Darth Vader on trial

[000]

And as I said, they're armed and trained in combat as well. We didn't actually see Anakin kill them either, but that's the implication.

The point is he killed fifteen or so six year olds. Sad and cruel, to be sure, but from his perspective they were brainwashed members of an insurrection-- sure to grow up to be a danger to the Empire. It was also in the heat of combat. It's a tradgedy, but not one of Hitleresque proportions.

[Crazedwraith]

And as I said, they're armed and trained in combat as well. We didn't actually see Anakin kill them either, but that's the implication.

What else was he gonna do with his lightsabre? Give them a haircut?

The point is he killed fifteen or so six year olds. Sad and cruel, to be sure, but from his perspective they were brainwashed members of an insurrection-- sure to grow up to be a danger to the Empire. It was also in the heat of combat. It's a tradgedy, but not one of Hitleresque proportions.

Bullshit. The kiddies had some redimentry blaster blocking skills, sure but they were no serious threat to the Empire. They could easily be taken down with non-lethal force and 'reprogrammed' to be lovely members of the new order. There was no need to go slicey dicey on them.

[DrkHelmet]

Bullshit. The kiddies had some redimentry blaster blocking skills, sure but they were no serious threat to the Empire. They could easily be taken down with non-lethal force and 'reprogrammed' to be lovely members of the new order. There was no need to go slicey dicey on them.

Of course they could have, maybe. You've got to remember that they have been ingrained since they were a toddler about the principles of the Jedi order. It would not be a hard leap to assume that, at some later point, they would take what they had learned since and attempt to overthrow the Empire.

[Crazedwraith]

Bullshit. The kiddies had some redimentry blaster blocking skills, sure but they were no serious threat to the Empire. They could easily be taken down with non-lethal force and 'reprogrammed' to be lovely members of the new order. There was no need to go slicey dicey on them.

Of course they could have, maybe. You've got to remember that they have been ingrained since they were a toddler about the principles of the Jedi order. It would not be a hard leap to assume that, at some later point, they would take what they had learned since and attempt to overthrow the Empire.

They were ten

Paly turned grown men like Dooku and Anakin, when the Jedi were still around. Turning ten year olds when no ones around to counter his moves should be childs play.

[DrkHelmet]

They were ten

Paly turned grown men like Dooku and Anakin, when the Jedi were still around. Turning ten year olds when no ones around to counter his moves should be childs play.

And how many did he fail to seduce? How many Jedi looked at the dark side and turned away? Dooku turned because of political ambition, and Anakin turned because he was angry and upset. How many Jedi have kept their cool and resisted the dark side?

[000]

I said they were (from Anakin's perspective) sure to grow up to be a threat, not were at the moment. He's being ruthless but efficient.

Anyway, relating this to the thread topic, the point is that Vader didn't do anything that warrents being branded a mass murderer or whatever, aside from the whole Falleen thing. Even that was done for the greater good, even if it was ruthless.

[Crazedwraith]

Anyway, relating this to the thread topic, the point is that Vader didn't do anything that warrents being branded a mass murderer or whatever,

I seem to recall hearing somewhere, that we didn't accept "I was follwing orders" as an excuse at the Nuremberg trials. Why would the NR be different.

[StarshipTitanic]

While 10 year olds might be a threat, the children cowering in the Jedi Council room were certainly no threat and there was no way for them to grow up to be Jedi.

[brianeyci]

The whole thing revolves around whether Palpatine could have turned the kids. That's easy to answer -- the kids trusted Anakin.

Child : "What do we do, there's too many of them."

Anakin : "Come with me. There's nothing to fear."

Brian

[Lord of the Abyss]

I remember a quote from one of the Thrawn books about Vader : "He had the blood of billions on his hands, and a long career ahead". That sounds pretty bad.

He's to useful to just kill, however. Keep him under Luke's guard to mollify anyone who doesn't trust his reformation and use him as a source of intel and Jedi knowledge.

[Ender]

And as I said, they're armed and trained in combat as well. We didn't actually see Anakin kill them either, but that's the implication.

The point is he killed fifteen or so six year olds. Sad and cruel, to be sure, but from his perspective they were brainwashed members of an insurrection-- sure to grow up to be a danger to the Empire. It was also in the heat of combat. It's a tradgedy, but not one of Hitleresque proportions.

Care to try and justify the slaughter of Tusken children as well? They were certainly not armed nor were they a threat - in the novel the kid was fetching water IIRC and Anakin murders it.

[Ender]

Vader's a mass murderer on the scale of Hitler? Since when?

They called him the Chosen One. Then he murdered billions and they gave him other names.

[Noble Ire]

Care to try and justify the slaughter of Tusken children as well? They were certainly not armed nor were they a threat - in the novel the kid was fetching water IIRC and Anakin murders it.

Actually, most of the males in the Tusken village were armed, and would have probably attacked Anakin even if he wasnt hostile. However, the deaths of the women and children is a serious black mark.

[Drooling Iguana]

Care to try and justify the slaughter of Tusken children as well? They were certainly not armed nor were they a threat - in the novel the kid was fetching water IIRC and Anakin murders it.

Actually, most of the males in the Tusken village were armed, and would have probably attacked Anakin even if he wasnt hostile. However, the deaths of the women and children is a serious black mark.

I got the impression that people generally don't consider Sandpeople to be on the same level as other sentients in the Star Wars galaxy. They consider them to basically be animals with a basically human shape.

[Noble Ire]

I got the impression that people generally don't consider Sandpeople to be on the same level as other sentients in the Star Wars galaxy. They consider them to basically be animals with a basically human shape.

