Austrian Cardinal on Evolution

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Austrian Cardinal on Evolution

Post by Surlethe »

Finding Design in Nature

By CHRISTOPH SCHÖNBORN
Published: July 7, 2005

Vienna

EVER since 1996, when Pope John Paul II said that evolution (a term he did not define) was "more than just a hypothesis," defenders of neo-Darwinian dogma have often invoked the supposed acceptance - or at least acquiescence - of the Roman Catholic Church when they defend their theory as somehow compatible with Christian faith.

But this is not true. The Catholic Church, while leaving to science many details about the history of life on earth, proclaims that by the light of reason the human intellect can readily and clearly discern purpose and design in the natural world, including the world of living things.

Evolution in the sense of common ancestry might be true, but evolution in the neo-Darwinian sense - an unguided, unplanned process of random variation and natural selection - is not. Any system of thought that denies or seeks to explain away the overwhelming evidence for design in biology is ideology, not science.

Consider the real teaching of our beloved John Paul. While his rather vague and unimportant 1996 letter about evolution is always and everywhere cited, we see no one discussing these comments from a 1985 general audience that represents his robust teaching on nature:

"All the observations concerning the development of life lead to a similar conclusion. The evolution of living beings, of which science seeks to determine the stages and to discern the mechanism, presents an internal finality which arouses admiration. This finality which directs beings in a direction for which they are not responsible or in charge, obliges one to suppose a Mind which is its inventor, its creator."

He went on: "To all these indications of the existence of God the Creator, some oppose the power of chance or of the proper mechanisms of matter. To speak of chance for a universe which presents such a complex organization in its elements and such marvelous finality in its life would be equivalent to giving up the search for an explanation of the world as it appears to us. In fact, this would be equivalent to admitting effects without a cause. It would be to abdicate human intelligence, which would thus refuse to think and to seek a solution for its problems."

Note that in this quotation the word "finality" is a philosophical term synonymous with final cause, purpose or design. In comments at another general audience a year later, John Paul concludes, "It is clear that the truth of faith about creation is radically opposed to the theories of materialistic philosophy. These view the cosmos as the result of an evolution of matter reducible to pure chance and necessity."

Naturally, the authoritative Catechism of the Catholic Church agrees: "Human intelligence is surely already capable of finding a response to the question of origins. The existence of God the Creator can be known with certainty through his works, by the light of human reason." It adds: "We believe that God created the world according to his wisdom. It is not the product of any necessity whatever, nor of blind fate or chance."

In an unfortunate new twist on this old controversy, neo-Darwinists recently have sought to portray our new pope, Benedict XVI, as a satisfied evolutionist. They have quoted a sentence about common ancestry from a 2004 document of the International Theological Commission, pointed out that Benedict was at the time head of the commission, and concluded that the Catholic Church has no problem with the notion of "evolution" as used by mainstream biologists - that is, synonymous with neo-Darwinism.

The commission's document, however, reaffirms the perennial teaching of the Catholic Church about the reality of design in nature. Commenting on the widespread abuse of John Paul's 1996 letter on evolution, the commission cautions that "the letter cannot be read as a blanket approbation of all theories of evolution, including those of a neo-Darwinian provenance which explicitly deny to divine providence any truly causal role in the development of life in the universe."

Furthermore, according to the commission, "An unguided evolutionary process - one that falls outside the bounds of divine providence - simply cannot exist."

Indeed, in the homily at his installation just a few weeks ago, Benedict proclaimed: "We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

Throughout history the church has defended the truths of faith given by Jesus Christ. But in the modern era, the Catholic Church is in the odd position of standing in firm defense of reason as well. In the 19th century, the First Vatican Council taught a world newly enthralled by the "death of God" that by the use of reason alone mankind could come to know the reality of the Uncaused Cause, the First Mover, the God of the philosophers.

