What if Padme had survived child birth?

Pint0 Xtreme · Post by **Pint0 Xtreme** » 2005-07-08 03:26pm

How different would the universe be? There would be some major conflicts there. Darth Vader still cared and loved her as evidenced when he asked whether she was safe. However, their political ideologies would clash and Padme would definitely be sympathetic to the future Rebellion. Also, how would Palpatine react? Concerning his apprentice, her survival would be a serious liability.

DrkHelmet · Post by **DrkHelmet** » 2005-07-08 03:30pm

If I were Palpatine, I would kill her behind Vader's back so that I could perpetuate the lie. I have just tricked the chosen one into serving me, and I wouldn't risk that success for some chick with a kid on another planet.

Crossroads Inc. · Post by **Crossroads Inc.** » 2005-07-08 03:33pm

DrkHelmet wrote:If I were Palpatine, I would kill her behind Vader's back so that I could perpetuate the lie. I have just tricked the chosen one into serving me, and I wouldn't risk that success for some chick with a kid on another planet.

Yes but Palpatine never knew of the kids, so if Padme survived, I doubt he'd know where she was.

DrkHelmet · Post by **DrkHelmet** » 2005-07-08 03:36pm

Crossroads Inc. wrote:
DrkHelmet wrote:If I were Palpatine, I would kill her behind Vader's back so that I could perpetuate the lie. I have just tricked the chosen one into serving me, and I wouldn't risk that success for some chick with a kid on another planet.
Yes but Palpatine never knew of the kids, so if Padme survived, I doubt he'd know where she was.

Then chances are, Vader wouldn't either. The point of it is that Vader should never find her alive.

Crossroads Inc. · Post by **Crossroads Inc.** » 2005-07-08 03:45pm

Good Point. Basically Shes screwed. If she lives she can't go back to Anakin, he's 'Dead'. She can't show herself, Palpatine would kill her. about all she could do is hide out on Alderran, untill it gets nuked one day.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-07-08 03:50pm

Crossroads Inc. wrote:Good Point. Basically Shes screwed. If she lives she can't go back to Anakin, he's 'Dead'. She can't show herself, Palpatine would kill her. about all she could do is hide out on Alderran, untill it gets nuked one day.

If your right (seems reasonable) then the Empire might actually benifit from her survival. Since she would want to keep her children with her, its entirely possible that Luke might be on Alderaan when it got "nuked." Then the rebellion is quite simply screwed.

Pint0 Xtreme · Post by **Pint0 Xtreme** » 2005-07-08 04:03pm

How hard would it be to conceal the truth that she survived? If Padme wanted to let Darth Vader know that she was still alive, would the Empire be powerful enough to stop her from getting the message out?

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2005-07-08 04:36pm

Pint0 Xtreme wrote:How hard would it be to conceal the truth that she survived? If Padme wanted to let Darth Vader know that she was still alive, would the Empire be powerful enough to stop her from getting the message out?

I rather thought the point was, what with him becoming Darth Vader and all, she wouldn't want him to know she's alive in the first place.

Pint0 Xtreme · Post by **Pint0 Xtreme** » 2005-07-08 04:40pm

Batman wrote:
Pint0 Xtreme wrote:How hard would it be to conceal the truth that she survived? If Padme wanted to let Darth Vader know that she was still alive, would the Empire be powerful enough to stop her from getting the message out?
I rather thought the point was, what with him becoming Darth Vader and all, she wouldn't want him to know she's alive in the first place.

Why wouldn't she? Apparently his transformation into a Sith Lord has not destroyed his capacity for love. Even Padme concluded what her son came to suspect; Darth Vader still had good in him. And it would be silly to think that after their marriage, she would simply cast him out of her life, giving no effort whatsoever to bring him back.

DrkHelmet · Post by **DrkHelmet** » 2005-07-08 04:40pm

Batman wrote: I rather thought the point was, what with him becoming Darth Vader and all, she wouldn't want him to know she's alive in the first place.

I agree. Even if she was alive, she would be entirely too scared of Vader to even attempt to contact him.

Xenophobe3691 · Post by **Xenophobe3691** » 2005-07-08 04:42pm

Pint0 Xtreme wrote: Why wouldn't she? Apparently his transformation into a Sith Lord has not destroyed his capacity for love. Even Padme concluded what her son came to suspect; Darth Vader still had good in him. And it would be silly to think that after their marriage, she would simply cast him out of her life, giving no effort whatsoever to bring him back.

The only reason Darth Vader still had good in him was because he fell to save someone else. His primary emotion behind his motive might have been greed, but he still turned to save someone he loved.

