Yuuzhan Vong in the Delta Quadrant

[Illuminatus Primus]

Splitting your entire fleet into tiny, bite-sized chunks of 3 or 4 ships and attacking every world the enemy holds is foolhardy. Only a complete moron would even conceive of such a plan.

How many Feddie systems will infiltrators and scouts determine have a significant fleet presence? The Vong have many thousands of ships. I'm only talking about a full strike across the Federation's main bases and fleet presence's. Move in, strike, spread damage and despair, fade out. Strike important systems, give defenses beating, seed moons with dovin basals, defend until orbit has decayed enough to cause the inevitable.

The Yuuzhan Vong take about a dozen worlds at the most in a single shot. They use overwhelming force to take the world, then strengthen their forces there. They do NOT split their forces up into easily dealt with bite-sized chunks.

All they must do is send a few dozen to a dozen or so most vital worlds for a devestating hit and fade described above.

A quote from time immemorial: "The best defence is a good offense." If the Yuuzhan Vong follow their tried-and-tested battle strategy, which is essentially similar to the German blitzkrieg, the Federation will be so hard-pressed to halt an invasion that they will have no resources left for a counterassault.

Precisely.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Phasers dont need to go through the singularities simply not get bent into them by the gravity, phaser can be an FTL weapon when fired at warp, I believe a tech manual (non canon but still) says they are encased in a subspace field thus they could be modded to always be contiained in the subsapce field and thus be ftl (or at least avoid the affect of gravity to a large extent).

And they'd know to do this? And this would affect baryons as asked by someone else?

I know the Vong dnot split up their fleet like that - again I was addressing another poster points.

The Yuuzhan Vong have launched multiple simultaneous attacks during the books, plus they've fought multiple-front during their invasion (core-ward corridor and Hutt space-ward corridor, etc).

Explain Parallax, I have actually seen it done but taking that as a singularity means that SF ships using technobabble can escape an event horrizon therefore showing over coming blackholes can be done (probably due to technobabble).

So you're saying all of these potential maybe if everything works out senarios will play out for the generally incompetant Federation as the Vong conduct a blitzkrieg-style hit across several systems, hitting long enough to secure basals to cause moon crashes (only a couple hours) and then bugging out and letting the Federation's heart get torn out?

[HemlockGrey]

Plus, the Vong just need one lucky broadside. Vong weapons ate through the shields and hulls of SW ships. God knows what they'll do to ST ships.

[Illuminatus Primus]

If their ships need integrity fields to help hold them together, large dovin basals could possibly take them apart at close range.

[Master of Ossus]

Master of Ossus: They had a few years (maybe 2) to study a freaky no humanoid (non solid in fact) life form and create a bio weapon.
The Vong are humanoid and would therefore take alot less in the R&D department, but then again you didnt really have a point did you MOO.

Bullshit, the CHISS made the bio-weapon in six months. Maybe you should read the books. They specifically state that the Chiss examined the genetic codes of all YV life forms that they had on record. They then crafted a virus designed to seek out that particular genetic code and terminate it. You are bullshitting, and not making any relevent points.

[Master of Ossus]

Illuminatus Primus: Yes but Fed ships have Combat FTL, ways to dodge the Vongs shields (IDF, Anti Gravity, transporters, Phasers, warp strafe and even simply mining (the uber bomb of doom comes to mind)).

They would actually attack the Vong and they have better meditech than the NR (or at least faster) they could use nano weapons although this wouldnt be as automatic as usua (since the 8472 thing didnt go down)l, the Feds would figure out Yammosk "speech" with one technobabble filled minute from any science officier etc etc, you forget the Vong were built (by the writters) to fight the NR the Empire would have beaten them with sheer military might and the Feds will out "tech" them, the NR were caught in the middle.

1. If a warp-strafe is possible, why didn't the Dominion forces use it against DS9?
2. The NR also has anti-gravity fields, but they don't help them penetrate YV shields. What makes you think that they would help SF?
3. What are you going to mine? The entire Galaxy? How will that be effective against the YV? It may slow them down, of course. It may cause them casualties, but eventually the YV will almost certainly bipass the mine field and attack lucrative targets. Further, the only known use of mines against YV targets was in Destiny's Way, and that was only effective against combat-damaged ships, and support ships. How is that going to stop the entire YV fleet?
4. You claim that faster meditech is going to make a difference in combat, but Dr. Bashir has repeatedly decided that it is more important in combat for him to use a phaser than to actually move around healing minor injuries. This demonstrates that combat-medicine presents no significant advantage to the Federation while it is actually in a combat zone, despite its admirable results and speed.
5. Nano-weapons are actually interesting, but I find it somewhat difficult to believe that they would adequately destroy a species whose primary means of attack is to sit in orbit and infect an atmosphere, destroying native life forms and altering the environment to make it more suitable for themselves.
6. Even with the Yamosks crippled (and I'm assuming that the UFP could do what you say), the NR would still need to outfight the YV. Now, the YV is inexperienced with such fighting, and the NR can take advantage of this, but SF would have more difficulty in doing so. They have weaker weapons, and fewer starships than the NR. This is partially offset by some of their advantages, but the industrial power of the YV will likely, eventually, win out.

[Master of Ossus]

The Vong have a few thousand ships and they are going to hit every Fed,Klingon,Cardy,Romulan and Dominion world at the same time??? yeah righ they are out numbered about 20 to 1 (if not 30 or 40) even just with the FKR they are out numbered 5 to 1.

And what were the YV numbers at the START of the invasion, as those are the relevent statistics, here. The YV lost half their fleet at Coruscant, along with large portions of it in the multitude of smaller conflicts elsewhere. The YV were maintaining a tremendous amount of territory, which led to a further bleed of starships--remember that they are known for heavily defending captured star-systems, showing that they dedicate substantial forces to this territory. Further, remember that in SW only capital ships are counted for the purposes of ship counts. In ST, they count everything from starfighters on up as full ships for their ship-counts. You are incorrect in stating that the YV would be outnumbered, though it is possible that they would be outmassed.

