An interesting remark in AOTC

[Ted C]

I Eps 1 and 2 over the July 4th weekend, and Anakin said something potentially revealing in AOTC.

While complimenting Obi-Wan to Padme, he said something to the effect...

He's as powerful as Master Windu and as wise as Master Yoda.

There's an implication in his statement that Master Windu is generally considered the most powerful member of the Jedi Order.

The fact that Windu was able to defeat Darth Sidious while Yoda was not supports the claim.

It would mean that Mace Windu has greater sheer power and endurance than Yoda, even though Yoda might have more knowledge and versatility.

That seem right to you?

[Crazedwraith]

I always assumed that Mace wasn't more powerful than Yoda and neither was Obi-Wan. I don't seem how some hyperbole from Anakin can be assumed as an accurate description of relative power.

And I don't even see the implication myself.

[PainRack]

Powerful in this case would appear to be more of a case of Lightsabre skill and sheer combat powress, as opposed to Yoda knowledge of the Force. After all, we don't see Windu probing the Dark Side.

[nightmare]

The fact that Windu was able to defeat Darth Sidious while Yoda was not supports the claim.

Staged. Palpatine only began to "loose" when Anakin had landed and was close. Even after he was supposedly defenceless he had enough juice left to fry Mace's ass for good and feel like a breeze afterwards. The whole pruneface thing from using up too much power just doesn't work unless you think he used a much weaker lightning against Yoda, even though it threw him across the room unlike any previous force lightning we have seen. Not to mention all the other times FL have been used by Palpy and others. It is much more workable that he threw away a disguise, the same one that kept him presentable and hid from the Jedi while he built up his power.

Plus what PainRack already said. Mace was famous for his lightsaber skills.

[VT-16]

"If you'd spend as much time working on your saber skills as you do on your wit, young Padawan, you would rival Master Yoda as a swordsman."

Windu is probably more easily visible as a fighter than Yoda, at least before the CW, but it seems Yoda´s still the best there is, if Obi-Wan´s remark is to be believed.

[Vympel]

Mike beat you to this, Ted

[The Original Nex]

Staged. Palpatine only began to "loose" when Anakin had landed and was close. Even after he was supposedly defenceless he had enough juice left to fry Mace's ass for good and feel like a breeze afterwards. The whole pruneface thing from using up too much power just doesn't work unless you think he used a much weaker lightning against Yoda, even though it threw him across the room unlike any previous force lightning we have seen. Not to mention all the other times FL have been used by Palpy and others. It is much more workable that he threw away a disguise, the same one that kept him presentable and hid from the Jedi while he built up his power.

There's nothing to suggest that Palaptine threw the fight. The novelization actually support that Mace beat Palpatine fair and square, and that Palps was unable to overcome Mace's saber skills.

[FTeik]

I Eps 1 and 2 over the July 4th weekend, and Anakin said something potentially revealing in AOTC.

While complimenting Obi-Wan to Padme, he said something to the effect...

He's as powerful as Master Windu and as wise as Master Yoda.

There's an implication in his statement that Master Windu is generally considered the most powerful member of the Jedi Order.

The fact that Windu was able to defeat Darth Sidious while Yoda was not supports the claim.

It would mean that Mace Windu has greater sheer power and endurance than Yoda, even though Yoda might have more knowledge and versatility.

That seem right to you?

In the same sentence Anakin also claims to be superior to Obi-Wan (and by that to be superior to Mace and Yoda). And Mace didn't even came close to what Yoda did in AOTC or in ROTS.

And Palpatine threw the fight in ROTS, if you ask me. If not with the lightsaber, than at least with the Force.

[nightmare]

There's nothing to suggest that Palaptine threw the fight. The novelization actually support that Mace beat Palpatine fair and square, and that Palps was unable to overcome Mace's saber skills.

As far as lightsaber fighting goes.

[Dooey Jo]

Bah! Yoda probably threw the fight with Palpatine anyway. Just see how he owns him with Palpatine's own Force Lightning. He did it so that his masterplan of training Luke to kill Vader and Palpatine could work.

It's not like it's any stupider than that Palpatine would have thrown the fight with Windu

[VT-16]

Actually, Yoda had a harder time than Mace. The lightning explosion at the end only knocked Palps out of his senate pod, while Yoda got flung far away. Palps also lifted several pods at once, while Yoda had to dodge them.

[nightmare]

It's not like it's any stupider than that Palpatine would have thrown the fight with Windu.

Yes it is. Palpatine had a very good reason to, he was obviously playing on Anakin's emotions to win him over. Once Anakin took his stance, Palpy proved that he had plenty more juice where it came from.

Yoda didn't have any reason to stage an act whatsoever. "Failed I have."

[seanrobertson]

I Eps 1 and 2 over the July 4th weekend, and Anakin said something potentially revealing in AOTC.

While complimenting Obi-Wan to Padme, he said something to the effect...

He's as powerful as Master Windu and as wise as Master Yoda.

