Martians and Disease

[Stravo]

We all know the classic ending to War of the Worlds with the Martians dying of disease that they have no immunity to. I recall reading an article many years ago that said that Aliens dying from terrestrial diseases is bunk because there is no compatability between earth bound micorbes and bacteria and alien tissue and DNA.

I could be phrasing this incorrectly but the gist was that the alien organism would not prove a fertile breeding ground for our own earth bound bacteria and as such the ending to WotW was not entirely accurate.

I have no idea what to make of this claim but having read a few books (in particular Guns Germs and Steel) where diseases are shown to 'jump' from species to species whose to say that an Earthbound virus or bacteria couldn't make a similar jump to aliens.

Also why didn't Martian diseases and the like do a tit for tat against the human population and devastate it with say for example the Martian common cold that annhilates 70% of the world population in weeks? Was there too limited contact to make a similar transfer over to the human population? We see in the first contact between Europe and the New World that the Indians gave the Europeans Syphillis while the Europeans gave them smallpox.

EDIT: Moved to a more appropriate forum.

[RedImperator]

Viruses are very species-specific and probably wouldn't jump to an alien organism (they wouldn't be able to find the specific cells to which they attach). Certain bacteria, fungi and protozoans, though, I don't see why they couldn't, assuming the aliens' biochemistry was similar enough.

In the case of the WOTW novel, there's a current theory that Earth was seeded with the first amino acids from space early in its history. If this is true, Earth and Mars might have been seeded from the same stock, and so despite billions of years of divergent evolution, life from each planet shares certain biochemical similarities.

As for why the Martians didn't infect us, it's speculated the Martians wiped out all pathogens on their homeworld, leaving them with nearly useless immune systems and no ability to infect humans. The 1953 movie took a different tack, and showed the Martians (and presumably all Martian life) as being primitive biologically, and so our diseases ravaged them while their diseases were demolished by our immune systems in short order.

[Sriad]

Bacteria beating aliens is just barely feasible (if they have a general bio-chemistry similar to ours the bacteria could eat them okay, but their immune systems general defences would probably

The virus problem is quite right though. Viruses reproduce by cannibalizing their victem's cells to do the work for them, which is a highly specialized function, hence viruses being transmitted between species is fairly rare, even between relatively close species. The common cold wiping out a Martian invasion is less likely than a squid getting HIV.

There ARE some trans-species viral diseases, but they are rare, and our cellular make-up is likely to be more similar to our molluscular friend than that of an alien.

So yea, bacterial infection seems improbable but concievable, viral infection seems like it would have a vanishingly remote chance.

(I could well be overlooking somethin', but I'm pretty sure on this)

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

We all know the classic ending to War of the Worlds with the Martians dying of disease that they have no immunity to. I recall reading an article many years ago that said that Aliens dying from terrestrial diseases is bunk because there is no compatability between earth bound micorbes and bacteria and alien tissue and DNA.

I could be phrasing this incorrectly but the gist was that the alien organism would not prove a fertile breeding ground for our own earth bound bacteria and as such the ending to WotW was not entirely accurate.

I have no idea what to make of this claim but having read a few books (in particular Guns Germs and Steel) where diseases are shown to 'jump' from species to species whose to say that an Earthbound virus or bacteria couldn't make a similar jump to aliens.

Also why didn't Martian diseases and the like do a tit for tat against the human population and devastate it with say for example the Martian common cold that annhilates 70% of the world population in weeks? Was there too limited contact to make a similar transfer over to the human population? We see in the first contact between Europe and the New World that the Indians gave the Europeans Syphillis while the Europeans gave them smallpox.

EDIT: Moved to a more appropriate forum.

Yes, it would be incredibly unlikely that a human disease would be able to affect an alien life-form. While a bacterial infection might take hold and thrive in an alien, first the Earthly bacteria would have to displace the non-Earthly microbes that already inhabit the alien, and are better-adapted to conditions on it. Furthermore, the bacteria would then be subject to the alien immune system, which is tuned to rejecting biological pathogens that it doesn't recognize.

For viruses, it's even worse. They require certain receptor proteins to be available on the surface of a cell, so they can latch on and hijack the celll into making more viruses. The reason viruses can jump from species to species is that cells in some differing species have receptor protiens that are similar in shape. Viruses, having none of the DNA repair mechanisms that cells do, are also subject to incredible mutation rates. Thus, it takes only a minor modification (in some cases) to change the virus's coat just enough to fit onto the cellular receptor proteins. If we assume alien life uses DNA, there are a mind-boggling number of proteins that DNA can code for, and many of these proteins can have most of their amino acids substituted for other amino acids and still function. It gets even stranger if the alien life-form has evolved from some other complex self-replicating molecule . . . which would code for an entirely different host of proteins.