On the subspace issue - continue to lie about what I have said, you seem to enjoy it (have fun).

I'm not really sure what this is about, so I won't bother to respond to it.

Yorrik Coral is rock, Phaser love rock and Xwing blasts have hulled frigates before so I hardly think that Yorik COrall can take multi GT fire power and remain intact.

Darkling, you surprise me. Making arguments based wholly on the structure of a word. Yorik coral, regardless of its true nature, is an immensely dense substance that is capable of withstanding kiloton-scale weapons, even in small quantities. Thicker structures of yorik-coral have repelled turbolaser fire. Further, the idea that you can name something as being "rock", even though it is clearly grown in an organic process is highly interesting. Are you next going to remind me of how turbolasers are actually lasers due to the suffix attached?

The first attack will occur everywhere at the same time (thats a max of 3 ships per fed world), they will also get a map from nowhere (since the feds dont know they are coming, yet teh Vong know alot about the Feds somehow).

They had a map coming out of nowhere when they attacked the NR, too. Their ships were limited to propulsion by dovin-basals, for some time, before they developed their maps and were able to use their hyperdrives. Go back and re-read Vector Prime. It clearly demonstrates a gravimetrically-based propulsion system. Only later books show them as using hyperdrives to move through stars, though their expendible grutchins were able to access hyperspace in Vector Prime. Further, it is not the YV's MO to attack every world at once. I know that think everyone else is telling you that's what would happen, but I think there has been a miscommunication. I think that they are telling you that numerous outlying Federation worlds would be assaulted before the UFP could organize and mount a significant response. The YV, with that foothold, would begin to expand their territory outward while the UFP mustered its fleet. There would be a large battle--perhaps several slightly smaller battles--but in the end, the YV would come out ahead in the conflict.

[Master of Ossus]

Nem Yim is the only shaper not ham stringed by the vong religion (and theres no way to know if she would come to be that way in this situation).

Not true, haven't you read Destiny's Way? You profess to have read the books, earlier.

[Illuminatus Primus]

On the subspace issue - continue to lie about what I have said, you seem to enjoy it (have fun).

I'm not really sure what this is about, so I won't bother to respond to it.

The Darkling tried to claim that because a Tech Manual said that phasers are wrapped with subspace fields they could be made to go FTL and/or (?) through the shielding voids.

[Ender]

Master of Ossus: They had a few years (maybe 2) to study a freaky no humanoid (non solid in fact) life form and create a bio weapon.
The Vong are humanoid and would therefore take alot less in the R&D department, but then again you didnt really have a point did you MOO.

Bullshit, the CHISS made the bio-weapon in six months. Maybe you should read the books. They specifically state that the Chiss examined the genetic codes of all YV life forms that they had on record. They then crafted a virus designed to seek out that particular genetic code and terminate it. You are bullshitting, and not making any relevent points.

It took them 6 months to develop it after 4 years of research.

[Master of Ossus]

On the subspace issue - continue to lie about what I have said, you seem to enjoy it (have fun).

I'm not really sure what this is about, so I won't bother to respond to it.

The Darkling tried to claim that because a Tech Manual said that phasers are wrapped with subspace fields they could be made to go FTL and/or (?) through the shielding voids.

I don't believe that sounds like something that he would say, but I'll go back and see what happened.

[Master of Ossus]

I'm not really sure what this is about, so I won't bother to respond to it.

The Darkling tried to claim that because a Tech Manual said that phasers are wrapped with subspace fields they could be made to go FTL and/or (?) through the shielding voids.

I don't believe that sounds like something that he would say, but I'll go back and see what happened.

I'm stunned. Here's what he actually wrote:

Illuminatus Primus: I agree there, the huge FTL advantage will be pretty much the Vongs only plus but they will be worn down especially if transporters prove to be an effective weapon, theres also the theory that phasers are wrapped in a subspace field (because they can be fired at warp) if true then this may enable phasers to cut past the gravity bending effects of the black holes and the yorik coral will probably not resist phasers well.

Now, he did mention this as being merely a theory, but it just doesn't seem to fit with his behavior patterns, so far.

[TheDarkling]

Crayz9000: Things incased in subspace still have limited interaction with real space, the interaction wouldnt be as large as normal but still.

Illuminatus Primus: Again after a year the bulk of their fleet is 3000 ships, thats a fair guess at their fleet size at the beggining of the war.

On the Infiltrator issue - this gives the Feds time to learn of the Vong presence before they attack, as I showed in one of he previous threads on this subject this wouldnt be so easy (mainly due to Fed sensors, Transporters and he big ol' database of everyone).

Master of Ossus: You were talking about Section 31 - I explained about that situation, I wasnt talking about the Chiss - wasnt that clear how I said they were experimenting on a non humaniod race?

The Warf Strafe has been gone over and over and I have explained the DS9 incidents however n one is going to be convinced so lets just drop it.

When I said faster meditech I was refering to R&D on bioweapnos and ways to counter them etc, in ground combat it wont really matter because the Feds will be in a rather large amount of trouble (transporters will come in handy though).

As an aside however Bashir does his medical duties in a fight and doesnt charge around with a phaser.

The Vong dont always pull up in orbit and waste the planet, during the first 2 years of the invasion they occupy worlds and begin forming the population into slaves far more often then simlpy firing off bioweapons.

As for the Federation having fewer starships - this is true however the NR never deployed it ships, some systems only had 2 or 3 frigates fighting to delay the enemy, the Feds could raise fair more, not to mention planetary defense would come in handy (something which many of the Rim worlds didnt display).