There's an implication in his statement that Master Windu is generally considered the most powerful member of the Jedi Order.
*snip*

Ted,

If, as Anakin said, Obi-Wan was as wise as Yoda and as powerful as Windu, would that not make Obi-Wan the top dog in the Order--the best of both worlds?

That's demonstratably false (Obi-Wan v. Dooku, round 1 or 2), so perhaps Anakin only means to underscore Obi-Wan's well-roundedness. The Windu and Yoda equivalence could summarily be dismissed as hyperbole.

So, if we didn't dismiss the statement as total garbage (which wouldn't be all that terrible: Anakin is prone to spouting nonsense; e.g., his assertion that he already rivalled Yoda's lightsaber skills), we're still left with the notion of Windu as most powerful.

However, that doesn't really mesh with other things we hear. For instance, Palpatine told Anakin: "In time, I see you becoming the greatest of all Jedi--even more powerful than Master Yoda."

That needs no explanation. Palpatine's a liar, but he's a skilled liar. To mention Yoda thusly at least indicates he is publically regarded as the Order's most powerful member.

More interesting still is what we learn in behind-the-scenes commentary (AOTC's? Brian would know). I should remember the fellow's name, but I can't This is what he looks like:



Whoever the guy is, he was involved in the prequels' production. He said:

"We've not seen Mace fight yet, and we know that he's second only to Yoda."

In the same feature, Samuel L. adds something to the effect that his character is "supposed to be the second-baddest dude in the universe" (or the like).

[Noble Ire]

Thats fight Choreographer Nic Gillard by the way.

[Kane Starkiller]

I can't help but compare the Palpatine vs Yoda fight with the Palpatine vs Mace. I mean the fight with Yoda was a whole new level. The speed at which they parry one another is much greater than with Mace, not to mention the Force usage. And this is after Palpatine supposedly got fried by lightning. In the fight with Mace Palpatine dispatches three jedi masters effortlessly all the while being within Mace's reach. After that he just grimaces and does a few slow lightsaber moves which would get him sliced apart by Yoda in five seconds.

[seanrobertson]

Thats fight Choreographer Nic Gillard by the way.

Yes! That's him. Thanks

If we treat those on-set commentaries as authoritative, the only trouble would be to figure out what SLJ meant by Mace as "second-baddest dude in the universe." Since Palpatine's powers weren't yet revealed, I'd understand his comment as "second-baddest [known] dude in the universe."

Or, someone could take it literally, concluding Windu and Yoda were both more powerful than Sidious. I think that's a stretch, especially considering the source's date; but, as many "did Sidious throw the Mace fight?" threads as we've had already, I'm not inclined to debate the point too rigorously either

[Aquatain]

He's as powerful as Master Windu and as wise as Master Yoda.

Actually all this sentance says is "He's as powerful as Master Windu and as wise as Master Yoda."

If anakin belives Obi-wan's powers are weaker than yoda's,but rivals mace's the sentance still works.

If anakin belives that mace is the most powerfull jedi and yoda holds most wisdom, the sentance still works.

If anakin feelt it nessasary to compare Obi-wan to two public and well know jedis so Padme would have a picture of what he was trying to say,the sentance still works..true or not.

[HemlockGrey]

It could be that Anakin has simply never seen Yoda fight, and regards Mace as being more powerful since he's bigger, looks stronger and tougher, projects a more badass attitude and probably goes into combat missions more often.

[Cykeisme]

Bah, here's that "levels of power" thing again.

Before trying to figure out whose Power Rating bar is longer, recall that skill with a lightsaber and knowledge of the Force are two separate things. Yoda's definitely far ahead of Mace in terms of his understanding of the Force (and his ability to manipulate it), but lightsaber combat is a different issue.

Besides supposedly being pretty skilled, Mace's size and reach simply cannot be discounted.. unless, of course, you have absolutely no idea about swordfighting of any kind AND no rational thinking ability.


Also, Palpatine may have struck down the first two Jedi Masters quickly, but he might have been somehow stunning them with the Force. They didn't move at all, besides a two second windup that anyone could've seen coming even without Force precognition. Assuming this is the case, whatever he used on them, Mace and Yoda are either resistant to it, or were ready for it.

[Crazedwraith]

I still don't understand how this sentance can be used as a description of the relative power/wisdom of Yoda and Mace. He's talking about Obi-Wan

It doesn't matter if Yoda is stronger than Mace in this context. All it says is Obi-Wan is similar in power level to Windu. Nothing more.

[Darth Wong]

The next person who posts "Palpatine threw the fight" in this thread without addressing the counter-arguments raised in all of the previous threads about this exact same subject is going to pay.

I hate seeing the same damned thing come up over and over in such a short period of time with no reference to previous (huge) discussions of that very subject.

[Dark]

Well i'd say yoda is stronger with the force.

