The Culture vs DBZ

[The Nomad]

Who wins ?

And effectors are not likely to work.
You need a brain to be affected.

[haas mark]

Form what I've heard, the Culture would win. Easily. And although the DBZers might not have much of a brain, they have enough to perform th baisc functions of life. *shrug*

[Yogi]

Most DBZers need air, which could be a problem. However, if the DBZers get more than two seconds of preperation, they can simply have Mr. Buu absorb everyone.

He'll have the power of ALL the DBZ warriors, no need to breath, and is a ompletely magical being with no "brain" or any other organs to speak of. Plus he turns things into chocolate and can nuke galaxies.

[Faram]

They don't have 2 seconds.

Fleet battles are started and ower in miliseconds.

DBZ are so gridfired

[consequences]

And every energy attack they throw is effectorised as it leaves their hands. They die pathetically, and unmourned. YAAAYY!

[Xon]

Most DBZers need air, which could be a problem. However, if the DBZers get more than two seconds of preperation, they can simply have Mr. Buu absorb everyone.

He'll have the power of ALL the DBZ warriors, no need to breath, and is a ompletely magical being with no "brain" or any other organs to speak of. Plus he turns things into chocolate and can nuke galaxies.

However dont those galaxies only have 50 million stars? (IIRC DBZ universe is very very small, about the size of out galaxy)

[Yogi]

However dont those galaxies only have 50 million stars? (IIRC DBZ universe is very very small, about the size of out galaxy)

The Universe is small, with only sixteen galaxies at it's height (only 4 left after Buu went on his rampage) However, there is no indication that the individual galaxies are somehow smaller.

[Connor MacLeod]

Frankly, I tend to think the DBZ galaxy gets overestimated.. (certainly they're powerful, and most people in personal combat with them would be fucked..) but pro-DBZ'ers always argue as if the DBZ ppl regularly toss planet-shattering attacks in common combat. At best they'd maybe be tossing kiloton-low megaton energy attacks (definietley not enough to cause any significant global changes or such.)

[Shinova]

Frankly, I tend to think the DBZ galaxy gets overestimated.. (certainly they're powerful, and most people in personal combat with them would be fucked..) but pro-DBZ'ers always argue as if the DBZ ppl regularly toss planet-shattering attacks in common combat. At best they'd maybe be tossing kiloton-low megaton energy attacks (definietley not enough to cause any significant global changes or such.)

Can't we say the same about turbolasers?

[Yogi]

Frankly, I tend to think the DBZ galaxy gets overestimated.. (certainly they're powerful, and most people in personal combat with them would be fucked..) but pro-DBZ'ers always argue as if the DBZ ppl regularly toss planet-shattering attacks in common combat. At best they'd maybe be tossing kiloton-low megaton energy attacks (definietley not enough to cause any significant global changes or such.)

Leeets see now.
In Dragonball, Master Roshi has a PL of around 139. In the middle of a tournament, it became necessary that he blow up a moon. He did so, then continues to fight as if nothing had happened.
In Dragonball Z Vegeta declares that he doesn't like Earth and would rather have it destroyed. Goku, a person who is stupid at everything except things to do with battle, takes his threat VERY seriously. Vegeta's PL is at 18,000
Form Two Freiza's PL is at 1,000,000. Later forms of freaking Goten could eat Form Two Freiza for breakfast, naked, starving, drugged, and half asleep. Hell, Form Two Freiza's most powerful attack wouldn't have been able to harm Form Four Freiza's max power, and the LOWEST form of SSJ is stronger than that.
It only gets worse from there.

As for speed, when Master Roshi decided to nuke the moon, the moon dissapeared in short order. To assume a VERY liberal estimate on the time it took for the blast to travel to the moon, let's say 20 second. That means that it was traveling at approx. 1/20 the speed of light.
Assuming linear speed (speed actually increases faster than liniarly with respect to PL) Form 2 Freiza would be firing blasts over 350 times the speed of light. Now take everything I said about being outclassed in power and apply it to speed.

Yeah, DBZ people are insane. You get the basic ball park figure, so I don't think official calcs are necessary (though I'll provide some if you insist). Deal with it.

[Ghost Rider]

Gridfire would end their existence faster than it would take Buu to contemplate the thought of cookie.

[Shinova]

Gridfire would end their existence faster than it would take Buu to contemplate the thought of cookie.

