Original Clone Wars Idea in ANH

Battlehymn Republic · Post by **Battlehymn Republic** » 2005-07-06 03:34pm

Someone once disparagingly made a comment about how George Lucas had to make a whole movie about the Clone Wars, just because Obi-Wan hinted to it way back in 1977.

I was wondering- is that true? Did Lucas just think of a cool name, instead of having some sort of idea of history dealing with clones in a war? Makes me wonder if he had said something totally retarded (“Satellite Wars” or “Rocket War”) or bizarre (“Lizard Wars) instead.

The funny thing is that I didn’t even hear the reference the first two times I saw ANH.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2005-07-06 04:05pm

Well if you put two and two together.. he told us the "prequels" would be about Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi when they were young and the Jedi were in their prime.

"You fought in the Clone Wars?"
"Yes! I was once a Jedi Knight the same as your father."

And all that stuff about how Anakin was such an awesome pilot and cunning warrior, etc. "General Kenobi, years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars" etc.

So naturally people assumed that if there was a war going on that both of them fought in, then that would naturally be the setting for any prequel movie, unless they were some tiny event, but they talk about it as if it were big (like people talking about World War II).

Battlehymn Republic · Post by **Battlehymn Republic** » 2005-07-06 04:18pm

Yeah, but did Lucas have the idea about Clones in the first place? Or did he just think it was a cool name, and snuck it in about as an obscure reference, and when it was time to make the prequels, he had no choice but to write about clones?

Again, it makes me wonder what would have happened if he had said something totally retarded (“Satellite Wars” or “Rocket War”) or bizarre (“Lizard Wars) instead.

Manus Celer Dei · Post by **Manus Celer Dei** » 2005-07-06 05:22pm

Remember that thing that Obi-Wan was riding on Utapau?

There's your Lizard War

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-07-06 05:32pm

Battlehymn Republic wrote:Yeah, but did Lucas have the idea about Clones in the first place? Or did he just think it was a cool name, and snuck it in about as an obscure reference, and when it was time to make the prequels, he had no choice but to write about clones?

Again, it makes me wonder what would have happened if he had said something totally retarded (“Satellite Wars” or “Rocket War”) or bizarre (“Lizard Wars) instead.

Originally, Cloud City was to be populated by clone fugitives from the Clone Wars, so it wasn't completely random, just an idea that got pushed back a few decades.

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2005-07-06 07:37pm

Battlehymn Republic wrote:Yeah, but did Lucas have the idea about Clones in the first place? Or did he just think it was a cool name, and snuck it in about as an obscure reference, and when it was time to make the prequels, he had no choice but to write about clones?

If you remember the Star War Novel Prologue, that answers a lot of questions. It mentions a lot of aspects that were in the Prequels w/o deviation.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2005-07-07 03:34pm

Two things that were in ANH:
1) Legions of helmeted, faceless, loyal Stormtroopers, devoid of personality and unswervingly loyal to the government.
2) A mention of the Clone Wars.

So was it just a stroke of luck that these two went together so well, when the PT was made later?

Aquatain · Post by **Aquatain** » 2005-07-07 04:19pm

Legions of helmeted, faceless, loyal Stormtroopers, devoid of personality and unswervingly loyal to the government.

Hell these guys first appeared in THX-1138.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2005-07-07 05:00pm

You do realize that that's beside the point, yes?

Battlehymn Republic · Post by **Battlehymn Republic** » 2005-07-07 05:56pm

I think they were meant to represent souless automata, not clones.

But I've been reading some stuff on starwarz.com/starkiller- I guess Lucas did think of clones.

Though I still wonder what if he had Kenobi say something stupid like "Rocket War" or "Satellite Wars."

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2005-07-07 07:09pm

Oh, Satellite Wars wouldn't be all that bad.
In fact, we could have the same prequels, except that the Confederation of Independent Systems would call itself The Confederation of Independent Satellite Systems.
Or, you know, not. Nvm.

I'm not sure if Mr. Lucas meant to tie the "clone" in "Clone Wars" with Stormies from the start, but in the end it all comes together very nicely. I'd actually come to love the (somewhat logistically impractical) idea of all stormies being clones, until recently Lucas went back and said they weren't.

I know the expense and effort behind cloning the entire Stormtrooper corp (rather than conscripting) would be insane, but I just find an evil Imperial clone army cool. Also, dramatically, it makes the potency of the scene where Obi-Wan first lays his eyes on rows of troopers queueing up to get their helmets so stronger: we're seeing Stormtroopers for the first (movie-chronologically) time.