Yorik Coral is as has been said (Ender correct me if im wrong here) calcium more or less and is often described as rock.
On skips even the low power shots (from XJ's) can get past the hulls in some cases and full power shots have gone in one side and come out the other at least once or twice.

The Feds dont include fighters in ship counts anymore than Nav deflectors can take high power lasers all day long (you have be asked to produce support for that argument before and have never produced).

The Vong will be outnumbered, again 1 year into the war putting together a fleet of 3000 ships forced them to withdraw support from their most important project (the worldship) aswell as many other positions - the Feds have more than 3000 ships, estimation for the FKR fleet clocks in at 20,000 ish not to mention planetary defense and possibly planetary defense fleets (not iron clad but implied during a TNG episode).

With regard to destinies way - no I havent read it im on star by star at the moment (I had to wait for them to release the paperback since no one had the hard cover) but during the first couple of years (as you have said - this is what is most relevant here) Nem Yim is the cheif heretic and I believe thats what Ender was coveying - that she would be needed to really pull out the stops to fight the transporter (or someone like her) not to mention the fact that I havent seen anyone explain how the Vong will adapt except that they will because they are the Borg.... sorry I meant Vong when I hear unsupported claims of uber adaption I usually think Borg .

[Illuminatus Primus]

Crayz9000: Things incased in subspace still have limited interaction with real space, the interaction wouldnt be as large as normal but still.

I've provided a reasonable guess on how the Vong would strike against the Federation. Explain how they'll figure this out in time to stop that attack in multiple locations in their territory, or show me why that guess on Vong attack strategy is unreasonable.

Illuminatus Primus: Again after a year the bulk of their fleet is 3000 ships, thats a fair guess at their fleet size at the beggining of the war.

Source, please?

On the Infiltrator issue - this gives the Feds time to learn of the Vong presence before they attack, as I showed in one of he previous threads on this subject this wouldnt be so easy (mainly due to Fed sensors, Transporters and he big ol' database of everyone).

The Vong won't talk, being able to analyze a dead Vong and his dead olglith cloaker isn't much help.

The Warf Strafe has been gone over and over and I have explained the DS9 incidents however n one is going to be convinced so lets just drop it.

When in doubt whine that you're not being listened to. Just like you do with Vong adaptability and I gave an example which you've (how suprisingly) ignored. Vornskrs to voxyn by fundamentalist shapers within a couple months.

When I said faster meditech I was refering to R&D on bioweapnos and ways to counter them etc, in ground combat it wont really matter because the Feds will be in a rather large amount of trouble (transporters will come in handy though).

I think when one refers to YV bioweapons, they're not talking about viruses to infect soldiers and whatnot, but those biosphere-eating pathogens.

The Vong dont always pull up in orbit and waste the planet, during the first 2 years of the invasion they occupy worlds and begin forming the population into slaves far more often then simlpy firing off bioweapons.

The Vong are not stupid fools. They formed their battle plan against the NR after years of infiltration. It is a plan solely suited toward the NR's demise. Apon viewing the FTL, firepower, and shielding weaknesses of the Federation, there's little reason they'll not strike several important planets first, drag moons into them, bug out and strike randomly until they can hold a planet with certainty. Keep in mind they wasted Sernpidal before capturing planets to make a shipyard.

As for the Federation having fewer starships - this is true however the NR never deployed it ships, some systems only had 2 or 3 frigates fighting to delay the enemy, the Feds could raise fair more, not to mention planetary defense would come in handy (something which many of the Rim worlds didnt display).

This is a blatent lie. We don't see the larger fleets constantly in battle so they don't exist? They've just been fighting a defensive war. The NR's fleet numbers in the thousands. The story is mostly about what the Jedi are up to. We're not seeing those big Strident-class's wading into the Vong formations.

Yorik Coral is as has been said (Ender correct me if im wrong here) calcium more or less and is often described as rock.
On skips even the low power shots (from XJ's) can get past the hulls in some cases and full power shots have gone in one side and come out the other at least once or twice.

And this means the coralskippers have the same kind or as thick yorik coral as cruisers? Which we know can take MTL hits and survive?

The Feds dont include fighters in ship counts anymore than Nav deflectors can take high power lasers all day long (you have be asked to produce support for that argument before and have never produced).

The Vong began the war with thousands of capital ships and built hundreds in the world wrecks. The NR meat grinder has been grinding down the Vong fleet for every sector it gained. It's depleted state by Destiny's Way is not accidental. They have more ships then the Federation.

The Vong will be outnumbered, again 1 year into the war putting together a fleet of 3000 ships forced them to withdraw support from their most important project (the worldship) aswell as many other positions - the Feds have more than 3000 ships, estimation for the FKR fleet clocks in at 20,000 ish not to mention planetary defense and possibly planetary defense fleets (not iron clad but implied during a TNG episode).

Not going to even respond.

With regard to destinies way - no I havent read it im on star by star at the moment (I had to wait for them to release the paperback since no one had the hard cover) but during the first couple of years (as you have said - this is what is most relevant here) Nem Yim is the cheif heretic and I believe thats what Ender was coveying - that she would be needed to really pull out the stops to fight the transporter (or someone like her) not to mention the fact that I havent seen anyone explain how the Vong will adapt except that they will because they are the Borg.... sorry I meant Vong when I hear unsupported claims of uber adaption I usually think Borg .

You're a dipshit. Shut up and listen. They captured Myrkr and within a couple months fundamentalist shapers realized the vornskrs utilization against Jedi even without understanding of the Force and shaped them into voxyn and began producing them by the hundreds. R&D, trial and error, production, and training facility, and deployment within six months of that planet's discovery. And they have no way of remotely understanding the Force. At least transporters are a staple of analyzable physics to them.