How much of Buu must remain for him to regenerate?

[XaLEv]

How much of Buu must remain for him to regenerate?

More than Gridfire would leave.

[Yogi]

Buu can be blown to vapor, and still pull himself together.

BTW, as for reaction time.

1: Piccolo, boosting his PL to 1,300 fired a Makkankosappo at Radditz.
2: Radditz was so shocked that he would be able to boost his PL this high, that when the blast was around 5 meters away, he was still standing stock still.
3: He dodged it anyway.
4: Judging by previous PL calcs, The blast would be traveling at .47 times the speed of light.

How fast does it take something moving at .47 times the speed of light to cover 5 meters: 0.000046 seconds.

How many times faster is Form 2 Freiza faster than Radditz? Around 830 times faster.

What would be the ceiling on Form 2 Freiza's reaction time? 0.000000055 seconds. In other words, 55 picoseconds.

This is versus, miliseconds you say? So essencially the DBZer's picoseconds vs. the Culture's miliseconds?

[XaLEv]

Buu can be blown to vapor, and still pull himself together.

BTW, as for reaction time.

1: Piccolo, boosting his PL to 1,300 fired a Makkankosappo at Radditz.
2: Radditz was so shocked that he would be able to boost his PL this high, that when the blast was around 5 meters away, he was still standing stock still.
3: He dodged it anyway.
4: Judging by previous PL calcs, The blast would be traveling at .47 times the speed of light.

How fast does it take something moving at .47 times the speed of light to cover 5 meters: 0.000046 seconds.

How many times faster is Form 2 Freiza faster than Radditz? Around 830 times faster.

What would be the ceiling on Form 2 Freiza's reaction time? 0.000000055 seconds. In other words, 55 picoseconds.

Where do you get these figures from?

This is versus, miliseconds you say? So essencially the DBZer's picoseconds vs. the Culture's miliseconds?

Entire battles take place on millisecond scales, with the individual actions taking nanoseconds.

[Ghost Rider]

When one doesn't need to be in the same galaxy still fire one's weapon and obliterate the other...who care the time span between pico and milli?

Honestly, if DBZ cannot see the offending foe, they have never demonstrated the ability to fight them.

They rely upon at least LoS...The Culture doesn't.

So who cares who's had to eye contact is better...

[Yogi]

Where do you get these figures from?

1: Piccolo, boosting his PL to 1,300 fired a Makkankosappo at Radditz. (Dragonball Z Manga, Viz version, Volume 1. Stated by Radditz's scouter)
2: Radditz was so shocked that he would be able to boost his PL this high, that when the blast was around 5 meters away, he was still standing stock still. (Dragonball Z Manga, Viz version, Volume 1. Seen in picture)
3: He dodged it anyway. (Dragonball Z Manga, Viz version, Volume 1. Seen in picture)
4: Judging by previous PL calcs, The blast would be traveling at .47 times the speed of light. (Previous Post)

How fast does it take something moving at .47 times the speed of light to cover 5 meters: 0.000046 seconds. (Math)

How many times faster is Form 2 Freiza faster than Radditz? Around 830 times faster. (Form 2 Freiza's Power Level stated at One Million)

What would be the ceiling on Form 2 Freiza's reaction time? 0.000000055 seconds. In other words, 55 picoseconds.[/quote] (Math)

Entire battles take place on millisecond scales, with the individual actions taking nanoseconds.

Form 2 Freiza is still faster.

The reason I'm using Form 2 Freiza is that he has the most powerful PL actually stated. After that, comes the World Guide PL figure for SSJ Goku when he fought Freiza (15,000,000) which is accepted as canon by some people. Beyond that, I will have to use the tricky method of PL guessing, which I don't want to do. However, anyone who has seen the show will get the basic ballpark estimate that Buu is beyond Form 2 Freiza as Form 2 Freiza is beyond Muten Roshi.

[XaLEv]

When one doesn't need to be in the same galaxy still fire one's weapon and obliterate the other...who care the time span between pico and milli?

And you get this where? The figures I've seen say that Culture ranges are no more than a couple thousand light years.

Honestly, if DBZ cannot see the offending foe, they have never demonstrated the ability to fight them.

They rely upon at least LoS...The Culture doesn't.

So who cares who's had to eye contact is better...