Aquatain · Post by **Aquatain** » 2005-07-07 07:40pm

You do realize that that's beside the point, yes?

Very much so..yes.

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2005-07-09 02:08am

The biggest problem with the Clone War(s) in the Prequels is that the clones turned out to be on the winning side, and usually in sci-fi the names of wars include the name of the enemy. The Droid Wars or Droid-Clone Wars would be a more accurate name, and tie into the bartender at the Cantina refusing to serve "their kind".

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2005-07-09 02:39am

The solution to the Clone Wars comment is an ugly kludge. It would have made more sense, at the very least, to have the clones used by the bad guys. Separatist War or Civil War or First Civil War makes far more sense as a name for a war in which a group called the Separatists started a civil war. Maybe if Lucas had had the pre-ANH storyline better fleshed out in 1977, he would have used a name like that; I don't blame him for not knowing 25 years ahead of time what he wanted to do with Obi Wan and Vader's backstory, just the solution he eventually chose.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2005-07-09 03:46am

Eframepilot wrote:The biggest problem with the Clone War(s) in the Prequels is that the clones turned out to be on the winning side, and usually in sci-fi the names of wars include the name of the enemy. The Droid Wars or Droid-Clone Wars would be a more accurate name, and tie into the bartender at the Cantina refusing to serve "their kind".

Ok this calls to mind a pet peeve/nitpick I have that I never had on my first viewing of Episode II because I never really thought about it.

The thing that makes it silly is how Yoda announces at the end of AOTC "Begun the Clone War has."

Sounds cool at first, but then...

You KNOW that was thrown in to appease fanboys and announce to everyone that (dun, dun, dun) YES THIS IS THE "CLONE WARS" THAT OBI-WAN MENTIONED AND YOU'VE BEEN WAITING 20 ODD YEARS TO SEE HAPPEN" (of course you really only see portions of one battle, and the rest are in the games, novels and cartoons, but at least it had a slam bang finish in the next movie!).

Why is Yoda calling this "the Clone War"? That'd be like the US President saying (upon attacking the Vietcong for the first time with US troops) "The US Marine war has begun!"

It makes no sense, except as a "clue" to anyone who didn't "get it yet" in the audience. Arggh

It takes me out of the movie now everytime I hear it. I would have expected Yoda to say something like "begun this all out war has" (as in, "oh no! a big civil war is going to cause a lot of death and destruction for sure"). In context he's telling Obi-Wan not to celebrate because this battle has set off a civil war that is sure to cause a lot of havoc.

Yes, it would make more sense to call it "the Civil War" or "the Great War for Unification" or "the war with the Seperatists" (they'd probably call it their war of Independance), or yes, even the "Droid War" (though that would probably confuse fans into thinking it was started by droids, not that the seperatists overwhelmingly use droids as troops). Heck, if you want to use "clone" in the title, why not call it the "Clone and Droid war" or something? Answer: because Lucas locked us into that title with ANH. And despite how in real life wars often get named AFTER they are over and the outcome known to historians, and they even have different names based on what side you were on (or rather the side's descendants). Anyway...

Now is Yoda seeing the Future? The Jedi keep claiming the future is "clouded" by the Dark Side, etc. Does Yoda really forsee the events of ROTS at that moment? Doubtful or he'd include a "oh #@$# guys, these Clones are going to kick our asses! We must act quickly to prevent this!"

Instead, just that goofy advertisment sounding line.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2005-07-09 06:05am

Kurgan wrote:*snip*

Whoa.
Take a chill pill, my fretful friend.

Kurgan wrote:It makes no sense, except as a "clue" to anyone who didn't "get it yet" in the audience. Arggh

Must you "do" the "bunny" "ears" so we "catch" your "drift"?

I suppose now that you mention it, Lucas probably never did tie Stormtroopers and "the Clone Wars" together in '77. Yoda's line is a pretty bad way to tie together two things that.. don't tie so well. Mr. Lucas probably never really even expected to make a second movie (or a third, or three prequels). It was juat an ambigous quote in what may have been a one-off movie that may have ended up disappearing into obscurity.

I'm just glad that's not how it turned out.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2005-07-09 06:41am

I can think of some ideas for Rocket Wars or Satellite Wars or even Lizard Wars.

Rocket Wars...lets asuming space travel isnt as old as we thought. Maybe it was a war fought as the first humans were leaving Earth to colonize space, and the story could explain where Earth went and what happened to scatter humanity to the solar winds.