[meNNis]

dont forget that the YV have hyperspace capabilities

it would take way too long for the feddies or anyone else for that matter to mass their ships for a battle against the YV

[Master of Ossus]

Illuminatus Primus: Again after a year the bulk of their fleet is 3000 ships, thats a fair guess at their fleet size at the beggining of the war.

No it isn't. After a year of war, the YV already were defending a vast quantity of territory, which they were forced to defend. Note that, even with the casualties they take from that time until they attack Coruscant, they seem to GAIN forces in the interrim. That is likely the result of calling up the strategic reserves, which Destiny's Way describes as being totally depleted.

On the Infiltrator issue - this gives the Feds time to learn of the Vong presence before they attack, as I showed in one of he previous threads on this subject this wouldnt be so easy (mainly due to Fed sensors, Transporters and he big ol' database of everyone).

The UFP couldn't even detect the Founders on Earth itself. There were only six of them, if we can trust the changeling O'Brien, but even with all of those resources they still could not do it. YV ooglith masquers work in a totally different manner that SF is not prepared for. And do you know how easy it is to infiltrate a Federation installation? What if Garak had been a Cardassian spy? What if Quark had been a spy the whole time? NO ONE WOULD HAVE KNOWN. Odo reports thievery is a fairly common occurence, and rightfully points out several lapses of security on the Enterprise itself. The first-contact scenario protocalls that are used on UFP starships are a joke, and their incessent negotiations with others are laughable in terms of their ability to detect and bar infiltration. The YV wouldn't even need to pose as being humans or some other species in order to infiltrate the NR! They could just sit there and plant listening devices all throughout UFP ships. Further, the changeling Bashir was not detected until he actualy tried to destroy Bajor and the majority of the UFP fleet. YV operatives are known to kill members of the enemy crew and then assume their forms (ref. Vector Prime). If Bashir--one of the leading officers on DS9--went without being adequately scanned to determine that he was, in fact, a changeling, imagine how easy it would be for the YV!

Master of Ossus: You were talking about Section 31 - I explained about that situation, I wasnt talking about the Chiss - wasnt that clear how I said they were experimenting on a non humaniod race?

I was comparing the Chiss and the Section 31 bio-weapons team. After comparing the two, it is found that the weapon the Chiss came up with in a matter of months is superior in all respects to the weapon that Section 31 came up with in the space of years--despite having willing participants to experiment upon.

The Warf Strafe has been gone over and over and I have explained the DS9 incidents however n one is going to be convinced so lets just drop it.

Fine. I'd love to see your evidence for a possible warp strafe, but if you can't back up your claim then you can drop it without cost.

When I said faster meditech I was refering to R&D on bioweapnos and ways to counter them etc, in ground combat it wont really matter because the Feds will be in a rather large amount of trouble (transporters will come in handy though).

I see. I misunderstood. I'm curious as to the reasons why transporters have never been seen used in ST combat, before, but I digress. I'd like you to present evidence of your claim that the UFP has faster R&D capabilities on bioweapons and the like than the Chiss, Empire, or NR.

As an aside however Bashir does his medical duties in a fight and doesnt charge around with a phaser.

Oh, is THAt what he was doing during the Klingon invasion. I must have missed that scene.

The Vong dont always pull up in orbit and waste the planet, during the first 2 years of the invasion they occupy worlds and begin forming the population into slaves far more often then simlpy firing off bioweapons.

True, but they only engage populations that are incapable of mounting potentially dangerous resistance. In other words, they enslave when the net-gain of doing so is greater than the costs associated with a ground-campaign. Bio-weapons are used on potentially dangerous targets, or worlds that do not have populations to enslave.

As for the Federation having fewer starships - this is true however the NR never deployed it ships, some systems only had 2 or 3 frigates fighting to delay the enemy, the Feds could raise fair more, not to mention planetary defense would come in handy (something which many of the Rim worlds didnt display).

Okay, so how could SF raise more ships to defend each world than the NR, even though they are hampered by slower FTL travel? The NR's main fleets were not engaging the YV, although the YV were attempting to engage the NR's main fleets. Similarly, even if SF tried to engage the YV's fleets with their largest fleets, the YV would have the choice of whether or not to attack. Their quicker FTL travel would allow them to attack or flee, with the UFP being unable to respond quickly enough with warp-drives to stop them from doing so and engage them.

Yorik Coral is as has been said (Ender correct me if im wrong here) calcium more or less and is often described as rock.
On skips even the low power shots (from XJ's) can get past the hulls in some cases and full power shots have gone in one side and come out the other at least once or twice.

Hmmm.... Ender, what was your source on the composition of Yorik Coral? If you don't have a quote, I'll settle for paraphrasing and a book title, but I've always envisioned Yorik Coral as looking non-calciferous.

Darkling, the fact that XJ shots can get through a coral-skipper does not have much bearing on the strength of Yorik Coral. We don't know how thick the hull of such ships are. We also know that Yorik Coral on much larger ships has withstood MTL, and possibly even HTL fire for limited amounts of time, and we can guestimate the thickness of that coral (from the thickness of the ship that Jaina cuts through in SbS) as being two meters for a frigate-sized ship. That's a hell of a lot of material, but it's standing up to gigatons of energy.

The Feds dont include fighters in ship counts anymore than Nav deflectors can take high power lasers all day long (you have be asked to produce support for that argument before and have never produced).

Ummm... yes they do. They muster a 600 ship fleet WITH FIGHTERS to retake DS9. They count Jem H'adar fighters among the 1200 they think opposed them. This actually makes sense, from their point of view, because a JH bug is enough to fight a Centaur-class frigate and have a reasonable chance of surviving, and a Centaur is a small capital ship, instead of a fighter.

