Vat grown meat becoming a reality

[General Zod]

Well someone will have the grow the food used to grow the meat still. How else do you get the food for the meat to feed on?
_________________

True. I should have added another concern, but I didn't think about it. The article mentions that the current methods of producing food require considerable foodstuffs, water, and other chemicals. Now that they would grow it in vats, would the economic activity decrease since it would not be needed?

Only if the methods involved let them produce sufficient quantities to become a serious competitor with the regular beef industry, afaik.

[darthdavid]

I think I speak for Texas, Montana, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Argentina, and a host of others when I say:

And I think I speak for the rest of the world when I say that Texas, Montana, Large Portions of the Australian Outback, Large Portions of New Zealand, The Central/Central Western Canadian Proviences, Argentina and any place else like them are rural shitholes filled with redneck idiots and there for they can blow me. Seriously they just switch to dairy farming or soybeans or whatever shit this vat meat needs to grow with if they're that desperate to be a farmer.

[Chmee]

And I think I speak for the rest of the world when I say that Texas, Montana, Large Portions of the Australian Outback, Large Portions of New Zealand, The Central/Central Western Canadian Proviences, Argentina and any place else like them are rural shitholes filled with redneck idiots and there for they can blow me. Seriously they just switch to dairy farming or soybeans or whatever shit this vat meat needs to grow with if they're that desperate to be a farmer.

Hm ... from that list, I've only known cattle/sheep ranchers from Australia ... but they lived in a very nice place that most of the world wouldn't begin to describe as a 'shithole,' and they were articulate, generous people that nobody would describe as 'redneck idiots'. Destroying their way of life in favor of factory-growing Soylent Brown doesn't seem to have much up-side to me.

[Chardok]

Destroying their way of life in favor of factory-growing Soylent Brown doesn't seem to have much up-side to me.

I'm sure people have been saying things like that since the industrial revolution.

OMFG!!11oneone electric lights?! What will the people who light the lamps do for a livingzorz?!

OMFG!!!oneone Cars?! What about people who raise horses?!1?!

OMFG!!!oneone1 AUTOMATION?!? What about the people who work the assembly lines?!!!?1oneone

Yet somehow...someway....we make it through.

Also, allow the chardok to make a list of benefits of Vat-grown meat.

1. much less cowshit. The stuff's nasty, anyway, takes up alot of room. stinks for miles.

2. Less cow farts. Methane is bad, mmmkay? It's all, like, a greenhouse gas.

3. less land wasted for grazing. Yeah, I said it. Cows take up a lot of goddamned space. space which could be put to better use.

4. Cleaner. Ever seen one of them PETA vids? Where the cows are put into a machine that turns em upside down, forcing their necks taut, then some dude rakes a machete across their neck and then the machine turns the cow loose to stumble around stupidly until it finally goes unconcious from blood loss? I'm not an animal rights activist by any stretch, but, you have to admit, that's a damn shitty way to go. Slaughterhouses are nasty, dirty, ugly places. Anything we can do to cut down on the number of them is okay in my book. Ugh...ignorance, in this case, is definately bliss. (Yeah, I know about bolt guns and shit, too.)

5. Nicer for cows. Yeah, I know, here I go again, animal rights and shit. But not....really..... because: we'll still raise cows for things like leather, and it isn't as if the meat industry will simply go away. There'll still be people out there who prefer the "Real thing", but, there will be less cows simply raised for the express purpose of making meat. (Hormone injections and the like)

Shit...time to log back in at work. Back later...

[Ace Pace]

Well where are you hearing it, as my info comes from having grown up in a place with about 40% jewish population and talking to jews about it, I might be wrong mind you, but I dont see why you find it all that odd for there to be "quality control inspector" rabbis as well as preacher rabbis.

He's from Israel.

Anyhow, even during the slaughter a special butcher has to be brought in to make sure everything's safe, he's called a shohet.

As he said.
Xeno, I think you might be confused with wordings, a Shohet is butcher in hebrew.

Okey, right now its Shabbat so I can't exactly ring up some fundies to ask, I'll try to remember tommarow evening, they should have the answers.
And yes, the no milk thing.. Its not technicly in a seperate fridge, you can do same fridge but differant container, but they must not touch.
All the no milk and meet interwining BS is from a single line saying not to eat a lamb with its mothers milk.

And most orthodox Jews have 2 sets of everything eating related, one milk one meat.

[AMX]

First result from Google:
http://www.jewfaq.org/kashrut.htm

[Enforcer Talen]

Hamburgers grown in labs?

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N06702090.htm

snippage.

w00t. soon Ill be able to eat meat again without worrying its escaped sinclair's the jungle.

[Xenophobe3691]

As he said.
Xeno, I think you might be confused with wordings, a Shohet is butcher in hebrew.

Okey, right now its Shabbat so I can't exactly ring up some fundies to ask, I'll try to remember tommarow evening, they should have the answers.
And yes, the no milk thing.. Its not technicly in a seperate fridge, you can do same fridge but differant container, but they must not touch.
All the no milk and meet interwining BS is from a single line saying not to eat a lamb with its mothers milk.