Satellite Wars...a civil war on Curuscant with renegade launched nuke-armed sattelites as the main weapon. Kind of like, that old game remember, Missile Command. One side launchinga ttacks, the other sending up nuke-tipped missiles to counter, back and forth till the planet was ravaged and had to be rebuilt as a city.

Lizard Wars...ok so they get invaded by extra-galactic reptilian conquerers and the galaxy was united in a war against the 'Lizards' for the survival of civilization. In teh wake the Republic is smashed and teh Empire rises to power.

Shit i can even do Clone Wars...a cabal of insane scientists build an army of billions of cloned super-soldiers and unleash them on the galaxy bent on conquest. So the galactic powers unite to fight against the seemingly endless Clone armies.

You'd be surprised how easy it is to write a plot when you have a good title, i'm serious.

Kenoshi · Post by **Kenoshi** » 2005-07-09 07:55am

Lizard Wars sounds cool...the thought of armies of blaster-toting lizard men tearing stuff up has a certain appeal to it.

As far as futuristic sounding wars go, I've always been fond of "Robot Holocaust".

I think that the whole Clone Wars reference in Episode IV was thrown in there because it sounded futuristic and cool (kind of like using Parsecs as a measure of time). It's practical execution in the prequels was pretty good but could have been pulled off better. I'd have liked to see clones used on both sides of the conflict, as 18-Till-I-Die suggested, but the premise behind it being that the Old Republic looked at war in general with such distaste that they prefered to use clones (provided by exclusive facilities owned by the Republic) to do the fighting for them, and somehow the separatists got a whole bunch of clones of their own by some mysterious means and so there would be much clone-on-clone fighting, only to have both sides eventually turn on the Jedi when the time was right.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2005-07-09 08:10am

You'd be surprised how easy it is to write a plot when you have a good title, i'm serious.

Yes, but as we can clearly see in such circumstances the secret of writing a good plot remains elusive.

Ravengrim · Post by **Ravengrim** » 2005-07-10 12:44pm

I dont think that it really matters. Is theer an unwritten law that says an author MUST have an entire storyline already written and make sure that it has perfect continuity? Its HIS story, fer crissakes. Do you read books and say 'Thats not how its supposed to go!'? Its up the the author to make the story up. Hell, even Tolkien changed a lot of details to make the overall story fit to what he wanted it to be. Lucas is the storyteller, we are the observers. If you dont like it, go make up a better one.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2005-07-10 02:41pm

Ravengrim wrote:Lucas is the storyteller, we are the observers.

That's true.

Ravengrim wrote:If you dont like it, go make up a better one.

Fortunately for me, I personally like it.. very much.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2005-07-10 06:47pm

Well let's not forget that, prior to the Clone Wars, the Republic basically had no standing army at all. So the fact that the Separatist movement prompted a military build-up in a society which had been peaceful and free (however corrupt) was probably a huge deal. An even bigger deal was that clones were fighting this war.

EDIT: And consider this. If the United States military suddenly started a branch consisting entirely of cloned soldiers and then invaded a country, would calling the ensuing war the "Clone War" be totally out of the cards in a history textbook? I don't think so.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2005-07-10 07:54pm

Also, talk fucked up ways in does Yoda...

Battlehymn Republic · Post by **Battlehymn Republic** » 2005-07-10 11:15pm

Again, my original question was whether Lucas really thought of clones, or he just made up a cool name. I now see that it was the first.

Other ideas names for wars he could have thought of had he not really considered a backstory:

Laser Wars
Starship Wars
Force War
Droid War (other half of the clone war)
Guild War!
Hyperspace War

and so on.

Junghalli · Post by **Junghalli** » 2005-07-11 01:22am

Sattelite War: the war was fought in a system which had three habitable worlds, all of them sattelites of a single gas giant.

Lizard War: the Republic vs. a reptiloid species.

Starship War: so named it saw huge numbers of habitable worlds reduced to slag by orbiting starships, causing death on a scale never seen in the galaxy before.

Force War: a war between the Jedi and the Sith.

Droid War: a military supercomputer rebels, seizes control of half the starfleet, and tries to exterminate humanity, a la Skynet.

Guild War: touched off by provocative shananegans by the banking guild.

Hyperspace War: already been done, the Great Hyperspace War was the Republic vs. the old Sith Empire IIRC.

Laser War: ended when the winning side built a giant laser capable of frying a whole planet and used it to burn the looser's homeworld.

Rocket War: named for the massive casualties caused by bombarding planets with bomb-tipped rockets.