Now at the beginning of the 21st century, faced with scientific claims like neo-Darwinism and the multiverse hypothesis in cosmology invented to avoid the overwhelming evidence for purpose and design found in modern science, the Catholic Church will again defend human reason by proclaiming that the immanent design evident in nature is real. Scientific theories that try to explain away the appearance of design as the result of "chance and necessity" are not scientific at all, but, as John Paul put it, an abdication of human intelligence.

Christoph Schönborn, the Roman Catholic cardinal archbishop of Vienna, was the lead editor of the official 1992 Catechism of the Catholic Church.
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One of my friends sent this to me, and these are my initial thoughts:
  • Appeals to an irrelevant authority (the Pope is not an authority on evolution)
  • Strawman attacks (he keeps attacking "random chance")
  • Unsupported contentions (to the point of question-begging) (where is the evidence of "purpose" and "design" in nature?)
  • Attacks on an ill-defined target (who and what exactly are these alleged "neo-Darwinists" he keeps referencing?)
  • Appeals to motive (last paragraph, "...invented to avoid the overwhelming evidence for purpose and design found in modern science...")
Am I missing anything?
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Post by Darth Wong »

Does he explain how he can produce specific predictions from the hypothesis of "design" and "purpose"?

I know what intelligent designs look like, and the biosystem doesn't qualify.
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Post by Lord of the Abyss »

Surlethe wrote:Attacks on an ill-defined target (who and what exactly are these alleged "neo-Darwinists" he keeps referencing?)
Modern evolutionary theory is often referred to as "neo-Darwinism". The rest of the article is eye-glazing nonsense.
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Post by Patrick Degan »

I suppose the next step will be a reconsideration of that whole suspect Heliocentric Theory...
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Post by Glimmervoid »

Patrick Degan wrote:I suppose the next step will be a reconsideration of that whole suspect Heliocentric Theory...
Shut your blasphemes mouth heathen scum. :D
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Post by Glimmervoid »

Also I don’t see why a omnipotent god( Not that I believe in a god) could not just set evolution on a path which is random but he knows the out come of. I don’t see how this idea is any harder that combining god’s omnipotence with the idea of free will.
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Post by bilateralrope »

Glimmervoid wrote:Also I don’t see why a omnipotent god( Not that I believe in a god) could not just set evolution on a path which is random but he knows the out come of. I don’t see how this idea is any harder that combining god’s omnipotence with the idea of free will.
Nor can I see anything against God making minor, undetectable 'corrections' as time goes on.
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Post by Solauren »

Or the idea that god makes changes via evolution 'to see what happens'.

I mean, come on, being 'all powerful' could get boring after a while
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Re: Austrian Cardinal on Evolution

Post by Hillary »

Evolution in the sense of common ancestry might be true, but evolution in the neo-Darwinian sense - an unguided, unplanned process of random variation and natural selection - is not. Any system of thought that denies or seeks to explain away the overwhelming evidence for design in biology is ideology, not science.
This bit makes me laugh. It's so obvious that there was an intelligent designer, that anyone thinking otherwise is trapped in their ideology. Yes, it is us who are mad :lol:

There's also his rather enormous (and unsupported) leap from "there must be an intelligent designer" to "it must be our Christian God".

All round bollocks from the Catholic Church, but entertaining nevertheless.
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Re: Austrian Cardinal on Evolution

Post by Hillary »


But in the modern era, the Catholic Church is in the odd position of standing in firm defense of reason as well.
My, that would be an odd position for the Catholic Church to be in. Fortunately, he seems to have managed to avoid that outcome in his article.
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Post by General Zod »

Glimmervoid wrote:Also I don’t see why a omnipotent god( Not that I believe in a god) could not just set evolution on a path which is random but he knows the out come of. I don’t see how this idea is any harder that combining god’s omnipotence with the idea of free will.
If he knows the outcome, then it's no longer random. Likewise free will isn't possible with omniscience, due to the fact that all choices and outcomes are already known, thus making the ability to choose trivial and meaningless, since you won't be able to choose any differently than what is already known to happen. Choosing differently indicates that the being in question -isn't- omniscient, as it would be impossible to surprise him.