And most orthodox Jews have 2 sets of everything eating related, one milk one meat.

I know, it's just that here in the US, you have butchers, and then you have the special guys who kill the animal. The latter was who I was referring to.

And yes, my family does have special dishes, silverware, cabinets, and refrigerators for milk and meat.

[CaptainChewbacca]

As far as I can tell, vat-grown meat would be automatically kosher as long as no components came from non-kosher animals. The meat has never been "alive" and never had blood in it, so the butchery is a non-issue. Depending on how you derive the "flavor" would settle the rest of it.

[Gil Hamilton]

As far as I can tell, vat-grown meat would be automatically kosher as long as no components came from non-kosher animals. The meat has never been "alive" and never had blood in it, so the butchery is a non-issue. Depending on how you derive the "flavor" would settle the rest of it.

On the other hand, it could be automatically non-kosher because it's still meat that didn't go through the process of becoming kosher or come from any animal on the list. After all, as far as I can tell, meat growing vats don't tend to have cloven hooves and chew their own cud. I'd think they'd err on the side of being conservative when if it comes down to it, for the same reason that electricity counts as "fire" during the sabbath (mentioned below), even though electicity isn't very much like fire at all.

[Ace Pace]

Actully, its a myth that the no electricity thing is because of fire. Rather its because "You shall not close a circle" basicly saying you cannot finsh or start new things on Shabbat, and an electrical circuit fits the bill, same reason phones are outlawed.

[Broomstick]

Why? Does kosher meat automatically become non-kosher if it's handled by a gentile?

No.

There is no bar to employing gentiles in processing kosher food, although said gentiles must obey Jewish food-handling procedures.

That said, if we're discussing the issue, a quick vocabulary review might help (if I remember this right):

Kosher - ritually "clean" animal products, that is, it comes from a "clean" animal that was been slaughtered and processed in accordance with Jewish food laws.

Parve - ritually clean food that is neither milk nor meat and may be eaten with either.

Trayf - ritually unclean animal products. Some animals are always trayf, but others, such as beef cattle, may be either kosher or trayf depending on how they are handled. Food and beverages that are normally kosher or parve may become trayf if mishandled or contaminated. For example, last year in New York the orthodox Jewish community got upset when they found out there were copepods in the city water supply as copepods are trayf (they live in water and have niether fins nor scales) so there was a raging debate as to whether or not the water supply was parve or trayf. (Some argued that the offending copepods, being microscopic, did not count. Others disagreed.)

It should also be noted that the vast majority of Jews are not nearly as anal as Muslims about "unclean" animals. For example, Muslims as a rule do not want anything of pig origin around them at all, but most Jews would have no problem using, say, a boar bristle brush - it's OK as long as they don't try to eat it.

Jews also tend to be pragmatic about survival issues. For example, if a Jew was starving and the only food available was trayf, not only would it be permitted to eat such food in those circumstances, but I've heard it argued that the Jew would be compelled to do so since preserving life takes a higher priority exact adherance to the dietary laws. Likewise, Jews will use medical products of pig origin, whereas Muslims may not.

But do keep in mind that Jews are a diverse population - they range from bizarro fundamentalists to folks who are culturally Jewish but atheist in religious beliefs.

[Broomstick]

3. less land wasted for grazing. Yeah, I said it. Cows take up a lot of goddamned space. space which could be put to better use.

Maybe, maybe not - at least in the US, a lot of the land used for cattle ranching is not suitable to most crops, usually due to low water availability. If you remove the cattle that doesn't automatically mean you'll get vegetable gardens popping up.

That said - letting the land revert to wild/natural could be argued as a valid "use".

4. Cleaner. Ever seen one of them PETA vids? Where the cows are put into a machine that turns em upside down, forcing their necks taut, then some dude rakes a machete across their neck and then the machine turns the cow loose to stumble around stupidly until it finally goes unconcious from blood loss? I'm not an animal rights activist by any stretch, but, you have to admit, that's a damn shitty way to go. Slaughterhouses are nasty, dirty, ugly places. Anything we can do to cut down on the number of them is okay in my book. Ugh...ignorance, in this case, is definately bliss. (Yeah, I know about bolt guns and shit, too.)

I feel a need to point out that PeTA is a highly biased source for information on the animal slaughter business.

The string-em-up-by-ankles-and-slit-their-throats method of slaughter is rare in the US today. The bolt guns - which I do think are a more certain and humane method of killing large food animals - are the standard.

Temple Grandin has written some interesting things on the animal slaughter business. At this point, I think over half the major animal handling/slaughter facilities in this country have been designed by her. Her designs take advantage of the animals nautral instincts to keep them moving calmly and under their own motive power until the moment of death. Cattle are big, dangerous animals - Grandin's facilities allow fewer people to handle more animals with significantly fewer injuries to either human or cattle. It's about as humane as slaughter is ever going to get.

Grandin has also worked with kosher butchers to make their techniques more humane while still complying with religious dictates.

