Planetary destruction. Deathstar Vs Genesis Torpedo

[Dark]

My question is whitch is more effective and more usful.

Now i know in the ST movies the Genesis project was a failer but for arument sake it dose.

Now i'd say the Deathstar was the more destructive.

But the Genesis torpedo was more usful because once the population is gone you have a new world to colonize.

But i'd love to hear your views.

[Civil War Man]

You have a new world to colonize, but only assuming the Federation made major steps forward in stablizing the planet afterwards because the new world rapidly deteriorates after the torpedo terraforms it (it was only a matter of weeks, IIRC, before the Genesis planet collapsed in STIII).

Plus you need a new Genesis torpedo for each planet you want to destroy. With the Death Star you just need to recharge the gun.

Death Star wins, hands down.

[lPeregrine]

Except in one advantage: size. The Death Star is nice, but it's just a little to big to sneak around with. The genesis torpedo, on the other hand, is a tiny device... so you could probably build it without attracting attention. Or sneak it onto the target in a disguised shuttle so nobody knows you were involved. The Death Star is indimidating, but so is the terror effect of your enemies knowing that every single cargo container on every single freighter arriving at every single world could contain a planet killer.

[Junghalli]

The Genesis torpedo has one major advantage over the DS: it can be loaded into just about any ship. It's fairly small and seems to feed of some sort of self-sustaining technobabble reaction, so you can turn a border cutter into a planet killer if you want. Compared to having to build a moon-sized battlestation to support the superlaser of doom. The big downside is it takes a lot longer for the planet-destroying reaction to wind down.
If I may be allowed to suggest an alternative simply reprogram the Genesis device to skip the complex steps involved in recreating a living planet and just use the reaction to burn the world to cinders. That'll be the practical equivalent of a Death Star, although the planet technically remains and it might run into problems with planetary shields.
Really, the superweapon I'm most partial to is the thalaron gun. It's like a neutron bomb scaled up to a whole planet: kills the population in a very nasty manner but the radiation disperses harmlessly in minutes.

[KhyronTheBackstabber]

[quote="lPeregrine"]Except in one advantage: size. The Death Star is nice, but it's just a little to big to sneak around with.[ /quote]

You know, when you're that big and powerful, sneaking around is a moot point.
Plus, while you may be able to sneak a genesis torpedo into a system, and blow people up before they know what's going on...The Death Star will give you something to think about. And as we all know, the anticipation is a lot worse then the ass whoopin'.

Victory: Death Star.

[Sea Skimmer]

You have a new world to colonize, but only assuming the Federation made major steps forward in stablizing the planet afterwards because the new world rapidly deteriorates after the torpedo terraforms it (it was only a matter of weeks, IIRC, before the Genesis planet collapsed in STIII).

Plus you need a new Genesis torpedo for each planet you want to destroy. With the Death Star you just need to recharge the gun.

Death Star wins, hands down.

The Genesis torpedo however was made by a small remote research facility. The effort that goes into building one Death Star could build millions of factories which could churn out a vast pile of torpedoes. If all you want to do is blow shit up, then the torpedo probuabbly would win.

However, the Death Star is far more flexible. All the torpedo can reliably do is blow up a planet. The Death Star is a massive fortress laden with smallerships and troops, which lets it act with less then total force. It can defeat a fleet and then invade a planet.

[Glimmervoid]

You have a new world to colonize, but only assuming the Federation made major steps forward in stablizing the planet afterwards because the new world rapidly deteriorates after the torpedo terraforms it (it was only a matter of weeks, IIRC, before the Genesis planet collapsed in STIII).

Plus you need a new Genesis torpedo for each planet you want to destroy. With the Death Star you just need to recharge the gun.

Death Star wins, hands down.

The Genesis torpedo however was made by a small remote research facility. The effort that goes into building one Death Star could build millions of factories which could churn out a vast pile of torpedoes. If all you want to do is blow shit up, then the torpedo probuabbly would win.

However, the Death Star is far more flexible. All the torpedo can reliably do is blow up a planet. The Death Star is a massive fortress laden with smallerships and troops, which lets it act with less then total force. It can defeat a fleet and then invade a planet.

Also a starwars planetry sheild could well stop a genesis torpedo but not the deathstar.

[lPeregrine]

Also a starwars planetry sheild could well stop a genesis torpedo but not the deathstar.

Except that a genesis torpedo is small enough for even the smallest ships to carry. Why break the shields when you can just sneak one in on a random transport. Shielded smuggling compartment + genesis torpedo = no more planet. If your enemy wants to inflict a total blockade on himself just to stop the chance of a genesis torpedo sneaking through, that's a pretty good return on your investment.

You know, when you're that big and powerful, sneaking around is a moot point.
Plus, while you may be able to sneak a genesis torpedo into a system, and blow people up before they know what's going on...The Death Star will give you something to think about. And as we all know, the anticipation is a lot worse then the ass whoopin'.

Maybe if you're the Empire, you don't need to sneak around. But it doesn't take much imagination to think of situations where you might like the ability to destroy a planet with nobody tracing it back to you.