About the worst Earthly pathogens might be able to do to an alien, whose immune system wasn't already compromised (in which case, it would likely fall victim to a combined bacterial onslaught from its own bacteria and whatever microbes find alien proteins to be nourishing), is possibly induce some sort of severe allergy leading to anaphylactic shock.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Very likely, the aliens would have a vastly different biology from ours, especially considering the difference in the environments they've adapted to. Mars is nearly devoid of water, has a very thin atmosphere, and is very cold compared to Earth. Martian physiology would very likely be so completely different that whatever pathogens that could be exchanged would do nothing.

In Niven's Known Space, for example, the Martians are primitive (stone age) silicon-based life forms. As a result, the chemical most toxic to them is simple water, which is highly corrosive to their physiology. (I think this is where M. Night Shymalananman--whatever the spelling is--got the idea for the Signs aliens, though he executed it very poorly).

[Setesh]

Since the red slime mold or whatever, could thrive on human and cow blood, they must be at least somewhat compatible with us biologically. also the time it took for them to start dying it may have been something that infected the red plant, which is important to them for some reason. Wether it is a food source or some kind of biologic terraforming equipment it was dying first, so what ever killed it must have been capable of spreading to the 'Martians'. Most likely it was something completely innocuous to life here but incredibly common. I vote for the humble ameoba, its a voracious vicious predator, that is almost completely harmless to most multicellular life.

Anouther possibility is common bread mold, weird as it sounds people have on occasion gotten infections of the stuff in their lungs, and never gotten rid of it. Once this stuff takes hold like that its nearly impossible to get rid of. As long as they had lungs and some basic sugers in their biology the stuff would congest their lungs in days. There's a woman who was on 60 minutes once who hada strain in her lungs for 22 years, they could beat it back but never kill it off. Most anti-biotics are only partially efective against it.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Forget the totally different biochemistry crap. If it isn't carbon based, it's magical. EVERY organism of complexity will be carbon based, it's that simple. Silicon organisms are one of the annoying brainbugs I hate just like fusion reactors blowing or sound in space.

That said, the Martians were like us anyway. They could consume our blood, chose our planet for colonisation and so were carbon based unless stated otherwise. Same with the aliens in the new movie.

I have already gone over it before, but it is not impossible for previously alien organisms to take quite well to another organism that hasn't had contact with it before. This happens a lot with new strains of organism today which can, for all intents and purposes, be entirely different to the point that the immune defences, namely humoral, have no way of detecting the pathogen until disease sets in. Indeed, it is the organism that is able to grow in a body undetected and without an immune defence that will cause damage. Since these aliens were like us, a bacterial, or eukaryotic microbe could easily get into their bodies through various means. Since these aliens had apparently taken care of such diseases long ago, they overlooked this problem and our microbes had free reign to compete with what if any fauna existed inside the alien being. Within a few days or maybe weeks, they would succumb to septicaemia or encephalitis or nephronitis or bronchitis and it would likely lead to death. In the case of this story, the alien invaders were so far gone they couldn't even operate their machines correctly (the death cries from the book/musical, the saucer crashing in the Pal movie, the tripod not fighting back and falling in the Spielberg movie).

NEVER underestimate microbes in adapting. They are the most versatile things in the known universe and complacency has left us with more resistant and deadly strains and emerging diseases than ever. The Martians may have cured their ailments, but they may never have had the misfortune of finding MRSA crawling up their front yards.

It can't be called a deus ex machina by any stretch given Wells, unlike many authors or writers (ST: Voyager, if it had writers) was building up to this demise for reasons I have mentioned.

Now I'll tell you something that is stupid. A Mac written virus affecting alien hardware...

[Elmca]

... it's speculated the Martians wiped out all pathogens on their homeworld, leaving them with nearly useless immune systems and no ability to infect humans.

At any rate, in all the bodies of the Martians that were examined after the war, no bacteria except those already known as terrestrial species were found. That they did not bury any of their dead, and the reckless slaughter they perpetrated, point also to an entire ignorance of the putrefactive process. But probable as this seems, it is by no means a proven conclusion.

That's the idea Wells had, I believe.

Linky +http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/www/warworlds/warw.html+

[Lord of the Abyss]

Forget the totally different biochemistry crap. If it isn't carbon based, it's magical. EVERY organism of complexity will be carbon based, it's that simple. Silicon organisms are one of the annoying brainbugs I hate just like fusion reactors blowing or sound in space.