The Vong will be outnumbered, again 1 year into the war putting together a fleet of 3000 ships forced them to withdraw support from their most important project (the worldship) as well as many other positions - the Feds have more than 3000 ships, estimation for the FKR fleet clocks in at 20,000 ish not to mention planetary defense and possibly planetary defense fleets (not iron clad but implied during a TNG episode).

Hello, Unsubstantiated Claim, we meet again! Darkling, do you realize that the 3000 ships a year into the war with the NR is totally non-applicable to the UFP unless you can demonstrate that the war would last more than a year (dubious, as the YV were able to hold substantial territory with their forces--demonstrating a spectacular initial strength), and that the UFP could do as much damage to the YV as the NR did? You have failed to do either. Because of the nature of the claim (that they would be outnumbered) you must then demonstrate that the UFP would be able to do this without taking so many casualties that their sum-total dropped below the 3000 YV capital ships.

With regard to destinies way - no I havent read it im on star by star at the moment (I had to wait for them to release the paperback since no one had the hard cover) but during the first couple of years (as you have said - this is what is most relevant here) Nem Yim is the cheif heretic and I believe thats what Ender was coveying - that she would be needed to really pull out the stops to fight the transporter (or someone like her) not to mention the fact that I havent seen anyone explain how the Vong will adapt except that they will because they are the Borg.... sorry I meant Vong when I hear unsupported claims of uber adaption I usually think Borg .

Why would the Vong need to adapt? They've conquered tracts of territory that dwarf the size of the UFP, and had better technology, to boot. Even if we just use the Core Worlds, where the NR actually began using its main fleet to engage the YV, they've still conquered more than 8000 lightyears worth of space, or about 3 SW SECTORS. They did so virtually without adaptation. The idea that they would need to adapt to a less developed and smaller organization is somewhat difficult to grasp.

[TheDarkling]

Illuminatus Primus: Again warping a creature is the Vong forte figuring out what the hell is happening when ships start exploding for no noticable reason isnt going to get them off to a good start with the Feds.

Once they learn whats happening they need to learn how, without any understanding of transporter tech that shouild be interesting.

Next they must come up with a way to block transporters (if they can do it that is given the nature of their tech) and finally implement it fleet wide (possibly having to grow an entire new fleet depending upon the nature of the upgrade).

MOO: 1 Year into the war they had to leave themselve dangerously open to attack (Nom Anor basically says this) because whipping up that 3000 ship fleet strecthed them a huge amount - Im not questioning the vongs shipbuilding rates Im just pointing out that when they show up their fleet isnt that big (before they get to the core any Vong battle we view (and these are the major battles) results in little to no Vong ship loss - often because the NR military forgets to show up.

Founders actually become what they shift into however the Vong changes seem to only be skin deep ( ) and a good old tricorder should surfice to scan past it, on the Bashir issue - he already exists in Federation databanks but someone showing up out of nowhere is going to raise some questions (and some scans).

You say the CHiss bioweapon is by far the best yet dont say why - S 31 were dealing with a totally different lifeform the CHiss were dealing with just another set of humanoids.

You have seen my evidence (and many others) for warp strafing and denied it because it wasnt put into use against DS9 which was explained, however lets not hijack the thread (start one on the subject if you like).

The Federation seems far more medically capable than the NR (Feds come accross new disease all the time etc etc - this has also been discussed before).

Yes lets take one incident of Bashir using a phaser (probably on his way to get wounded) and say that this proves hes always gung ho (and by extention every other doctor) however since this entire line of reasoningwas created by you misunderstanding lets drop thsi aswell shall we (you may notice im getting bored with the repertition).

I didnt say SF could raise more ships to protect each world than the NR (although if they magaed to get about 3 ships to each world it would match the NR fleet projection to the rim) but the Vong cant attack major systems which will be protected by fleets and defenses and taking smaller colonies only works if they can protect them - if they run like you suggest they arent going to do more than take out minor colonies for no benefit (plus all that running is going to hurt morale).

On the Yorik Coral issue - show me the quotes with Yorik coral taking MTL blasts (full power ones) and not being destroyed (if a remember Corran Horn cuts into a corvette with his light saber showing that those hulls cant be that resistant (and not as resistant as the body armor infact).

Again Im simply showing YV fleet numbers < FKR fleet numbers so they will be outnumbered, of course they can use their FTL to pick and choose battles but the Vong cant and wont run from every enagagement.

Why would the Vong need to adapt - no reason they always deal with transporters , the first the Vong do in Vector prime is adapt to X-Wings (you would have thought Nom Anor would have gotten them intel but never mind) and then they adapt again to stutter fire when the NR begins to use that, the Feds who use tech that bares little resembalance to their own are going to require more adaption.

The YV main plus points here are A) FTL allows them to pick battles B) They may have a home base in the DQ (something that they didnt have against the NR but they were kind enough to give them the rim for cheap anyway).
If the setup was exactly the same as it was in SW then the YV would be in a bad way howevr the possible DQ base does give them some breathing room in this setup.


The Feds could always use bombs with large areas of effect, like was used by the Jedi strike team in SbS - it had a 1 KM blast zone, the Feds had a similiar weapon with an 800 km blast radius so simply split that up into smaller 1 km effect warheads (im sure you could get a good few from the same amount of material) and use them, the Feds are used to coming up against the unknown and thinking on their fight, the NR arent and it was this plus the senate that did alot of damage to the NR.

P.S on the subject of transport usage in combat - used by the dominion and it was also used by the Feds against the Borg, however both fell out of use since the enemy counted it (and other enemies already have counts - shields) without shields it would seem like a good idea to use them against the Vong.

[Master of Ossus]

MOO: 1 Year into the war they had to leave themselve dangerously open to attack (Nom Anor basically says this) because whipping up that 3000 ship fleet strecthed them a huge amount - Im not questioning the vongs shipbuilding rates Im just pointing out that when they show up their fleet isnt that big (before they get to the core any Vong battle we view (and these are the major battles) results in little to no Vong ship loss - often because the NR military forgets to show up.

