Is Racism being Legislated away?

[Stravo]

A friend of mine (African American) brought up an interesting view over lunch today. She said that racism was not really gone or even very much lessened. She feels that racism has been legislated away making people feel bad about being racist and making overt racism wrong but that the actual feelings, the real root of racism was not gone out of people but simply driven more underground because it was no longer socially acceptable to be outwardly racist or for companies to be overtly racist.

Normally I'd have a different opinion, like things weren't nearly that bad. Things were changing, slowly yes but there was a definate change. However I had some bad experiences recently with people who let some attitudes come to the fore in some conversations where they forget that I'm one of those 'lazy spics' they ranted about over their beers.

So what do you think? Have we only made racism socially unacceptable but have not actually changed people's attitudes? Have we essentially only legislated racism away?

[Mr Bean]

So what do you think? Have we only made racism socially unacceptable but have not actually changed people's attitudes? Have we essentially only legislated racism away?

Racism has been reduced made unacceptable, but the die hard racists of the thirties fourties and fifities have not died yet.

They were raised at a time were the other races were looked down opon as a matter of course. Similary the entire Japanse-american were spit opon during WWII and those people indoctronated into that belief are still alive.

Minus children raised by racists or racisim victums, fewer and fewer children each year are indoctronated into that belief system.

Racism is however still strong and relativly unchanged, the Inner city gehetto's for one, the rural south and the deep mountain people of the west coast for example.

[Glocksman]

However I had some bad experiences recently with people who let some attitudes come to the fore in some conversations where they forget that I'm one of those 'lazy spics' they ranted about over their beers.

I usually encounter those attitudes among older (middle aged and up) people, but there are of course exceptions.
If I wanted to see my father have a heart attack, I'd just bring home a black chick and announce that we're getting married.

But to answer your question, I'd say that the attitudes you describe are slowly fading away.
As to whether racism would disappear entirely, I doubt it as people always need a scapegoat and who better to blame than the group that is different?

[Stravo]

However I had some bad experiences recently with people who let some attitudes come to the fore in some conversations where they forget that I'm one of those 'lazy spics' they ranted about over their beers.

I usually encounter those attitudes among older (middle aged and up) people, but there are of course exceptions.
If I wanted to see my father have a heart attack, I'd just bring home a black chick and announce that we're getting married.

But to answer your question, I'd say that the attitudes you describe are slowly fading away.
As to whether racism would disappear entirely, I doubt it as people always need a scapegoat and who better to blame than the group that is different?

My friend pointed to the crazy runaway bride chick and the woman who drowned her kids in the minivan. Each one immediately blamed a minority for the crime. She says it shows a certain mentality and thats coming from a generation closer to our age.

I added that they were both from the South and that bastion of reason would probably always be a hole in terms of being more open minded.

What bothers me is the recent spate of attitudes I've been exposed to from people I've respected or at leats thought weren't like that. Highly educated, New Yorkers, experienced in life and yet they hold to certain sterotypes - only of course amongst all white company and over some beers.

And don't get me started on the antisemitism that is rampant in some circles. Wow.

[Glocksman]

My friend pointed to the crazy runaway bride chick and the woman who drowned her kids in the minivan. Each one immediately blamed a minority for the crime. She says it shows a certain mentality and thats coming from a generation closer to our age.

It could show a cunning to exploit known stereotypes instead of innate racism. Only they can answer that question.

Highly educated, New Yorkers, experienced in life and yet they hold to certain sterotypes - only of course amongst all white company and over some beers.

In vino veritas, eh?
You could take it that they speak like that with you as an indication that they see you as a person instead of a 'lazy spic', as you put it.
That in itself is an improvement over the way it was 50 years ago.

Remember that old joke about the southern college that only integrated under court order than had to let a black guy play football?

It turned out that he was the best running back they'd ever had and loved him. Then they had a game up north with an integrated team, and their star player got flattened by an illegal tackle.

They started yelling at the officials 'Did you see what their nigger did to our colored guy'?

I'd say we've improved quite a bit, but we have quite a ways to go as well.