Nitpick : The difference might be in using amino acids we don't ( IIRC we use of a small subset of the possible ones ) or some other major difference in chemical structure instead of being silicon based. It wouldn't need to be "totally different", just really, really different to keep Earth pathogens from affecting Martian life.

That being said, if Martian life can consume Earth life, the opposite should be quite possible. The difference between biochemistries needn't be all that large if the theories about bacterial transfer between planets via meteorite are correct.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Organisms have been seen to rearrange the amino acid alphabet we saw once as immutable. I don't see a few different amino acids as being a large hurdle assuming they still use the 20 ones that life here uses. There are over 90 amino acids, IIRC, but all life uses those couple of dozen.

I find it somewhat unlikely their biochemistry would significantly differ from that of terran species to the point of total incompatibility. And if anything were to adapt to the aliens, microbes would be fastest.

[Junghalli]

At any rate, in all the bodies of the Martians that were examined after the war, no bacteria except those already known as terrestrial species were found. That they did not bury any of their dead, and the reckless slaughter they perpetrated, point also to an entire ignorance of the putrefactive process. But probable as this seems, it is by no means a proven conclusion.

Uh, if their ecosystem didn't have decomposers wouldn't that mean that their whole planet would be buried under mummified dead stuff in a couple of years?

I think this is where M. Night Shymalananman--whatever the spelling is--got the idea for the Signs aliens, though he executed it very poorly

My theory was always that it wasn't that water itself that was lethal to the aliens, it was something we put in it (like chlorine or flouride).
Not that this cancels out the monumental stupidity of failing to equip their soldiers with ranged weapons, body armor, NBC protection, or even fucking knives. Jesus, TNG Klingons would slaughter these guys!

[Lord of the Abyss]

Uh, if their ecosystem didn't have decomposers wouldn't that mean that their whole planet would be buried under mummified dead stuff in a couple of years?

Maybe the dead on Mars are all scavenged by insect-analogs like mammal hair on Earth - or something else that can't infect anything alive.

[That NOS Guy]

My theory was always that it wasn't that water itself that was lethal to the aliens, it was something we put in it (like chlorine or flouride).
Not that this cancels out the monumental stupidity of failing to equip their soldiers with ranged weapons, body armor, NBC protection, or even fucking knives. Jesus, TNG Klingons would slaughter these guys!

Which is great until you realize it was a morality play and that the aliens were walking plot devices.

[RedImperator]

My theory was always that it wasn't that water itself that was lethal to the aliens, it was something we put in it (like chlorine or flouride).
Not that this cancels out the monumental stupidity of failing to equip their soldiers with ranged weapons, body armor, NBC protection, or even fucking knives. Jesus, TNG Klingons would slaughter these guys!

Which is great until you realize it was a morality play and that the aliens were walking plot devices.

They were McGuffins, but to satisfy the SDN side of me, I always assumed that 1) it was the chlorine in the water that killed them, not the water itself, or they would have been slowly melting from the humidity in the air, and 2) it wasn't a serious invasion, but some kind of rite of passage for their warriors, or they were just doing it for fun, like a hunting trip.

[Junghalli]

They were McGuffins, but to satisfy the SDN side of me, I always assumed that 1) it was the chlorine in the water that killed them, not the water itself, or they would have been slowly melting from the humidity in the air

Also goes a long way toward explaining why they'd want a planet where water rains from the sky and forms giant oceans on the surface, when it's supposedly poison to them.

and 2) it wasn't a serious invasion, but some kind of rite of passage for their warriors, or they were just doing it for fun, like a hunting trip.

That would explain a lot. The Commando Theory might have had some half-assed sense if said commandos had been equipped with sniper and assault rifle-analogs, body armor, and other such things.

I have no idea what to make of this claim but having read a few books (in particular Guns Germs and Steel) where diseases are shown to 'jump' from species to species whose to say that an Earthbound virus or bacteria couldn't make a similar jump to aliens.

Not trying to hijack the thread, but I was watching a documentary on PBS all about the guy who wrote that book, and something occured to me.
I wonder what he'd make of the Necrons (from an SOD viewpoint of course). His theory is basically that how far a civilization advanced all depends on the hand nature deals it in its homeland. But the Necron homeworld was a radiation-flooded desert planet, and they became the most advanced civilization in their galaxy. I wonder how his theory would deal with that.