They're intellegent enough to use advanced hunting tactics, limited tech, and they have a strong oral tradition and history. Thus, they're about on the level of aborigines.

[Vympel]

Anakin is one seriously fucked up person. Of course, Padme would have to be pretty fucked up too to carry on a relationship with a confessed child murderer (Tusken raider kids), and she still wanted Anakin to come away with her even when she knew he had killed Younglings!

The Tusken raider kids were probably viewed as little more than animals, but the Younglings- I don't care how Anakin thought of it as he killed them, its no justification, hes a fucking monster.

[Drooling Iguana]

I got the impression that people generally don't consider Sandpeople to be on the same level as other sentients in the Star Wars galaxy. They consider them to basically be animals with a basically human shape.

They're intellegent enough to use advanced hunting tactics, limited tech, and they have a strong oral tradition and history. Thus, they're about on the level of aborigines.

We as the viewers see that, but the characters in the movies didn't, which makes it doubtful that Anakin's slaughtering of the Tuskens would be seen as an atrocity if he was brought to trial.

[Noble Ire]

We as the viewers see that, but the characters in the movies didn't, which makes it doubtful that Anakin's slaughtering of the Tuskens would be seen as an atrocity if he was brought to trial.

Perhaps if he was tried on some back water like Tatooine, but if the trial was in the core, it would be an issue. Since they are obviously intellegent, and the core world dwellers wouldn't have the same prejudices against them as say moisture farmers, they would simply see the incident as more murdering.

[weemadando]

And another question - how would you hold Vader should you choose to imprison him?

The fact that he lacks arms in the OT means that its evident he's learnt to use the force without "gestures" meaning that the rayshield/immobilisation system used to hold Obi Wan would be almost completely negated. Any prison cell would have be fucking well built considering the damage he did to the med-chamber, and there better not be a guard anywhere nearby that he could influence...

Lets face it - he either turns and has many assassin droids with weapons trained on him 24 hours a day in case he tries something, or he is executed. And personally I think execution is the only safe bet.

[DrkHelmet]

And another question - how would you hold Vader should you choose to imprison him?

The fact that he lacks arms in the OT means that its evident he's learnt to use the force without "gestures" meaning that the rayshield/immobilisation system used to hold Obi Wan would be almost completely negated. Any prison cell would have be fucking well built considering the damage he did to the med-chamber, and there better not be a guard anywhere nearby that he could influence...

There's only one pheasable way to restrain him. You must have another Jedi to guard him. At the time period, that's just Luke.

[Noble Ire]

Ysalamari?

[Ender]

And another question - how would you hold Vader should you choose to imprison him?

The fact that he lacks arms in the OT means that its evident he's learnt to use the force without "gestures" meaning that the rayshield/immobilisation system used to hold Obi Wan would be almost completely negated. Any prison cell would have be fucking well built considering the damage he did to the med-chamber, and there better not be a guard anywhere nearby that he could influence...

Lets face it - he either turns and has many assassin droids with weapons trained on him 24 hours a day in case he tries something, or he is executed. And personally I think execution is the only safe bet.

knock him out, strip off his armor, pt him in a stationary chamber where he can survive. Thus he can't get around, and any attempt to do something like in the med center kills him by destroying the equipment keeping him alive. When its time for trial just do a live feed to the chamber for his testimony and such.

[CDiehl]

I don't get why people are trying to defend Vader's actions. He killed untold millions of innocent people, and let millions more be killed for no reason, when he had the ability to stop it. He could have escorted the younglings out of the temple and brought them to Palpatine to teach them about the Force. He could have just gathered up his mother's body and brought her home. He could have told Tarkin to blow up some lifeless planet somewhere to test the Death Star. He could have killed Palpatine the instant he learned he was the Sith Lord they'd been seeking all those years, then taken the consequences. He had options, he chose of his own free will not to use them, and for that he has to die.

[Trytostaydead]

And another question - how would you hold Vader should you choose to imprison him?

The fact that he lacks arms in the OT means that its evident he's learnt to use the force without "gestures" meaning that the rayshield/immobilisation system used to hold Obi Wan would be almost completely negated. Any prison cell would have be fucking well built considering the damage he did to the med-chamber, and there better not be a guard anywhere nearby that he could influence...

Lets face it - he either turns and has many assassin droids with weapons trained on him 24 hours a day in case he tries something, or he is executed. And personally I think execution is the only safe bet.

Well, at the end of ROTJ Vader is dead. All that exists is Anakin Skywalker. So if Luke managed to save his life as well as his soul, I think holding him wouldn't be a problem. Though they would be paranoid as shit.

[Noble Ire]

The point of this IMO, is whether or not Anakin/ Vader are really different people. It can be argued that Anakin, while being a seriously messed up bastard, perpitrated most of his atrocities under the influence of Palpatine/Dark Side, and while he was still responsible for those actions, he was not entire complacent (ie being temporarily insane as an example) Thus, since Vader is destroyed at the end of ROTJ, then Anakin has returned, and cannot be fully charged for his actions. If one does not see it this way and Vader still exists in a way, then he is an evil mass murder who deserves death, even if he did eliminate a greater evil.

If the dark side is a mitigating circumstance, then Anakin should still pay for what he did, but execution might not be justified. I think that Anakin's redemption only works since he died in the process, and only Luke, Obi-wan, and Yoda forgave him. If he had survived, his sacrafices would not have been enough to redeem him, especially in the eyes of the galaxy at large. I personally believe if Anakin had survived, he probably would have commited suicide from the guilt of his actions unleashed after decades of repression.