Not to mention the ability of Culture warships to attack from hyperspace.

[Yogi]

When one doesn't need to be in the same galaxy still fire one's weapon and obliterate the other...who care the time span between pico and milli?

Honestly, if DBZ cannot see the offending foe, they have never demonstrated the ability to fight them.

They rely upon at least LoS...The Culture doesn't.

So who cares who's had to eye contact is better...

Because Goku (and Buu after he absorbs Goku) can lock onto energy and teleport, and that Buu will have plenty of time after the starting bell (pico vs. mili) to absorb his friends. Buu will simply teleport to whatevery Galaxy is attacking it and destroy it.

[Connor MacLeod]

Frankly, I tend to think the DBZ galaxy gets overestimated.. (certainly they're powerful, and most people in personal combat with them would be fucked..) but pro-DBZ'ers always argue as if the DBZ ppl regularly toss planet-shattering attacks in common combat. At best they'd maybe be tossing kiloton-low megaton energy attacks (definietley not enough to cause any significant global changes or such.)

Leeets see now.
In Dragonball, Master Roshi has a PL of around 139. In the middle of a tournament, it became necessary that he blow up a moon. He did so, then continues to fight as if nothing had happened.
In Dragonball Z Vegeta declares that he doesn't like Earth and would rather have it destroyed. Goku, a person who is stupid at everything except things to do with battle, takes his threat VERY seriously. Vegeta's PL is at 18,000
Form Two Freiza's PL is at 1,000,000. Later forms of freaking Goten could eat Form Two Freiza for breakfast, naked, starving, drugged, and half asleep. Hell, Form Two Freiza's most powerful attack wouldn't have been able to harm Form Four Freiza's max power, and the LOWEST form of SSJ is stronger than that.
It only gets worse from there.

As for speed, when Master Roshi decided to nuke the moon, the moon dissapeared in short order. To assume a VERY liberal estimate on the time it took for the blast to travel to the moon, let's say 20 second. That means that it was traveling at approx. 1/20 the speed of light.
Assuming linear speed (speed actually increases faster than liniarly with respect to PL) Form 2 Freiza would be firing blasts over 350 times the speed of light. Now take everything I said about being outclassed in power and apply it to speed.

Yeah, DBZ people are insane. You get the basic ball park figure, so I don't think official calcs are necessary (though I'll provide some if you insist). Deal with it.

Of course, you take the more extreme, upper-end capabilities and somehow infer these are going to be typical, sustainable actions. The majority of fights in DBZ do NOT involve this elvel of sustained output. We don't see them wiping out continents in single hits. We never see massive shifts in climate, dust and ash thrown up into the atmosphere, etc. In short we never see much in the way of lasting side effects in the majority of attacks (remember that the energy would have to go SOMEWHERE.)

For that matter:

- As I recall, Piccolo destroyed the moon in DBZ as well. Its destruction as well had no significant impact on the planet as I recall (tidal or otherwise). Even more interestingly, we never saw any sort of signiticant consequences implied from this level of destruction (debris hitting the earth, etc.)

<For the record, the Earth's moon is ~3500 km in diameter. Assuming gravity of 1/10th that of Earth - I think its really only 1/6th - we're getting an energy level of around 4.6e28-1e29 joules required to scatter its mass. Naturally that energy used in scattering its mass must go somewhere, and at least SOME of it would hit the Earth, even if the debris is not moving all that fast.

At the minimum escape velocity for the moon, some 2.4 km/s, it would take about 44-45 hours to impact the Earth, or less than two days. I don't recall hearing about the loss of any continents, or any near-mass extinction events in DBZ or DB during either event. CAre to explain where that energy went?)

- Interesting also that you mention Frieza. When Goku went Super Saiyan for the first time, Frieza attempted to destroy the planet to deprive him of breathable oxygen. As I remember, Frieza's blast needed over five minutes to drill through the crust of the planet to hit its core before the planet blew up. Care to explain, if they are tossing around planet shattering energies, why this was so? If Frieza's bolt was capable of destroying a planet, and carried that much energy, he should have decimated the planet IMMEDIATELY.

- As for Vegeta - as I recall, he could be cut/injured by Yajirobi's sword, which Krillin had intended to use to kill him. Care to explain this if they are as powerful as you claim?