Okay, and the proper response to an attack by a mysterious unknown race (as established during our lengthy correspondence on the Species-8472 debate) is to.... retreat with everything and attempt to develop intelligence. In other words, if SF operates in a manner that you proposed in another debate as being ideal, they are screwed because they will not take advantage of the YV overextending themselves. In the meantime, the YV will begin securing systems and constructing ships and converting slaves. The YV will become stronger while the UFP waits for intelligence. This is (get this) exactly what the NR did, and why it is losing the war (at least until Destiny's Way).

Founders actually become what they shift into however the Vong changes seem to only be skin deep ( ) and a good old tricorder should surfice to scan past it, on the Bashir issue - he already exists in Federation databanks but someone showing up out of nowhere is going to raise some questions (and some scans).

It hasn't raised many scans in the past, but SF medical technology is ludicrously poor in determining the true nature of things like this. Even if they detected the YV ooglith masquer, they would almost certainly conclude that it was some form of clothing. The YV don't NEED to masquerade as anything else in order to infiltrate the UFP. That is the whole point of this line of reasoning. The UFP has repeatedly welcomed strangers for no reason, whatsoever, even defending them against others who were suspicious of their motives. If we can extrapolate this trend as continuing, then the YV would have operatives very quickly in many different areas.

You say the CHiss bioweapon is by far the best yet dont say why - S 31 were dealing with a totally different lifeform the CHiss were dealing with just another set of humanoids.

If the only measure of how good a bio-weapon is is whether or not the target species is similar to the one that created it you're (get this) MORE screwed than you were before. The Section 31 anti-Founder bioweapon operated on ONE form of life: FOUNDERS. The Chiss bio-weapon, created in less time, kills ALL YUUZHAN VONG LIFE. That includes everything from dovin-basals to amphistaffs to Yorik-Coral to foodstuffs to worldships. EVERYTHING is killed by it. It requires less time than the anti-founder virus, is aerosal-transmitted, and one hundred percent lethal. All of those are either the same or better than the Section 31 virus. CLEARLY the Chiss weapon is vastly superior to the one that Section 31 cooked up. Clearly you are incorrect in all of your statements that Section 31 would be able to respond to the YV threat better than the SW galaxy did.

You have seen my evidence (and many others) for warp strafing and denied it because it wasnt put into use against DS9 which was explained, however lets not hijack the thread (start one on the subject if you like).

Fine.

The Federation seems far more medically capable than the NR (Feds come accross new disease all the time etc etc - this has also been discussed before).

Too bad it's not.

Yes lets take one incident of Bashir using a phaser (probably on his way to get wounded) and say that this proves hes always gung ho (and by extention every other doctor) however since this entire line of reasoningwas created by you misunderstanding lets drop thsi aswell shall we (you may notice im getting bored with the repertition).

Fine, it's dropped.

I didnt say SF could raise more ships to protect each world than the NR (although if they magaed to get about 3 ships to each world it would match the NR fleet projection to the rim) but the Vong cant attack major systems which will be protected by fleets and defenses and taking smaller colonies only works if they can protect them - if they run like you suggest they arent going to do more than take out minor colonies for no benefit (plus all that running is going to hurt morale).

Okay, but guess what--that's exactly what the NR did. That's exactly why they were losing the war for so long. They did not protect their outer-rim territories, concentrating their forces to protect the Core Worlds. In your scenario, the YV would just dance around the Core before finally delivering the knock-out blow--just like they did to the NR. Besides, you are missing a fundamental part of the YV--worlds that are important to their enemies are not necessarily important worlds to the YV. The YV target important enemy worlds because they are important to the enemy, but they gain resources by attacking worthless worlds and then turning them into suitable habitats for the YV to grow resources, ships, weapons, and warriors.

On the Yorik Coral issue - show me the quotes with Yorik coral taking MTL blasts (full power ones) and not being destroyed (if a remember Corran Horn cuts into a corvette with his light saber showing that those hulls cant be that resistant (and not as resistant as the body armor infact).

I'll go back and look up some quotes. You don't have to respond to this line until I come up with some.

Again Im simply showing YV fleet numbers < FKR fleet numbers so they will be outnumbered, of course they can use their FTL to pick and choose battles but the Vong cant and wont run from every enagagement.

You're right. They'll stay and fight when it suits them, and they'll almost certainly win because they can pick and choose battles while their ST opponents won't have that luxory.

Why would the Vong need to adapt - no reason they always deal with transporters , the first the Vong do in Vector prime is adapt to X-Wings (you would have thought Nom Anor would have gotten them intel but never mind) and then they adapt again to stutter fire when the NR begins to use that, the Feds who use tech that bares little resembalance to their own are going to require more adaption.

They do adapt to the NR because the NR is large enough and powerful enough to pose a threat to their forces. The puny UFP would not be a problem for them.

The YV main plus points here are A) FTL allows them to pick battles B) They may have a home base in the DQ (something that they didnt have against the NR but they were kind enough to give them the rim for cheap anyway).
If the setup was exactly the same as it was in SW then the YV would be in a bad way howevr the possible DQ base does give them some breathing room in this setup.

And the UFP is going to win exactly how?

The Feds could always use bombs with large areas of effect, like was used by the Jedi strike team in SbS - it had a 1 KM blast zone, the Feds had a similiar weapon with an 800 km blast radius so simply split that up into smaller 1 km effect warheads (im sure you could get a good few from the same amount of material) and use them, the Feds are used to coming up against the unknown and thinking on their fight, the NR arent and it was this plus the senate that did alot of damage to the NR.