[Broomstick]

As far as I can tell, vat-grown meat would be automatically kosher as long as no components came from non-kosher animals. The meat has never been "alive" and never had blood in it, so the butchery is a non-issue. Depending on how you derive the "flavor" would settle the rest of it.

I think you undersestimate the Jewish tendency towards debate.

I can't, off-hand, disagree with that broad statement. I think there are issues about, say, porcine-origin vat-grown meat, but it wouldn't surprise me if some of the more liberal Jews might OK it while many others don't. The fish-origin might also be a problem - food from the waters must have fins and scales - catfish are trayf, for example, because while they have fins they lack scales. Well, vat-grown fish steaks wouldn't have fins or scales, either, would they? But are they in waters or not?

However, even if the basic stuff we're talking about is kosher, it wouldn't take much contamination to make it all trayf. You have to consider the origin of all the chemicals and stuff that goes into the production process.

[Broomstick]

And finally....

Would this form of meat production truly reduce things like greenhouse emissions overall? In addition to producing the chemicals that nuture the cells involved, which will probably consume some petro-chemicals in the form of fertilizers and pesticides, you have to produce these "membranes" and growth substrates. I'm betting they're some sort of plastic, which means petro-chemicals again. You'll need power to run all this machinery, which, again, means petro-chemicals/coal in most cases. Power doesn't come free. This isn't a free lunch.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Would this form of meat production truly reduce things like greenhouse emissions overall? In addition to producing the chemicals that nuture the cells involved, which will probably consume some petro-chemicals in the form of fertilizers and pesticides, you have to produce these "membranes" and growth substrates. I'm betting they're some sort of plastic, which means petro-chemicals again. You'll need power to run all this machinery, which, again, means petro-chemicals/coal in most cases. Power doesn't come free. This isn't a free lunch.

My guess is, yes it would help pollution and use less energy. Every step in the food chain involves a large amount of waste, which is why you don't see carnivores usually used as meat animals. Going directly from raw resources to meat will cut out a lot of intermediary steps and waste. Remember, maintaining a cattle ranch and feeding all those animals and growing what they eat uses up a lot of resouces.

It's not a free lunch, but it should be a cheaper lunch.

[His Divine Shadow]

Here's an interesting page I read about cattle farming:
http://www.agt.net/public/jross/JustFaqs.htm

[Drooling Iguana]

This might have a lot of uses when we finally get around to colonising other planets. I'd imagine that it would be kinda tough to cart a herd of cattle across space, not to mention setting them up with a grazing area on the destination planet. Something like this could meet the dietary needs of the colonists much more easily.

[Lord of the Abyss]

This might have a lot of uses when we finally get around to colonising other planets. I'd imagine that it would be kinda tough to cart a herd of cattle across space, not to mention setting them up with a grazing area on the destination planet. Something like this could meet the dietary needs of the colonists much more easily.

Not to mention improve quality of life. An endless supply of veggies or ( worse ) military style rations would be plenty unpleasant. I know if I don't get meat every so often I get depressed and grumpy; I'd hate to go without for years or permenantly.

[wilfulton]

Actually, I thought wild game was supposed to be the healthiest meat out there, and we've even less control over their diets than we do of our own livestock.

Of course not everyone can just go grab their trusty .30-06 and go bag a deer for dinner.

[Broomstick]

Wild game can be healthy - it can also carry things like tularemia and that deer wasting disease they have up in Wisconsin which might be related to BSE.

[Ou des]

I wonder if this method could be used for medical purposes, like skin grafts or some such.

Also no blood? That's where the flavor comes from

[Coyote]

Also, technical info on the kosher meat issue--
An animal must have cloven (split) hooves and chew its cud. So horse, bear, rabbit, snake, crocodile, etc, are out.

Seafood: it must have fins and scales. So fish with skin (catfish, eel), are out. As are shellfish, squid/octopus, etc.

Birds: any of the ordinary avians can be eaten. The only avians that are forbidden are the ones no one would eat normally (eagles, vultures, faclons, etc).

Also, when it come to meat and dairy products eaten together, fish is not really considered a "meat" item, it is its own thing, fish. It's parve.

Vat-grown meat will probably come down to the prcoess and the flavoring. Any gelatin-derived flavoring (commonly made from pig collagen) will be forbidden.

[Chmee]

On the whole energy-consumption issue ...

Isn't most Aussie and Canadian beef range-fed, making the primary energy source for them the Sun? Unless the Soylent Brown factories are solar powered, aren't they going to require more power-generation than the current systems?

[Lord of the Abyss]

On the whole energy-consumption issue ...

Isn't most Aussie and Canadian beef range-fed, making the primary energy source for them the Sun? Unless the Soylent Brown factories are solar powered, aren't they going to require more power-generation than the current systems?

What about the equipment used to maintain the ranch ? What about the slaughterhouse ? Those take power, and there are probable other things I haven't thought of.

Besides, arable land is a limited and shrinking resource, and every acre spent feeding a cow is a acre taken out of circulation.