For that matter, Krillin was nowhere near Nappa's power level, yet his disc attack was definitely a threat to him.

As for "speed" you're talking about the propogation rate of the blast in Master Roshi's case. The target in question is largely immobile, and you're assuming 20 seconds. At best, evne if we assume lightspeed propogation (but since we can SEE the bolt propogating, its apparently not moving at lightspeed.) we're still talking about a few light seconds range. Culture weapons are effectively FTL and measure ranges in the light years, IIRC.

And I would like to see some proof (episode name, description of event, facts that prove FTL propogation of bolts) for Frieza's stated "attack speed."


I suppose we could touch on other aspects - the need for those ridiculously long "charge up" efforts for attacks, the tendency for your average DBZ'er to stand there looking heroic and grunting as if constipated for 3+ episodes in a row as the enemy wipes out all life in the galaxy before actually THROWING a punch...

Or the problems mentioned about going "super saiyan" in the Buu saga (the problems with SSJ3, the Old Kai talking about the dangerous side effects of fusing while SSJ/SSJ2/SSJ3, etc.) But lets keep it simple, since its fairly obvious you have no grasp of analytical methodology and simply adhere to the common shallow-DBZ fanboy "point at the planet destruction and point at power levels" method of analysis.

[Connor MacLeod]

When one doesn't need to be in the same galaxy still fire one's weapon and obliterate the other...who care the time span between pico and milli?

Honestly, if DBZ cannot see the offending foe, they have never demonstrated the ability to fight them.

They rely upon at least LoS...The Culture doesn't.

So who cares who's had to eye contact is better...

Because Goku (and Buu after he absorbs Goku) can lock onto energy and teleport, and that Buu will have plenty of time after the starting bell (pico vs. mili) to absorb his friends. Buu will simply teleport to whatevery Galaxy is attacking it and destroy it.

Have they demonstrated any sort of ability to detect energy at long ranges and teleport? And if so, provide the proof.

[Connor MacLeod]

Frankly, I tend to think the DBZ galaxy gets overestimated.. (certainly they're powerful, and most people in personal combat with them would be fucked..) but pro-DBZ'ers always argue as if the DBZ ppl regularly toss planet-shattering attacks in common combat. At best they'd maybe be tossing kiloton-low megaton energy attacks (definietley not enough to cause any significant global changes or such.)

Can't we say the same about turbolasers?

Not really. TLs are typically mounted in the dozens on large mile long capital ships and merely render planets uninhabitable.

Note that as well, most battles in SW where TLS are employed occur in space, not in an atmosphere. Atmospheres would exhibit noticable effects of large quantties of energy were being tossed around (read Mike's BDZ pages or the "planet killers" page to get an idea of what I am talking bout.)

[Connor MacLeod]

1: Piccolo, boosting his PL to 1,300 fired a Makkankosappo at Radditz.
(Dragonball Z Manga, Viz version, Volume 1. Stated by Radditz's scouter)
2: Radditz was so shocked that he would be able to boost his PL this high, that when the blast was around 5 meters away, he was still standing stock still. (Dragonball Z Manga, Viz version, Volume 1. Seen in picture)
3: He dodged it anyway. (Dragonball Z Manga, Viz version, Volume 1. Seen in picture)
4: Judging by previous PL calcs, The blast would be traveling at .47 times the speed of light. (Previous Post)

How fast does it take something moving at .47 times the speed of light to cover 5 meters: 0.000046 seconds. (Math)

are you talking .47c or 47c? And if so, what are you basing this on? As I recall most every bolt, beam, pulse, or such in DBZ is always clearly visible. This makes it kinda hard for them to be FTL, and questionable as relatavistic.

And for that matter, what the fuck are thse "Power level" calcs you keep tossing about? Do you think you're given special dispensation to use the "no math" mentality?

How many times faster is Form 2 Freiza faster than Radditz? Around 830 times faster. (Form 2 Freiza's Power Level stated at One Million)

What would be the ceiling on Form 2 Freiza's reaction time? 0.000000055 seconds. In other words, 55 picoseconds.

(Math)
[/quote]

This assumes that differences in reaction time are equally proportional to increases in power level. For that matter, is reaction time affected by power level at ALL?

Entire battles take place on millisecond scales, with the individual actions taking nanoseconds.

Form 2 Freiza is still faster.