The Federation weapon was never shown to work, nor was it ever spoken of in a manner that made any sort of sense. Further, weapons are not always scalable in the manner that you describe. You cannot make a nuclear weapon explode with the force of 50 pounds of TNT. There are theoretical minimums for the blast.

P.S on the subject of transport usage in combat - used by the dominion and it was also used by the Feds against the Borg, however both fell out of use since the enemy counted it (and other enemies already have counts - shields) without shields it would seem like a good idea to use them against the Vong.

True, but the UFP's ability to target their transporters accurately during combat is suspect. Moreover, many YV ship carry many warriors for the apparent purpose of repelling such boarding actions. The use of transporters in combat also precludes the use of shields in combat.

[TheDarkling]

You retreat into your own borders you dont retreat all the way back to earth (or coruscant), my point is any Vong holdings in FKR areas are goign to have to be defended by the Vong meaning they loose ships and attacks on defend planets are als going to loose them ships.

You think the Feds are simply going to allow the Vong to walk about without asking where they have come from or how they can open up trade/diplomacy - SF Intel will spring into action, SF medical will have to do some scans and S 31 will begin its work - you are stretching here by a large margin.

The Section 31 bioweapon was meant to have a long incubation time because it had to last long enough for Odo to comune with the founders - lets not forget that the Dominion are good at bioweapon tech and this defeated them.

The Chiss weapon was brute force the section 31 required skill, frankly a kill everything upon contact weapon would be no problem (biogenic weapons destroy all life by breaking down all genetic structures- thats the sort of brute force weapon the chiss created(although with a little more finess).

SF will counter any Vong held position in their midst and defend important worlds, the NR never counted the Vongs drive toward Coruscant, if they had the Vong would have be trashed.

You keep saying "NR, BIG, STRONG, UGH" but you are ignoring the fatal flaws raised about the NR and how the Feds actually have advantages over them (used to dealing with technobabble (biotech isnt new to them), actual military capable of waging war, little internal division to aid the Vong, transporters etc etc).
The FKR (and the dominion) are threats because they adapt to new tech much quicker due to experience, it took the NR 2 years to figure out Yammosk speech right? the Feds would have picked it up in the first encounter and figured out patterns by the third or forth (I remember they worked out the language of a crystal lifeform, they figured out what 2d lifeforms were upto and so on - the Feds are better equiped to deal with the unknown but in the first few books you can see the NR had a hrd time geting a handle on exactly what they were up against).

The Federation 800 kn bomb did work and its job was done (although again who the hell cares O'Brien said hat was the range and without evidence pointing against it we take his world for it, or being able to reduce th yeild the bomb is made of 90 isotons of technobabble X while you may not be able to reduce it all the way but its should be somewhat doable).

The UFP cant hit targets with its transporter - proof please.

As for shields - would they be of any use anyway given that A)The Fed ships still out of Vong range and B) Shields arent going to stop a GT level blast anyway (although they would prevent Magma missiles and Plasma balls from skips (which an area effect torp or two should deal with (something else the NR tried and which worked)).

[Darth Yoshi]

How did this thread get into the UFP? The scenario states that the Vong land in the Delta Quadrant, and if they've gotten into the Alpha Quadrant, then they've got way more resources than the UFP, meaning the UFP is in a situation similar to the fight against the Empire.

[Illuminatus Primus]

You retreat into your own borders you dont retreat all the way back to earth (or coruscant), my point is any Vong holdings in FKR areas are goign to have to be defended by the Vong meaning they loose ships and attacks on defend planets are als going to loose them ships.

Retardation. They'll conclude that Federation is primitive and they're not going to be doing man-to-man tricoder scans. They'll pop in with a good size fleet, land dovin basals on the moon, and crash it into Earth. Instant choas. Better yet, split force and pull Deimos and Phobos into the Mars yards.

You think the Feds are simply going to allow the Vong to walk about without asking where they have come from or how they can open up trade/diplomacy - SF Intel will spring into action, SF medical will have to do some scans and S 31 will begin its work - you are stretching here by a large margin.

The Federation doesn't have the oppurtunity. They'll strike across the three puny sectors worth of Feddie territory with hyperspace in more then one location because their agents will reveal amazing shielding and firepower and FTL inadequacies. As well as smaller and fewer ships and longer build time.

The Section 31 bioweapon was meant to have a long incubation time because it had to last long enough for Odo to comune with the founders - lets not forget that the Dominion are good at bioweapon tech and this defeated them.

The Vong (and the NR) are thousands of years ahead of them in biotech, especially the Vong. And the NR's weapon wouldn't neccessarily work either.

The Chiss weapon was brute force the section 31 required skill, frankly a kill everything upon contact weapon would be no problem (biogenic weapons destroy all life by breaking down all genetic structures- thats the sort of brute force weapon the chiss created(although with a little more finess).

I'm sick of your shit. It doesn't break down on contact. It can kill a whole species, who the fuck gives a shit how as long as it still is capable of getting the job done.

SF will counter any Vong held position in their midst and defend important worlds, the NR never counted the Vongs drive toward Coruscant, if they had the Vong would have be trashed.

The Vong are not going to spend months crawling across two pathetic sectors of destroyer-max worth ships.

You keep saying "NR, BIG, STRONG, UGH" but you are ignoring the fatal flaws raised about the NR and how the Feds actually have advantages over them (used to dealing with technobabble (biotech isnt new to them), actual military capable of waging war, little internal division to aid the Vong, transporters etc etc).

"Used to dealing with technobabble" is not a literal strategic advantage dipshit. It's a derisive casual reference often made toward the Federation. You're going to have to make actual claims rather then appeal to our disgust with the Federation.

Shut up about the military being incapable of waging war. They held off advances at Yag'dhul, struck at Helska, defeated the Vong fleet at Ithor (though they did lose the planet), and destroyed massive amounts of Vong fleet resources at Coruscant, wrecked a shipyard at Sernpidal, destroyed a whole domain at Blackmoon, and fought at Hapes.

