The Creation of the Universe

[Vyraeth]

This is a question, I've and probably about every other person been wondering about, and that is how was the universe created?

I know there is no definitive answer, but I'm curious to see if modern science (or moreso, I suppose, scientists in astrophysics), have any idea how our universe came to be?

Since, I am religious, I believe that God created the universe, and while I have faith, I am also curious about the scientific perspective. Is there one?

If anyone knows of any websites dealing with this, or has any resources, or can offer any answers, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks in advance,
Vyraeth

[Darth Raptor]

The universe has always existed, as I understand it. Why it suddenly expanded like that, I have no idea.

It's only a "beginning" in the sense that time is a property of the universe, so time's beginning coincides with the rapid expansion of space-time (the Big Bang). As for the original stuff involved in the Big Bang, there's no reason to believe it was never actually there. Matter cannot be created.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

*Sniffs the air*

Fee, Fi, Fo, Fum. I smell the blood of a trool.

*Sniffs some more*

Or my nose could be deceiving me.

[Firefox]

To add to what Raptor has said, time came about the same instant as the initial event. As a result, there is no "before" the universe.

Big Bang (or Inflation theory), as far as I understand it, explains what happened immediately after the initial event onward. Nothing has been said about what "started" it.




RAR.

[Vyraeth]

Heh, no, I'm definately not a troll, just genuinely curious, and considering this forum is full of science-minded individuals, I figured it'd be a good place to ask.

Ah, I see, it appears I have to do some reading on the Big Bang theory, my understanding was that it was used to form Earth.

I appreciate the answers so far, does anyone have any resources that I could look at so I can study some more? Books would be awesome. I understand that this sort of subject material is still going around in the scientific world, but it really is fascinating.

Thanks,
Vyraeth

[General Zod]

I appreciate the answers so far, does anyone have any resources that I could look at so I can study some more? Books would be awesome. I understand that this sort of subject material is still going around in the scientific world, but it really is fascinating.

The useful URLs sticky likely has some links that you could use.

[Surlethe]

This is a question, I've and probably about every other person been wondering about, and that is how was the universe created?

I know there is no definitive answer, but I'm curious to see if modern science (or moreso, I suppose, scientists in astrophysics), have any idea how our universe came to be?

Since, I am religious, I believe that God created the universe, and while I have faith, I am also curious about the scientific perspective. Is there one?

If anyone knows of any websites dealing with this, or has any resources, or can offer any answers, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks in advance,
Vyraeth

The accepted description of the beginning of the universe is the Big Bang theory.

This is a short summary by NASA of the theory.

One note: time has been around as long as the universe existed; speaking of "before" the Big Bang is nonsensical because time has only existed since the Big Bang.

[Firefox]

Ah, I see, it appears I have to do some reading on the Big Bang theory, my understanding was that it was used to form Earth.

... What gave you that idea?

[Vyraeth]

A poor grasp of the theory, Firefox. I suppose given my religious roots, and the fact that I don't recall too much discussion of the Big Bang theory occuring in school, would attribute to this. Only recently have I been trying to really utilizie the internet to broaden my intellectual horizons, if you would.

I was limited to thinking that the Big Bang theory happened to draw tons of particles together (like asteroids or whatever), and that somehow compacted all the matter to form Earth, and evolution and what not took place from there. (If that sounds like bullshit, again, I'm not attempting to declare that as truth). I hadn't realized the Big Bang theory also covered how the universe formed.

Thank you for the link, Surlethe, I'll check that out.

Thanks,
Vyraeth

[Wicked Pilot]

If you're truely interested I'd recommend Big Bang: The Origin Of The Universe by Simon Singh. It goes through the history of astronomy from the ancient Greeks to modern cosmotology. It's a really good read and will help you understand what we know, by what process we figured it out, and even the mistakes we made along the way. While this book might not be the next Brief History of Time it does make a good springboard into the wealth of today's astronomical knowledge.

[Firefox]

The Earth's formation was only a side-effect of events that took place following the beginning of the universe's expansion.