And the Death Star is psychological terror, but the genesis torpedo would work just as well for that. It's just a different kind of terror. With the genesis torpedo, you either stop all travel to your planet (which the citizens will love) or you live in constant fear of a genesis torpedo sneaking through your inspections. Either way, countless planets are the victim of that terror, even if you never even try to use the weapon against them.

[Darth Wong]

You're forgetting that a Genesis torpedo takes four minutes to go off and generates distinctive radiation during that time. You can't set one off without giving plenty of prior warning, which should be more than enough to put a shield around it or drag it outside of the planetary shield (or simply blow it up; I wonder why Kirk never even bothered asking David whether that would work).

[KhyronTheBackstabber]

Didn't the Enterprise's sensors detect the Genesis device powering up? I haven't seen TWoK in awhile. That could make it difficult to sneak it under the shield.

[Darth Wong]

Didn't the Enterprise's sensors detect the Genesis device powering up? I haven't seen TWoK in awhile. That could make it difficult to sneak it under the shield.

Yes, without even knowing in advance what to look for.

[Bounty]

You're forgetting that a Genesis torpedo takes four minutes to go off and generates distinctive radiation during that time. You can't set one off without giving plenty of prior warning, which should be more than enough to put a shield around it or drag it outside of the planetary shield (or simply blow it up; I wonder why Kirk never even bothered asking David whether that would work).

Four minutes is an awfully short timeframe to detect the radiation, identify it, locate the device, and contain it.

[Darth Wong]

You're forgetting that a Genesis torpedo takes four minutes to go off and generates distinctive radiation during that time. You can't set one off without giving plenty of prior warning, which should be more than enough to put a shield around it or drag it outside of the planetary shield (or simply blow it up; I wonder why Kirk never even bothered asking David whether that would work).

Four minutes is an awfully short timeframe to detect the radiation, identify it, locate the device, and contain it.

You figure the Empire doesn't understand the concept of triangulation? Do you understand how we figure out today where a radio signal is coming from?

[Darth Wong]

Besides, one other critical advantage of the Death Star is that it is capable of travelling across a galaxy in a matter of hours. The Genesis Torpedo, on the other hand, must be carried by a vessel, from a society which is limited to a technology base that takes decades to cover that same distance. So its striking range is rather pitiful compared to that of a Death Star (not to mention the factor that Sea Skimmer noted: the ability of a Death Star to conquer worlds rather than being limited to all-or-nothing operations).

[Bounty]

You're forgetting that a Genesis torpedo takes four minutes to go off and generates distinctive radiation during that time. You can't set one off without giving plenty of prior warning, which should be more than enough to put a shield around it or drag it outside of the planetary shield (or simply blow it up; I wonder why Kirk never even bothered asking David whether that would work).

Four minutes is an awfully short timeframe to detect the radiation, identify it, locate the device, and contain it.

You figure the Empire doesn't understand the concept of triangulation? Do you understand how we figure out today where a radio signal is coming from?

They will figure out where the radiation is coming from, I don't doubt that. I'm just not entirely convinced that they'll recognise the radiation as coming from a Genesis device, triangulate it's position, find the device, and neutralise/dispose of it in under four minutes.

[Darth Wong]

They will figure out where the radiation is coming from, I don't doubt that. I'm just not entirely convinced that they'll recognise the radiation as coming from a Genesis device, triangulate it's position, find the device, and neutralise/dispose of it in under four minutes.

Triangulation, for all practical purposes, takes no time at all; their sensors would do it automatically. And once you know it's in a particular vessel, you simply blow it up, tractor it out of the atmosphere, or put a shield around it.

Moreover, considering that the operational range of any hostile ST planet is a stone's throw by Imperial standards, there are only a few planets which could possibly be in range, and they would most likely be militarized and kept on alert against terrorist attacks.

[Bounty]

I see - I was assuming the device was already on the planet. Smuggle it in as cargo, hide it in a field/cave somewhere away from Imperial facilities, set a timer to activate it, then get off the planet before the reaction starts.

[Darth Wong]

I see - I was assuming the device was already on the planet. Smuggle it in as cargo, hide it in a field/cave somewhere away from Imperial facilities, set a timer to activate it, then get off the planet before the reaction starts.

Think about the fact that any Imperial-held planets in range of a ST-held world during a war would be somewhat militarized and kept on high alert; do you really think it would be that easy to just smuggle in weapons? And as I said, this is something you can develop countermeasures for. Even if it works once, they'll know what to look for, and all you have to do is triangulate on its emissions and then blow the device up. They could probably hit any site on the planet's surface within 4 minutes as long as there's even a single ship in orbit.

[The Grim Squeaker]

I see - I was assuming the device was already on the planet. Smuggle it in as cargo, hide it in a field/cave somewhere away from Imperial facilities, set a timer to activate it, then get off the planet before the reaction starts.

