crews target their guns, and fire at where they've determined the Mobile Suits will be in 5 seconds from their present position and course.

Unfortunately, the Doms are not keeping on a straight course. They spread out and ziz-zag at random intervals, darting to and from any available cover(but for the sake of this battle, let's say there isn't any). The Dom has turned, altering it's direction 3.2 seconds from the firing, and are now not where the shot is going.

The shot goes wide.

Wow, I'm sure you really needed to go through the precise mechanics of how a shot might miss a moving target at long range in such detail. Congratulations. You win the "thanks for pointing out the bloody obvious" award for the week.

Now explain why these giant targets are going to be harder to hit than tanks which can make highway speeds and which have a miniscule fraction of the target profile. Don't you realize that the huge target profile represents a much larger margin of error? The tank can miss its shot by a margin which would easily go far wide of another tank, but still hits a mech.

Lord Wong, slow down, and pay attention to the context of this part of the thread.

Now, this part here is in counter to the statement that apparently the Tanks will only engage the Mobile Suits at their maximum ranges. now, it was stated that these guns have a muzzle velocity of 5 km per second, so, as Sheppard said, they would not reach their targets for about 5 seconds.

5 seconds is more than enough time for a Dom pilot, even not seeing the shot coming, to change his course on a normal zig-zag or move to cover. Yes, you have a bigger target, which reduces your margin of error, But at the same time, your target is also much faster and maneverable(no, not because it's a mecha, but because it's got a set of jet engines in it's legs and skirt armor, and is essentially a giant man-shaped GEV), which jacks up you margin of error again. It does not matter that your target is bigger if it's fast and maneuverable enough to not be where you put your shot by the time it's supposed to reach the target. Yes, it would be an easier target, If the target was standing still, or moving in a predictable pattern. A Dom in combat does neither. Yes, a Dom is the size of a small office building, but it's a fast and maneuverable office building.

Now, yes, this advantage goes down as the target gets closer, but that was not the point. My point was to say that long-range shooting at a Dom, and even a few other Mobile Suits, is not going to work.

Know what a guided missile is? Notice that that is what the T-90 uses for long range fire, not shells. The AT-11 has the performance and accuracy to bring down moving helicopters, hitting a mecha with thirty times the cross section moving slower would be child's play.

[The Yosemite Bear]

I wonder on a side note:

Wild Weasel (Intruder loaded with Radiation homic Missiles. (For Samas it's seeker head's home in on RADARION EMMISSIONS, reactorer, Radar units, Radio Transmitters etc))

So what happens with an Airstrike of that sort?

[SAMAS]

it was stated that these guns have a muzzle velocity of 5 km per second, so, as Sheppard said, they would not reach their targets for about 5 seconds.

Now, I know very little about military hardware, but if the muzzle propels the shot forward at 5km/sec, and the maximum range is 5km, wouldn't it take one second for the shell to hit the target?

Hmm.. I think either Sheppard or I misquotd that...

Does that mean that I can accept Yosmite's concession now? This entire scenario has been set up with one handicap after another for the Mobile Suits, except one:

So you admit that the mobile suits are worth dick when engaging tanks, then?

In flat, open, muddy terrain intended to slow them down, and the tanks not only have ground and air suppourt, but also outnumber the suits nine-to-one? yes.

[Sea Skimmer]

I wonder on a side note:

Wild Weasel (Intruder loaded with Radiation homic Missiles. (For Samas it's seeker head's home in on RADARION EMMISSIONS, reactorer, Radar units, Radio Transmitters etc))

So what happens with an Airstrike of that sort?

Cell phones and a couple other things with the right programing as well...

The aircraft grade aluminum construction of the mecha would not stand up well to several hundred supersonic tungsten cubes hitting it. However Russian ARM's use a more conventional HE-Blast warhead. Still going to be effective with such an underpowered and thus under armored mecha. The damage would easily be crippling.


Russian SEAD was less flexible then its Western counterpart. Their ARM's have to be preset to hit a specific type of emission. However with only one target offering its self that’s not going to be a problem.

But the scenario does not give the Russians modern fixed wing. If it did with would be beyond slaughter.

[The Yosemite Bear]

I always thought that would be a great contradiction, You can't use radar becasue of the Minoski radation james everything (It could be anywhere in the area) However since the Minoski particles are radiation, ARM's should make short work of the enemy.

[Sea Skimmer]

I always thought that would be a great contradiction, You can't use radar becasue of the Minoski radation james everything (It could be anywhere in the area) However since the Minoski particles are radiation, ARM's should make short work of the enemy.

It would depend on what kind of radiation it is. A normal ARM can only detect and attack targets in a fraction of the EM spectrum.

[MKSheppard]

In flat, open, muddy terrain intended to slow them down, and the tanks not only have ground and air suppourt, but also outnumber the suits nine-to-one? yes.

Moron. The Russians in December 1941 only had a 2-1 ratio of tanks against
the Germans, and flat, open, and muddy ground describes russia to a tee.

BTW, a regular person has a ground pressure of 8 PSI.

A M1A2 Abrams at 70 tons has a GP of 15.6 PSI.

A Mecha weighing 70 tons has a GP of 90+ PSI

The tanks get slowed down by the mud too, but not like the mecha

[MKSheppard]

Lord Wong, slow down, and pay attention to the context of this part of the thread.

Now, this part here is in counter to the statement that apparently the Tanks will only engage the Mobile Suits at their maximum ranges. now, it was stated that these guns have a muzzle velocity of 5 km per second, so, as Sheppard said, they would not reach their targets for about 5 seconds.

Wow! a 1 second delay!

Your beloved Mecha have a sensor suite that only reaches out to 3.2 km, while
the T-90 can effectively enage targets 2m high at these ranges:

Effective range
direct fire vs. 2m high target
HEAT 1010 m
APFSDS 2120 m
with FCS
HEAT/APFSDS 4000 m
HEF 5000 m
HEF indirect 10000 m

Wow, and that's for a 2m tall tank, not a 17.5m tall mecha