Also, Palpatine may have struck down the first two Jedi Masters quickly, but he might have been somehow stunning them with the Force. They didn't move at all, besides a two second windup that anyone could've seen coming even without Force precognition. Assuming this is the case, whatever he used on them, Mace and Yoda are either resistant to it, or were ready for it.

Now its just my opinion but i think Palpatine might just of been moving really fast and that Mace is stronger with the force then the jedi that died so he was able to keep up.

Just my opinion.

[Freeman's Trigger-Finger]

Painrack
After all, we don't see Windu probing the Dark Side.

False. Mace adopts the Vapaad form in lightsabre combat, which harnesses dark-energies otherwised only used by dark-Jedi and Sith. I dont have the ROTS novelisation on hand, but theres something in there mentioning how one must give him or herself over to the dark-energies of the force and allow it to control your every move, while still understanding it's implications as something which can subvert the light side. Bascially, it's towing the line of both light and dark.

This is probaly the reason Mace is often (falsely) regarded as the superior fighter in the order, and Yoda as the wiser. Mace was the only Jedi at the time who used Vappad, given it's level of difficulty and danger in mastering.

[Dooey Jo]

Yes it is. Palpatine had a very good reason to, he was obviously playing on Anakin's emotions to win him over. Once Anakin took his stance, Palpy proved that he had plenty more juice where it came from.

No it showed he had more Force Lightning, whereever that comes from. Did you not notice that all Mace would have had to do in order to kill Palpatine was to move his lightsabre a few more inches forwards (and this before Anakin even enters the office)? If Mace hadn't talked so much, proving what a bad-ass he is and all that, Palpatine would have been dead. If Mace had made a stab instead of the swing into Anakin's lightsabre that cut his hand off, Palpatine would have been dead. If Palpatine threw the fight, he's not a scheming mastermind, he's a suicidal lunatic (which his RotJ "plan" may or may not further assert).

Palpatine already had Anakin on his side, otherwise he would have never gone to his office in the first place. His change to the dark side started in his scene in the Jedi Council room (when he's thinking of Padmé) and ended with "Noooo". Mace already being dead when he arrived at Palpatine's wouldn't have changed anything

Yoda didn't have any reason to stage an act whatsoever. "Failed I have."

Maybe he thought the galaxy would be better of, if it got to learn the consequences of letting the Sith rule. Then again, Palpatine didn't have any reason to stage an act of being defeated either, now did he? Anyhow, what makes both ideas stupid, is that they go against what we (quite clearly) see on screen and relies on "author's intention".


To stray less from the OP I'll say that you cannot conclude anything about anyone from that statement. If you take it literary, and not some metaphor, it says that
Power(Obi) = Power(Windu)
Wisdom(Obi) = Wisdom(Yoda)
It does not say that the Power/Wisdom of either is greater than the other. One could object and say that Anakin was trying to tell Padmé how great Obi was, so why would he use them as an example if they weren't the best? Well then you're acknowledging that is a metaphor so the truth of the statement is questionable at best. It suggests though, that Anakin thinks that Windu is the most powerful Jedi and Yoda is the wisest Jedi. But what does he really know about anything?

[nightmare]

No it showed he had more Force Lightning, whereever that comes from. Did you not notice that all Mace would have had to do in order to kill Palpatine was to move his lightsabre a few more inches forwards (and this before Anakin even enters the office)? If Mace hadn't talked so much, proving what a bad-ass he is and all that, Palpatine would have been dead. If Mace had made a stab instead of the swing into Anakin's lightsabre that cut his hand off, Palpatine would have been dead. If Palpatine threw the fight, he's not a scheming mastermind, he's a suicidal lunatic (which his RotJ "plan" may or may not further assert).

You missed the point. Mace may have won the lightsaber fight, but that was obviously not enough for him to win. Dramatic license aside, Palpatine must have felt that Mace wasn't ready to strike yet when they stopped for a pose and a chat. Do you really think Palpy would have waited with the force lightning if Mace was about to strike immediately?

Palpatine already had Anakin on his side, otherwise he would have never gone to his office in the first place. His change to the dark side started in his scene in the Jedi Council room (when he's thinking of Padmé) and ended with "Noooo". Mace already being dead when he arrived at Palpatine's wouldn't have changed anything

Did you miss the whole scene set up for Anakin to make the final choice between Mace and Palpatine, light or dark? Up until that moment his case was undetermined.

Yoda didn't have any reason to stage an act whatsoever. "Failed I have."

Maybe he thought the galaxy would be better of, if it got to learn the consequences of letting the Sith rule. Then again, Palpatine didn't have any reason to stage an act of being defeated either, now did he? Anyhow, what makes both ideas stupid, is that they go against what we (quite clearly) see on screen and relies on "author's intention".

Fine, let's just say it like this then. Yoda = fled, Mace = dead, Palpy = Emperor. No reading of intentions in a scene needed.

But tell you what, if you want to go around and believe Mace could win by his own when Yoda couldn't, fine by me, this topic has gone on long enough already. I don't really care about it. I just think you are deluding yourself.