Think about the fact that any Imperial-held planets in range of a ST-held world during a war would be somewhat militarized and kept on high alert; do you really think it would be that easy to just smuggle in weapons? And as I said, this is something you can develop countermeasures for. Even if it works once, they'll know what to look for, and all you have to do is triangulate on its emissions and then blow the device up. They could probably hit any site on the planet's surface within 4 minutes as long as there's even a single ship in orbit.

But it would work once making it an excellent suicide/surprise weapon especially on somewhere like Coruscant where even Imperial sensors might have difficulty finding it (even if they knew what to look for- that is if it is used their for the first time), especially on the lower levels.
(Smugglers can get into the planet even during the Emperors reign as seen in "Shadows of the empire", all they need to do is hire a half way decent smuggler).

I apologize for the moronic fan wank but someone like Thrawn could use it to excellent use to force an opponent to drop their planetary shield as he forced the republic to maintain the shield with the cloaked bombs.

[Glimmervoid]

I see - I was assuming the device was already on the planet. Smuggle it in as cargo, hide it in a field/cave somewhere away from Imperial facilities, set a timer to activate it, then get off the planet before the reaction starts.

Think about the fact that any Imperial-held planets in range of a ST-held world during a war would be somewhat militarized and kept on high alert; do you really think it would be that easy to just smuggle in weapons? And as I said, this is something you can develop countermeasures for. Even if it works once, they'll know what to look for, and all you have to do is triangulate on its emissions and then blow the device up. They could probably hit any site on the planet's surface within 4 minutes as long as there's even a single ship in orbit.

But it would work once making it an excellent suicide/surprise weapon especially on somewhere like Coruscant where even Imperial sensors might have difficulty finding it (even if they knew what to look for- that is if it is used their for the first time), especially on the lower levels.
(Smugglers can get into the planet even during the Emperors reign as seen in "Shadows of the empire", all they need to do is hire a half way decent smuggler).

I apologize for the moronic fan wank but someone like Thrawn could use it to excellent use to force an opponent to drop their planetary shield as he forced the republic to maintain the shield with the cloaked bombs.

Coruscant is in the galactic core. That means a trek ship could never have a base near it because the empire/ new/old republic controls all the surrounding planets and the "weak" federation could never take one.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Coruscant is in the galactic core. That means a trek ship could never have a base near it because the empire/ new/old republic controls all the surrounding planets and the "weak" federation could never take one.

So? As I said, hire a smuggler, he doesnt need to know what exactly the device does and he would have an excellent chance to evade planetary security.

Don't tell me that trek can't even hire a smuggler.... actually can they? They are hardly SCircumstances after all. (Section 31 would be happy to do it though
)

[Darth Wong]

But it would work once making it an excellent suicide/surprise weapon especially on somewhere like Coruscant ...

Are you some kind of raving idiot? If you have a weapon which only works once and enrages the Empire to heights of fury never before seen, you have just fucked yourself.

[Darth Wong]

Coruscant is in the galactic core. That means a trek ship could never have a base near it because the empire/ new/old republic controls all the surrounding planets and the "weak" federation could never take one.

So? As I said, hire a smuggler, he doesnt need to know what exactly the device does and he would have an excellent chance to evade planetary security.

You are a raving idiot. Do you think smugglers have some magical power to evade planetary security? They smuggle stuff between worlds where security is lax; they can't force their way past a militarized outpost's defenses.

[The Grim Squeaker]

[quote=“Darth Wong”]
You are a raving idiot. Do you think smugglers have some magical power to evade planetary security? They smuggle stuff between worlds where security is lax; they can’t force their way past a militarized outpost’s defenses.[/quote]

In the book I mentioned (Shadows of the empire) Dash rendar a mercenary sneaks the rebels into coruscant with Chewbacca (an escaped wookie slave [from coruscant]) and the leader of the rebellion in a bounty hunter’s disguise, he said that the techniques for getting into the planet under the cover of another ship were well known and they did do it without any difficulty.
[He did this by hiding in the sensor shadow of another ship- I think, meaning that in a complete quarantine of the planet this would not work but that would not be the case in a surprise attack]

While this probably wouldn’t work more than once (after the imperials know what to scan for) wiping out Coruscant or Byss(very Unlikely though) or Cardissa (The imperial academy- there is at least one known occasion of a cadet stealing some anti-matter and flying a shuttle up to the moon and destroying it [The Han Solo trilogy:The hutt gambit] ) would be quite a boon even if it would only work once.
Although there is only one truly canon example of penetrating a planetary shield of a planet secretly even destroying Coruscant and with it the Emperor’s palace and much of the imperial government would still be a worthy goal for a one time trick.

[Jadetear]

In TWoK when the torpedo when off, it looked like it was just a surface reaction that destroyed everything. I seriously doubt that and installation that had its own shield would be affected by the Genesis effect. So while it would destroy a huge portion of the civilian population, any shielded buildings and anything underground would possibly be safe.

Of course I am not sure if there is a way to prove if the Genesis effect is strong enough to bring down installation shielding.

For the Deathstar it doesn't matter. Everything is gone.