I'm still interested in knowing where you got your earlier notions, though at least you seem willing to learn.

One note: time has been around as long as the universe existed; speaking of "before" the Big Bang is nonsensical because time has only existed since the Big Bang.

I already said that.

[Vyraeth]

He found that distant galaxies in every direction are going away from us with speeds proportional to their distance.

I didn't realize that article was quite that short, Surelethe, but I found that line very interesting.

If every galaxy is shooting away from ours, is there any idea what might happen when they run out of room? (I've always assumed space was a huge open space, not to use a pun).

I suppose, space is so huge that the question itself has little significance, but is there any idea if there's even some sort of limit to space itself?

Thanks,
Vyraeth

[Vyraeth]

Sorry, just read the two posts after my own. My notions mainly come from school, I'm not that well read up on science, but after taking Physics this year, I'm finding science fascinating.

Thanks,
Vyraeth

[DrkHelmet]

He found that distant galaxies in every direction are going away from us with speeds proportional to their distance.

I didn't realize that article was quite that short, Surelethe, but I found that line very interesting.

If every galaxy is shooting away from ours, is there any idea what might happen when they run out of room? (I've always assumed space was a huge open space, not to use a pun).

I suppose, space is so huge that the question itself has little significance, but is there any idea if there's even some sort of limit to space itself?

Thanks,
Vyraeth

That's a meaningless question. Space is not "huge." To say "huge" would imply that it has a size limit, which it doesn't. It's like asking what's "outside the universe" or "before the universe." It's a meaningless question. Space is infinite.

[Firefox]

If every galaxy is shooting away from ours, is there any idea what might happen when they run out of room? (I've always assumed space was a huge open space, not to use a pun).

The galaxies are not physically flying away from us, so much as it's a matter of space itself expanding.

And to clarify, some galaxies, in particular those that are within our local group, are not necessarily moving away from us. Andromeda is actually moving towards the Milky Way due to gravity.

[General Zod]

That's a meaningless question. Space is not "huge." To say "huge" would imply that it has a size limit, which it doesn't. It's like asking what's "outside the universe" or "before the universe." It's a meaningless question. Space is infinite.

There doesn't need to be a limit to label something as 'huge'. 14 billion years old and constantly expanding is a good few billion light years across at least. So huge would be a fairly accurate descriptor.

[Vyraeth]

I think I've found a new love, heh. I'll certainly buy that book.

I see, I had considered that space was infinitely expanding, but I also had the idea that space was sort of a static entity.

But given your information, DrkHelmet, I see how my question is meaningless.

Also, Firefox, thank you for your contributions.

I also wasn't aware that the creation of the universe was when time began, for some reason, I'm struggling with that concept. I have to wonder what's before that. I mean, where did the matter come from to form the universe? I just have so many questions with the bits of info I've gotten from this thread.

Well, I suppose there's no more point to this thread, again, as I've reitered many times, I thank all of you for dealing with my lack of knowledge, and I greatly appreciate all of the information.

-- Vyraeth

[18-Till-I-Die]

Yes i too wonder, what caused the matter that made the Big Bang to exist. Of course i beleive one thing, but i realize i cant prove it or state it as absolute truth. I beleive in a higher power (God) too, but like i said i cant and dont try to prove it as i have no evidence.

Thats unimportant though, just my opinion. I mean to say i too have trouble grasping that time existed when teh Big Bang started...but nothing existed before...but the matter...i'm sure i got most of that wrong it's a little complicated to me.

I've tried reading up on the stuff, but a combination of my scientific illiteracy and time constraints makes that difficult.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Yes i too wonder, what caused the matter that made the Big Bang to exist. Of course i beleive one thing, but i realize i cant prove it or state it as absolute truth. I beleive in a higher power (God) too, but like i said i cant and dont try to prove it as i have no evidence.

As I understand inflation theory, the expansion of spacetime qualifies as negative energy, sort of like an explosion losing energy as it expands. The original mass/energy condensed from this energy loss and became matter ( at least some of it, some became energy ) .