The reason I'm using Form 2 Freiza is that he has the most powerful PL actually stated. After that, comes the World Guide PL figure for SSJ Goku when he fought Freiza (15,000,000) which is accepted as canon by some people. Beyond that, I will have to use the tricky method of PL guessing, which I don't want to do. However, anyone who has seen the show will get the basic ballpark estimate that Buu is beyond Form 2 Freiza as Form 2 Freiza is beyond Muten Roshi.[/quote]

Er.. shouldn't you actually justify WHAT this power level bullshit actually measures, and give some actual equivalents we CAN measure, before making up some of these bullshit assumptions?

[consequences]

Your picosecond reaction theory bullshit is also shredded by the fact that normal DBZ humans can see and react to some dramatic events during a fight, and can hear what the fighters are saying. Attacks which characters believe kill their opponents don't even have kiloton level effects on their immediate surroundings. The simple act of powering up at the levels you are describing should obliterate the planet.
By the way, I have a theory which reconciles the lack of damage in the later series to the planet Earth. I am not going to help the mindless throngs of DBZ fans out with it until they start showing more intelligence than the average person portrayed on the show, i.e. more than a lemming that has been rejected by mainstream lemming society as being to dumb and suicidal to be allowed to live.

[Yogi]

Re: Destruction of Moon.
In DBZ-physics, energy can be controlled even after it has left the user. A good example of this is Goku making time-bomb Kamehamehas that fire only when he wants them to (when he is several hundred meters away) controlling the path of the Kamehamehas in flight, Freiza controlling his energy discs remotely etc. The energy went away from the earth.

Re: Freiza and the Planet
Freiza stated that the 5 min things was intentional. Remember, Freiza wanted some time to get away from the planrt as well. Besides, Freiza said that the blast has "destroyed the core" meaning that it had already drilled through all of the earth.

Re: Vegeta vs. Yajirobe
When people put their KI in their weapons, it becomes stronger. When Trunks was fighting the Androids, you can hee both him AND his sword glowing with the Super Saiya-jin aura (History of Trunks)

Re: Kuririn vs. Nappa
The Ki-en-zan is a specialty attack designed to take out people several times more powerful than onself. It's advantage is that it cuts, which is diffrent from most DBZ attacks. It is also rather slow, it's weak points. Since the human fighters were weak, they develop better techniques to make up for it (The Kiko-hou is a good example)

Re: Roshi and the Moon and blast speed
Roshi's blasts are not that fast. However, the Culture will not be fighting against Roshi, but against Buu, Vegetto, and the like. I'm just using him as a benchmark.

Re:Freiza and his fast attacks
I'm using this little thing called Math. If people at increased PL obviously fight at increased speed, but the combat is the same relativ to each other, then attack speed, reaction speed, movement speed, attack power, defense power etc. all must increase proportionally with each other.

Re: Power up
Not in the Manga

Re: Detecting energy at Long Ranges
Goku detected where New Namek was, and he had no idea where it was.

Re: .47 c or 47 c
POINT four seven c

Re: Seeing blasts
In the Manga, which is more canon than the Anime, the action is measures in panels, not seconds. Therefore, there is no real way to measure how fast they're going. You see someone punch in one panel, another person goes flying in the next, no real way to tell how much time passes just from that. In the Anime, they actually have to SHOW the action.

Re: Power Level
Freiza & co. have these little devices called "Scouters" that analyze how much energy a person is protucing, and spite out a number on how powerful that person is. Even people watching the Dubbed DBZ know about Power Level, so do a search on it.

Re: Reaction Time and Power Level
Someone more powerful has regularly been shown as traveling much faster than people of lower level and doing everything (reacting, fighting, dodging) at increased speed. Please watch the show, and give me a nickel every time someone says "He was so fast, I couldn't even follow his movements!" I really need some extra cash.

Re: Normal Humans and Dramatic Events
Remember what the camera caught of the Goku vs. Perfect Cell fight? Nothing, nothing, nothing, nothings and . . . NOTHING. It could catch the fighters standing, and the other Z fighters (as well as the audience) can see the action, but if you actually saw the section, they mension repeatedly that common people can see NOTHING.
For Dramatic events they just stand there. Nothing hard about that!

Re: Affects on surroundings
The energy is contained in a small area. Before you say that it's bullshit, what are Lightsabers again?