[Lord of the Abyss]

I wonder how his theory would deal with that.

He'd say "The Necrons are fictional".

In universe, he'd say they weren't humans so the rules are different. Humans in that situation would either all die or never make it past the stone age.

[Civil War Man]

Uh, if their ecosystem didn't have decomposers wouldn't that mean that their whole planet would be buried under mummified dead stuff in a couple of years?

Well, they were trying to colonize Earth.

Alien 1: Honey, it really smells here. Should we fling all these corpses out into space or something?
Alien 2: Nah, I have a better idea. That planet over there isn't covered with dead things. Let's take it.

[Molyneux]

and 2) it wasn't a serious invasion, but some kind of rite of passage for their warriors, or they were just doing it for fun, like a hunting trip.

That would explain a lot. The Commando Theory might have had some half-assed sense if said commandos had been equipped with sniper and assault rifle-analogs, body armor, and other such things.

*ahem* Predator...so VERY Predator...and it was better cinema, too, both Pred 1 and 2.

[Imperial Overlord]

Not trying to hijack the thread, but I was watching a documentary on PBS all about the guy who wrote that book, and something occured to me.
I wonder what he'd make of the Necrons (from an SOD viewpoint of course). His theory is basically that how far a civilization advanced all depends on the hand nature deals it in its homeland. But the Necron homeworld was a radiation-flooded desert planet, and they became the most advanced civilization in their galaxy. I wonder how his theory would deal with that.

Well, his theory deals with the development of competing human groups. So he would analyze what advantages the dominant group of Necrons developed that allowed their civilization to take over the planet.

[wolveraptor]

OT, but did anyone else get a strong Intelligent Design vibe from the movie? The last narrative bit especially, "And God in his infinite wisdom placed bacteria...etc."

[Kettch]

OT, but did anyone else get a strong Intelligent Design vibe from the movie? The last narrative bit especially, "And God in his infinite wisdom placed bacteria...etc."

Well it was the 50s

Have to use our faith to show up those godless commies!

BTW: WotWs is largely inspired / a commentary on colonialism. Until quinine (sp?) Europeans were being killed in droves by Malaria, no to mention all of the other types of 'jungle fever'. Well just didn't realize that the disease traffix was 2 way.

(Which makes you wonder, would the Martians attempt a second invasion, w/ better biological protection? If they could transmit the bad news home. Maybe they would feel they had to, to prevent an angry counter invation by Her Magesty's Space fleet, & their army of walkers.)

[NecronLord]

His theory is basically that how far a civilization advanced all depends on the hand nature deals it in its homeland. But the Necron homeworld was a radiation-flooded desert planet, and they became the most advanced civilization in their galaxy. I wonder how his theory would deal with that.

It became one when the Nightbringer anally raped its star. It was not like that initially.

[NecronLord]

Which is great until you realize it was a morality play and that the aliens were walking plot devices.

As can be said about all trek aliens.

[wolveraptor]

(Which makes you wonder, would the Martians attempt a second invasion, w/ better biological protection? If they could transmit the bad news home. Maybe they would feel they had to, to prevent an angry counter invation by Her Magesty's Space fleet, & their army of walkers.)

The fact that they were so technologically advanced, yet they fell to bacteria indicates to me that they truly didn't understand disease, and how it made them fail. If they really had been planning this for millions of years, they should've had some time to think about little technicalities such as this. Therefore, they probably just didn't get it, and wouldn't understand why they suddenly started to die.

[Zoink]

I never saw a problem with the bacteria thing itself.

The movie implies the Martians are made up of similar/compatible organic material as us, at minimum material that our bacteria can affect/eat. Must all aliens be like this? No, but in this case it is. Maybe there is a common ancestry or something, or maybe its just luck.

They likely have no bacteria (or got rid of them long ago) on their planet, or have bacteria that is radically different than Earth's. Maybe their decomposers are macro-decomposers, like red roots that cover everything and eat/decompose organic matter. Maybe there was a cataclysm killing all native life on Mars, except the Martians who used their technology and bioengineering (red roots?) to eek out a basic living.

In any case, the Martians were like a piece of steak left on the counter: with no immune system capable of handling bacteria, they basically just 'went bad'.

What I don't get is that they buried their machines hundreds/thousands/millions of years ago. *WHY* didn't they take over the planet then? Why not just land robotic death machines *with* pilots and try to colonize the planet when there is no human resistance what-so-ever. Did they bury them eons ago with the idea "just in case we want to invade and just in case an advanced species with anti-spacecraft weapons develops in the mean time"?!?