It's really easy to see how they're contradictory ideas by applying simple logic to them.
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Post by zippy »

General Zod wrote:
Glimmervoid wrote:Also I don’t see why a omnipotent god( Not that I believe in a god) could not just set evolution on a path which is random but he knows the out come of. I don’t see how this idea is any harder that combining god’s omnipotence with the idea of free will.
If he knows the outcome, then it's no longer random. Likewise free will isn't possible with omniscience, due to the fact that all choices and outcomes are already known, thus making the ability to choose trivial and meaningless, since you won't be able to choose any differently than what is already known to happen. Choosing differently indicates that the being in question -isn't- omniscient, as it would be impossible to surprise him.

It's really easy to see how they're contradictory ideas by applying simple logic to them.
Alternatively, God being presumably outside the bounds of time and space, can see all possible outcomes whereas the one that actually comes to pass is dependant upon the choices made by the individual.
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Post by zippy »

Sorry, forgot to add that none of this means the cardinal isn't talking bollocks.
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Post by General Zod »

zippy wrote:
General Zod wrote:
Glimmervoid wrote:Also I don’t see why a omnipotent god( Not that I believe in a god) could not just set evolution on a path which is random but he knows the out come of. I don’t see how this idea is any harder that combining god’s omnipotence with the idea of free will.
If he knows the outcome, then it's no longer random. Likewise free will isn't possible with omniscience, due to the fact that all choices and outcomes are already known, thus making the ability to choose trivial and meaningless, since you won't be able to choose any differently than what is already known to happen. Choosing differently indicates that the being in question -isn't- omniscient, as it would be impossible to surprise him.

It's really easy to see how they're contradictory ideas by applying simple logic to them.
Alternatively, God being presumably outside the bounds of time and space, can see all possible outcomes whereas the one that actually comes to pass is dependant upon the choices made by the individual.
Except if he's outside time and space, he can't interact with the universe in any meaningful way, and may as well not exist. This's been covered dozens of times before elsewhere on the board by people better suited to do it than me though.
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Post by zippy »

General Zod wrote:
zippy wrote:
General Zod wrote: If he knows the outcome, then it's no longer random. Likewise free will isn't possible with omniscience, due to the fact that all choices and outcomes are already known, thus making the ability to choose trivial and meaningless, since you won't be able to choose any differently than what is already known to happen. Choosing differently indicates that the being in question -isn't- omniscient, as it would be impossible to surprise him.

It's really easy to see how they're contradictory ideas by applying simple logic to them.
Alternatively, God being presumably outside the bounds of time and space, can see all possible outcomes whereas the one that actually comes to pass is dependant upon the choices made by the individual.
Except if he's outside time and space, he can't interact with the universe in any meaningful way, and may as well not exist. This's been covered dozens of times before elsewhere on the board by people better suited to do it than me though.
I never said he existed, I was just speculating on how omniscience and free will can exist side by side. (please note that this is all semantics as far as I am concerned). I have tried to find the threads on why an omnipotent god cannot interfere with a closed space, so if anyone can point me to them I would be interested.
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Post by Firefox »

zippy wrote:Alternatively, God being presumably outside the bounds of time and space, can see all possible outcomes whereas the one that actually comes to pass is dependant upon the choices made by the individual.
In which case, God is not omniscient if he doesn't know what an individual will do in the future.
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Post by zippy »

Firefox wrote:
zippy wrote:Alternatively, God being presumably outside the bounds of time and space, can see all possible outcomes whereas the one that actually comes to pass is dependant upon the choices made by the individual.
In which case, God is not omniscient if he doesn't know what an individual will do in the future.
Of course he is. Not only does he know what that individual will do, but also what the other infinite versions of the individual in all the other parallel universes created by the decision will do too. Hey it's religion, who says it has to make sense.
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Post by Firefox »