[Glocksman]

And don't get me started on the antisemitism that is rampant in some circles. Wow.

No doubt.
The whole IvP thing has made antisemitism acceptable, even fashionable, in a lot of quarters, or at least gives them cover.
And before anyone jumps in and bites my head off, I'm not saying that all critics of Israel (I'm one myself) are antisemites.

[McC]

I'm given to wonder exactly what you're defining as racism? Do you define it as believing one race to be inherently superior to another, or do you define it as (negatively) characterizing most people of a race by certain stereotypical traits? I'd say the latter is simply inherent in human thought processes. We love to stick things into categories. In a way, it's a survival mechanism.

Here's an example, using myself as potential fodder: I'm white and Caucasian (Irish and Scottish). During the summer, I wear a T-shirt and khaki shorts. If I see a dark-skinned (Black, Hispanic, whatever) person wearing baggy jeans, an oversized jersey, a bandana, and lots of "bling" walking towards me, I'm going to immediately characterize him as someone to be wary of. Of course, I'd feel the same encountering a white person wearing the same outfit, so perhaps that's not a great example.

Alternately, let's talk fast food. When I go to a fast food restaurant and encounter a Hispanic person (it's far rarer to encounter a non-Hispanic person), I instantly assume that I will have difficulty communicating with them and that they're not particularly bright. This goes for most minority (specifically Hispanic though) people in service-level jobs that I encounter. Is this racism, or simply a stereotype based on experience? No one has told me (in any serious capacity, anyway) to think less of Hispanics in the service industry -- it's an opinion I've formed on my own.

Alternately, though, if I encounter a Hispanic/Black/whatever person in a business suit that's well-groomed and so on, I don't think of them any differently than I'd think of anyone else in similar attire.

As I'm describing all of this, it's sounding to me more like classism than racism. In your particular example, Stravo, I suspect (though cannot know for certain) that your particular encounter with the person ranting about 'lazy spics' was referring to the same feeling I have when dealing with Hispanic service people. They tend to speak/understand English very poorly and do tend to be rather incompetent.

[Darth Wong]

I'm not sure what point this friend of yours is trying to make, Stravo. Is it true that racism is much less acceptable than it used to be? Yes. Is it true that it's still around? Yes. Does this mean that there's been no change in underlying attitudes whatsoever? That's rather doubtful. The fact that it's not gone does not mean it has not decreased.

PS. There was a time when virtually everyone felt that black people were sub-human, sort of like really intelligent pets. Nowadays this kind of attitude would be considered horrifying by most people, even many who are actually racists (such as my in-laws). The attitudes are changing, albeit slowly.

[Stravo]

I'm not sure what point this friend of yours is trying to make, Stravo. Is it true that racism is much less acceptable than it used to be? Yes. Is it true that it's still around? Yes. Does this mean that there's been no change in underlying attitudes whatsoever? That's rather doubtful. The fact that it's not gone does not mean it has not decreased.

Normally I would have been very adamant that things have changed but my recent experiences made me a little more muted in my response. She was more of the school of thought that people are as racist as they have ever been and all we've succeeded in doing is making it less socially acceptable but that some white guy will always look at an African American differently no matter what the law says.

I don't agree with this but like I said it was hard to be opposed to this attitude that nothing has changed in light of what happened.

[Surlethe]

She was more of the school of thought that people are as racist as they have ever been and all we've succeeded in doing is making it less socially acceptable but that some white guy will always look at an African American differently no matter what the law says.

Seems to me if we make it less and less socially acceptable, then eventually the white guy won't look at the African American differently: cultural evolution.

[Zoink]

some white guy will always look at an African American differently no matter what the law says.

Some guy will always try to murder someone no matter what the law says. However, we can still reach a point where murder is pretty uncommon, not tolerated in society, and not something you have to worry about all the time.

You may be affected by an unfortunate murder, but that's no reason to label all of society as no better than a bunch of cavemen.

I think the same can be said of racism. We may not be at that point yet, but I think there has been significant improvement.