You don't do that if you're as evil as, say, Maul or Palpatine.

Pint0 Xtreme · Post by **Pint0 Xtreme** » 2005-07-08 04:50pm

Xenophobe3691 wrote:The only reason Darth Vader still had good in him was because he fell to save someone else. His primary emotion behind his motive might have been greed, but he still turned to save someone he loved.

You don't do that if you're as evil as, say, Maul or Palpatine.

How does that change the fact that he had good in him, which would be an acceptable reason for Padme to reach out to him assuming she survived?

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2005-07-08 05:53pm

I think Padme would have contacted him in order to try to convince him to turn away from evil, and considering the fact that she is at the core of the reason for his fall in the first place, he damn well might have turned back. It's downright obvious from her dying words that she had not given up on him.

Recall that the main reasons for Anakin's fall, as seen by himself, are:
1) His fear that Padme might die.
2) His anguish when she did die... by his hand.

If she lived.. well then.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2005-07-08 06:21pm

Cykeisme wrote:I think Padme would have contacted him in order to try to convince him to turn away from evil,

After he damn near killed her. Yeah right.

and considering the fact that she is at the core of the reason for his fall in the first place, he damn well might have turned back. It's downright obvious from her dying words that she had not given up on him.

Not giving up on somebody and and blithely inviting you and your kids being killed or worse is not exactly the same thing. Which informing Vader (and, by extension, Palpatine) would amount to.

Recall that the main reasons for Anakin's fall, as seen by himself, are:
1) His fear that Padme might die.
2) His anguish when she did die... by his hand.

Dude, by the time she died (or so he thought) he had already fallen. That's why he tried to kill her in the first place. As far as I'm concerned, the point where Anakin finally falls to the Dark Side is the duel between Palpatine and Windu.

Wing Commander MAD · Post by **Wing Commander MAD** » 2005-07-08 06:22pm

So the force choking her does nothing.

Come on, not even she can be that stupid. Besides I am sure Yoda or Kenobi would have convinced her not to.

DrkHelmet · Post by **DrkHelmet** » 2005-07-08 06:23pm

Wing Commander MAD wrote:So the force choking her does nothing. Come on, not even she can be that stupid. Besides I am sure Yoda or Kenobi would have convinced her not to.

Of course she wouldn't. Kenobi would have told her that he was dead, from a certain point of view. However, even if she thought of contacting him, she wouldn't for fear of Vader & Palpatine getting her children.

Pint0 Xtreme · Post by **Pint0 Xtreme** » 2005-07-08 06:37pm

Batman wrote:After he damn near killed her. Yeah right.

Yeah, in a fit of rage. A lot of people do unreasonable things when they feel their loved ones betrayed them. You cannot convince me that he would hunt and kill her after asking Palpatine whether she was safe at the end of the movie.

Not giving up on somebody and and blithely inviting you and your kids being killed or worse is not exactly the same thing. Which informing Vader (and, by extension, Palpatine) would amount to.

If informing Vader also ended up informing Palpatine of Padme's survival, it would be foolish for Palpatine to kill her. You don't mess with family. We all know what Darth Vader did when Palpatine tried to kill his son.

Dude, by the time she died (or so he thought) he had already fallen. That's why he tried to kill her in the first place. As far as I'm concerned, the point where Anakin finally falls to the Dark Side is the duel between Palpatine and Windu.

You're trying to argue that Darth Vader had no capacity for compassion or love whatsoever for his family? I'm sorry but that's just way out there. You're going to have to twist and spin a lot of the movie to convince me otherwise given the fact that Darth Vader was concerned about Padme's health after donning the mask. If anything, that was the "good" that Padme and Luke realized in him.

Vyraeth · Post by **Vyraeth** » 2005-07-08 06:46pm

If informing Vader also ended up informing Palpatine of Padme's survival, it would be foolish for Palpatine to kill her. You don't mess with family. We all know what Darth Vader did when Palpatine tried to kill his son.

The only problem with this is that you assume that by having her killed, Vader would automatically blame Palpatine. Vader, at this point of his life is quite suspcetible to Palpatine's influences.

If Palpatine did have her killed, he wouldn't be stupid enough to make it look like he obviously did it, he would most likely employ an assassin of some sort to make it look like he didn't do it.

And then after that, he would most likely console Vader, or have the assassin publically executed, in essence, he'd do anything he could to convince Vader that it wasn't him.

And given that Vader fell relatively easy and it took his son to bring him back from the Dark Side, isn't it reasonable to believe that he would listen to Palpatine?