Indeed, so free will doesn't exist because God knows what we're going to do.
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Post by Lord of the Abyss »

zippy wrote:Hey it's religion, who says it has to make sense.
I do ! :D

Another problem with omniscience is quantum uncertainty. If the position/velocity of particles is undetermined, God can't know them.
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Post by zippy »

Firefox - You get to choose which parallel universe you want to be in. Is that enough? :)

Lord of the Abyss - I assumed that just because we cannot measure both, doesn't mean an omniscient being cannot know them. Sure it violates various laws of quantum physics, but isn't that the paradox with omniscience.
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Post by Steven Snyder »

zippy wrote: Of course he is. Not only does he know what that individual will do, but also what the other infinite versions of the individual in all the other parallel universes created by the decision will do too.
If he is Omniscent it will know what decision a person WILL make, not just the ones presented to him. Otherwise he is not omniscent at all.
Hey it's religion, who says it has to make sense.
If your trying to rationalize it here, you had better at least make it logical.
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Post by Lord of the Abyss »

zippy wrote:Lord of the Abyss - I assumed that just because we cannot measure both, doesn't mean an omniscient being cannot know them. Sure it violates various laws of quantum physics, but isn't that the paradox with omniscience.
Thing is even an omniscient being can't see something that isn't there, and quantum uncertainty is a very important part of the physical world. In order to see everything with certainty, he would need to eliminate quantum uncertainty. Since I believe that would destroy the universe, that makes the matter sort of moot. Even if he recreated the universe it wouldn't be the same one, just a new version made from his memories - and if he looks again the same thing happens.
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Post by Firefox »

Firefox - You get to choose which parallel universe you want to be in. Is that enough?
Uh, no, because regardless of what universe I'm in, I make a choice that is already known. Every fucking move I make is predetermined, regardless of your insipid "parallel universe" bullshit.
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Post by Zero »

Firefox wrote:
Firefox - You get to choose which parallel universe you want to be in. Is that enough?
Uh, no, because regardless of what universe I'm in, I make a choice that is already known. Every fucking move I make is predetermined, regardless of your insipid "parallel universe" bullshit.
Perhaps a notion of free will has nothing to do with predetermination or absolutes or any such thing. Free will has nothing to do with the laws of physics... if you try and claim that, you're either a gear, or every action is random. Best way is to say that even if our personality is just composed of our experiences and how we learn to deal with them, and even though the physical body that we use to express our personality (as well as carry it... stupid brain...) only exists based on other shit in the past, every action we make is still made by us, determined by our own minds. That's my idea of free will. Of coure, when you bring in the notion of am omniscient god, for there to be free will he must either not care, or you must redefine omniscient to mean that he only knows what's happening right now.
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Post by Lord of the Abyss »

Zero132132 wrote:Perhaps a notion of free will has nothing to do with predetermination or absolutes or any such thing. Free will has nothing to do with the laws of physics... if you try and claim that, you're either a gear, or every action is random. Best way is to say that even if our personality is just composed of our experiences and how we learn to deal with them, and even though the physical body that we use to express our personality (as well as carry it... stupid brain...) only exists based on other shit in the past, every action we make is still made by us, determined by our own minds. That's my idea of free will. Of coure, when you bring in the notion of am omniscient god, for there to be free will he must either not care, or you must redefine omniscient to mean that he only knows what's happening right now.
We are physical beings constrained by physical law. Assuming free will even exists, the laws of physics apply to it.

My opinion ? People can't even seem to decide on a proper definition of free will, so it's hard to debate. I, personally doubt it exists; we think and talk in terms of free will because thinking and talking any other way is horribly awkward. Free will, I believe, is what we call our mostly subconscious decision making process; since we can't "see" how we make decisions, we call it free will.
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