As far as time goes, some theories hold that this is one of a series or "family" of universes; each universe "buds" new baby universes, which in turn bud more. If this is true, you can eliminate the origin of time by postulating that it always has been, with no beginning.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Anyone ever heard of a 'steady-state universe'? The universe simply 'is', it didnt start and it cant stop, ever.

I know it's probably be discredited, i kind of heard from some fringe sources.

I however found it interesting so i used it in a story, sort of as a background, to explain an FTL system.

The Family Universe theory sounds like it would make sense. Reminds me of the Marvel universe, how one universe 'blew up' and created ours, and eventually this one will blow up and make the next, etc, etc onto infinity.

[SirNitram]

Here we go. Me trying to explain as it was explained to me.

At some point around ~15 billion years ago(I was taught sixteen, I've seen it less, but it's in that neighbourhood. Not too long ago we refined the age down really low, but I can't recall it now.), time and space started. Now, I know the question on your lips. What was before that? And here's where the brains start to break.

There's no 'before'.

For there to be a 'before', you need time. Time started at the origin point(Calling it the Big Bang is, as I understand it, misleading; the Big Bang is the fact it's still expanding, and we can measure this.). No time? No before.

Why did this happen? We have no clue. We've made some interesting guesses(Ranging from black holes in existing universes making new ones to even more esoteric stuff), but flatly, we have no real answer. We're unlikely to get one for a while, because we have trouble expressnig an enviroment with no time for things to occour in, and no space for anything to exist in.

Anyway, after time and space got started, we get into much better understood territory.

[Surlethe]

One note: time has been around as long as the universe existed; speaking of "before" the Big Bang is nonsensical because time has only existed since the Big Bang.

I already said that.

I know. I started to reply, then got caught up in a webcomic I was reading, so you all got to it before me. Bastards.

I didn't realize that article was quite that short, Surelethe, but I found that line very interesting.

It was the first link up on google, and it seemed to give a pretty good summary. Glad you found it interesting! Do research, and keep an open mind.

[Firefox]

The term "big bang" stuck after Sir Fred Hoyle, a steady-state proponent, referred derisively to the concept of a universe expanding from a single point.

Steady-state still has its proponents, though. I remember a few while I used to peruse the Bad Astronomy BB. They preferred to interpret WMAP and other cosmic background evidence their way, saying it supports SS rather than discredits it.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Anyone ever heard of a 'steady-state universe'? The universe simply 'is', it didnt start and it cant stop, ever.

I know it's probably be discredited, i kind of heard from some fringe sources.

I however found it interesting so i used it in a story, sort of as a background, to explain an FTL system.

The Family Universe theory sounds like it would make sense. Reminds me of the Marvel universe, how one universe 'blew up' and created ours, and eventually this one will blow up and make the next, etc, etc onto infinity.

Yes,the Steady State model was discredited a long time ago, although a few authors like James P. Hogan like to use it in SF. The Marvel Universe is more what's called a "serial universe", one universe born like a Phoenix from the ashes of the older one. The "Family Universes" are more like a spreading bush of universes, not a line.

The "family universe" ( nice name ) theory is often mixed with a form of evolutionary theory. Many physical laws appear to be arbitrary; they could be many values, but aren't . If they were too different, either no life would exist or the universe would have died long ago. The theory assumes that the laws vary at least slightly from "mother" to "baby" universe. So, here's the theory :

Mild version : The longer a universe lasts, the more universes it buds, the more universes with similar laws will exist, and the more universes they will bud. This selects for a long lasting universe; since one likely source of "buds" are black holes, a universe with stars is more likely to reproduce. This produces a universe with a chance of producing life with a little fine tuning, and with enough universes chance will do the tuning.

( Even ) More speculative version : Given time, an intelligent species may invent technology that manipulates spacetime in a fashion that produces baby universes, either on purpose or as a side effect. Given time ( and a tree of universes has unlimited time ) this small increase will act as a selcetion pressure for life bearing universes.

[Lord Zentei]

I posted an article on the Big Bang earlier:

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=70670

It covers several of the common misconceptions about the theory.