[Zero]

I think that a lot of racist attitudes are propogated on TV. Most non-white characters fall into a stereotype.. they'll always talk a certain way, wear certain clothing, and typically the smarter character in a TV show will be smarter. The non-whites will typically be seen the same way, so we get racial stereotypes worked into our minds without ever realizing this.

Worse then this is the fact that people tend to try and become what they see on TV... ugh... I HATE 'BLING'!

[Joe]

I think a good experiment to test something like this would be to take random samples of immigrants versus natives. Talk to Africans who have moved to the U.S. within their lifetimes and don't have the expectations of racism that native-born blacks do, and see how the results would differ. Do the same thing with Hispanics. I've found that many members of minorities do have an unfortunate tendency to look for racism and find it even where there isn't any - which really isn't that unreasonable a thing for them to do, given the years of oppression. But it may make the racism problem appear worse than it actually is.

[Chmee]

Ignorance as a source of racism might be diminishing in some regions and some demographic groups. For me, racism is a quaint anachronism, since the distinguishing physical characteristics that we ascribe to 'race' are basically a paint job applied to homo sapiens .... but to me, saying one shade of homo sapiens is inherently better or worse than another is like saying a red Mercedes is inherently better than a black Mercedes ... I mean c'mon, they're both a fucking Mercedes.

Ignorance isn't the only source of racism, though. A few years ago I lived downhill from an elderly couple who were still pretty spry (they went deer hunting every year and they were in their late 70's). The husband sometimes made a reference to 'dirty Japs' or 'fucking Japs' that made his feelings toward the Japanese people pretty clear ... and this would seem unreasonable and unfounded until you talked to the guy long enough to find out that he was onboard the U.S.S. California when she took two torpedoes and a bomb strike during the Pearl Habor attack. Now his hatred of the Japanese as a people, as a race, may be out of place and even irrational in this day and age, but I can't exactly call it unfounded ... he hates the Japanese because they killed a bunch of his friends.

That kind of source for racism is going to exist as long as humans fight wars, so I don't see it vanishing any time soon.

[Edi]

However I had some bad experiences recently with people who let some attitudes come to the fore in some conversations where they forget that I'm one of those 'lazy spics' they ranted about over their beers.

Was this by any chance the incident you posted a thread about a couple of months back, or some more recent occurrence? Not that I need to know the details if you don't want to elaborate on it.

So what do you think? Have we only made racism socially unacceptable but have not actually changed people's attitudes? Have we essentially only legislated racism away?

It's certainly far less acceptable here than it used to be. Within certain subgroups, it's still alive and well, but with the huge (relatively) influx of foreigners in the past fifteen years, people have learned to be more tolerant. Used to be that when I was a small kid, black people were so rare here that we would stare at them when we saw them in the street, and I don't recall having seen many all told. Nowadays there is nothing special about it, there's a fairly large number of blacks (again, relatively speaking), and you trip over Asians of various origins everywhere. And it's only a good thing, there is still too much racism.

Not that there aren't valid criticisms of certain minority groups based on their behavior, but those would be logical complaints to be made of anyone who behaved in that manner. Mostly confined to Somalis and Gypsies here, that part.

Edi

[wolveraptor]

Racism as a byproduct of wars usually only occurs when all of the people you're fighting are of the same color. Take the current anti-terrorist war. True, most terrorists are Arabic, but innocent iraqi civillians are also Arabic, and they are definitely not enemies. This makes it tougher for soldiers to form a 1 dimensional picture of their enemies as a bunch of stinkin' A-rabs.

[Mr. T]

I'd say you are still going to meet racist people everywhere, although as has been said numerous times before on this board, there are varying degrees of it. I've noticed this too somewhat though, among some white friends (not all mind you) do seem to go on tangents about racial minorities, maybe forgetting I'm a racial minority in the process. Of course, also of note is racism isn't only prevalent in white people, friends I have of minorities can be quite racist towards other minorities as well.

[Darth Wong]

The only way to really solve racism is to have so much intermarriage that people are no longer sure which race they or anyone else belong to. Of course, you could still have nationalist, regionalist, and religious prejudices, so it's not as if you would suddenly have paradise on Earth.