-- Vyraeth

Crom · Post by **Crom** » 2005-07-08 06:49pm

Pint0 Xtreme wrote:If informing Vader also ended up informing Palpatine of Padme's survival, it would be foolish for Palpatine to kill her. You don't mess with family. We all know what Darth Vader did when Palpatine tried to kill his son.

For Sidious to move openly against Padme would be foolish, thankfully that has never really been his style. If Padme were alive he would probably just have her assassinated and pass the blame onto some convenient disgruntled faction, and if that assassination fails he could have her moved someplace for her own safety and deal with her there.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2005-07-08 06:51pm

Pint0 Xtreme wrote:
Batman wrote:After he damn near killed her. Yeah right.
Yeah, in a fit of rage. A lot of people do unreasonable things when they feel their loved ones betrayed them. You cannot convince me that he would hunt and kill her after asking Palpatine whether she was safe at the end of the movie.

And of course she will completely trust him. Sure, he tried to kill her, but hey-it was in a fit of rage! No hard feelings!

Not giving up on somebody and and blithely inviting you and your kids being killed or worse is not exactly the same thing. Which informing Vader (and, by extension, Palpatine) would amount to.
If informing Vader also ended up informing Palpatine of Padme's survival, it would be foolish for Palpatine to kill her.

Because Palpatine is a bumbling idiot and couldn't possibly arrange for the blame to fall on someone else.

You don't mess with family. We all know what Darth Vader did when Palpatine tried to kill his son.

I do. Right after he did his level best to kill Luke himself. You were saying?

Dude, by the time she died (or so he thought) he had already fallen. That's why he tried to kill her in the first place. As far as I'm concerned, the point where Anakin finally falls to the Dark Side is the duel between Palpatine and Windu.
You're trying to argue that Darth Vader had no capacity for compassion or love whatsoever for his family? I'm sorry but that's just way out there.

No. I'm saying that Padme would be abysmally stupid to trust him after what he did to her, that informing Anakin equals informing Palpatine who has innumerable ways of doing her and the kids in without Anakin ever finding out it was him, and that betting on the compassion for his family in a man that did his level best to kill his own son isn't exactly a smart proposition.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2005-07-08 07:13pm

By that logic, beaten wives don't go back to their fucked up, abusive husbands because it'll be stupid. It just wouldn't be logical, would it?

Anyway, try for a moment to not look at Vader's current mood "color" as either black or white.
Forget the Dark Side/Light Side stuff, forget about the Force, forget that the fate of a galaxy of gazillions hangs in the balance. For a moment, just look at the motivations behind each of Anakin and Padme's actions, as human beings.

I think she would have wanted to speak to him again.
However, Wing Commander MAD has a point.. Obi-Wan and Yoda would try to persuade her not to, and if she insisted, they would stop her. They don't believe there's any good left in him, so for the sake of the future of the galaxy, they can't risk their (two) New Hope(s) by letting Sidious know that they're alive.

Mr. T · Post by **Mr. T** » 2005-07-08 07:20pm

I'd imagine she'd go in to hiding. Maybe Yoda would send her to Degobah with him to provide him with some "companionship" on those lonely nights

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2005-07-08 07:31pm

Cykeisme wrote:By that logic, beaten wives don't go back to their fucked up, abusive husbands because it'll be stupid. It just wouldn't be logical, would it?

Why don't you fill me in on how Padme falls into the same psychological niche as those do.

Anyway, try for a moment to not look at Vader's current mood "color" as either black or white.
Forget the Dark Side/Light Side stuff, forget about the Force, forget that the fate of a galaxy of gazillions hangs in the balance. For a moment, just look at the motivations behind each of Anakin and Padme's actions, as human beings.

Why should I? Padme is aware of that.

I think she would have wanted to speak to him again.

I agree. I also think she wouldn't want it badly enough to put herself and her kids in mortal peril.

Mr. T · Post by **Mr. T** » 2005-07-08 07:43pm

Batman wrote:
Cykeisme wrote:By that logic, beaten wives don't go back to their fucked up, abusive husbands because it'll be stupid. It just wouldn't be logical, would it?
Why don't you fill me in on how Padme falls into the same psychological niche as those do.

Hmm lets see, she did overlook Anakin slaughtering an entire village of men, women and children for him. I'd say that's a pretty good example of her fucked up attachment to Anakin.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2005-07-08 07:49pm

Mr. T wrote: Hmm lets see, she did overlook Anakin slaughtering an entire village of men, women and children for him. I'd say that's a pretty good example of her fucked up attachment to Anakin.

He did so in revenge for them torturing and killing his mother, and was torn apart by the fact that he did so afterwards. Yes, that's clearly the same thing as him nearly killing her.