You seem to lack understanding that we refer to high-end capital ships in SW fleet numbers. 25,000 destroyers at the Empire's height, several thousand comparable vessels in the hands of the New Republic in the NJO (which is somewhat of an unfair perspective because a lot of the fleets are local defense fleets, and a lot of the central warfleet was recalled by corrupt Senators). The NR had several thousand ships. The YV also had several thousand ships.

Each of those significant capital ships in tonnage, firepower, and troop complement is worth hundreds of the largest Federation ships. Counting them as equal is like saying 1000 assualt frigate fleet would be equivalent to 1000 ISD fleet. You're being retarded.

The FKR (and the dominion) are threats because they adapt to new tech much quicker due to experience, it took the NR 2 years to figure out Yammosk speech right? the Feds would have picked it up in the first encounter and figured out patterns by the third or forth (I remember they worked out the language of a crystal lifeform, they figured out what 2d lifeforms were upto and so on - the Feds are better equiped to deal with the unknown but in the first few books you can see the NR had a hrd time geting a handle on exactly what they were up against).

Why would they strike the Dominion first? They made deals and manipulated the NR's politics to paralyze them, and they're a single political unit. They'll easily persuade the other powers to let the Federation die. How would the Federation have understood Yammosk speech so quickly?

Do you watch ST? Dealing with the unknown in TNG period means talk, talk, talk, technobabble, talk. The Yuuzhan Vong had the intel and preparation advantage (40 years of watching, preparing, and waiting), and you're suprised?

The Federation 800 kn bomb did work and its job was done (although again who the hell cares O'Brien said hat was the range and without evidence pointing against it we take his world for it, or being able to reduce th yeild the bomb is made of 90 isotons of technobabble X while you may not be able to reduce it all the way but its should be somewhat doable).

The YV voids can take multi-hundred-gigaton anti-cap-ship torpedoes.

The UFP cant hit targets with its transporter - proof please.

Proof? The transporters are finicky around fucking ore and fucking little energy fields of technobabble Y. You don't think beaming near black hole singularities or exotic organic armor capable of absorbing MTL blasts might not screw it up?

As for shields - would they be of any use anyway given that A)The Fed ships still out of Vong range and

They fire projectile missiles at .9 C.

Plasma bursts move even further....and powerful dovin basals pull travels AT C.

Yuuzhan Vong interdictors can knock humans unconscious with gravitational pulses.

B) Shields arent going to stop a GT level blast anyway (although they would prevent Magma missiles and Plasma balls from skips (which an area effect torp or two should deal with (something else the NR tried and which worked)).

Plasma bursts from YV capships will rape the Feds. They take down multi-teraton SD shields, they'll kill the Federation. Might be a tad more even then the Empire, but not by much.

Source please. You've raped and disfigured the NJO to the point where dental records were required; I don't trust your claims anymore.

[Illuminatus Primus]

How did this thread get into the UFP? The scenario states that the Vong land in the Delta Quadrant, and if they've gotten into the Alpha Quadrant, then they've got way more resources than the UFP, meaning the UFP is in a situation similar to the fight against the Empire.

The DQ senario is retarded. The YV don't just sail into a galaxy, they prepped and gathered intel on the GFFA since right after TPM.

They'll study for fifty years the Milky Way. They'll probably land in the galactic halo or the edge of the galaxy near the AQ and build up some extra fleet and bases then strike deep into the weakest, most democratic, and most impotent group of infadels: the Federation.

Romulan Star Empire, Klingon Empire, Dominion: Yuuzhan Vong respected the Galactic Empire, even though they were infadels according to Nom Anor in Traitor. They're also practical and will strike in the most impotent of meaningful threats.

Borg: The YV are smart enough to build a base of operations before provoking an attack with the nigh-suicidal Borg. The Borg might be abominable, but the Yuuzhan Vong warrior has patience. Which included half a century of waiting to take the GFFA.

[TheDarkling]

Illuminatus Primus: I was going to rebut however in you first line you again mention the moon idea if you think the people of earth are going to sit there and allow the moon to fall on them you are an idiot of the highest order - I cant be bothered with you anymore and wont be reading your posts, MOO while somewhat combative you are actually capable of reason and I will therefore respond to your posts, if he comes up with a great point (hell even a valid point would do) please repeat it in your posts so I will actually see it I however cant be bother with the utter dreck he is spouting, Im sorry to inflict such horror upon you but I cant stand Vong fanboys anymore than I could stand a borg fanboy.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Illuminatus Primus: I was going to rebut however in you first line you again mention the moon idea if you think the people of earth are going to sit there and allow the moon to fall on them you are an idiot of the highest order

DID YOU LISTEN TO HOW I SAID THE FLEET WOULD STICK AROUND TO DEFEND UNTIL THE MOON'S ORBIT WILL DECAY BEYOND REPAIR?!?!

- I cant be bothered with you anymore and wont be reading your posts, MOO while somewhat combative you are actually capable of reason and I will therefore respond to your posts, if he comes up with a great point (hell even a valid point would do)

Explain what I've said that isn't valid and maybe I'll care. You're being a worm complaining because your neat little deus ex machina solutions won't work.

"Better understanding of technobabble"-- that's your idea of a real, literal legitimate strategic advantage? Is anyone else astounded by this bullshit?

Im sorry to inflict such horror upon you but I cant stand Vong fanboys anymore than I could stand a borg fanboy.

Notice the absence of any real argument about why the UFP will defeat the Vong in this whole post....coincidence? Couldn't be.

I've provided values, comparisons, numbers, velocity of projectiles, likely tactics, analysis of previous Vong behaviors....what else do you want me to do?!

[Master of Ossus]

You retreat into your own borders you dont retreat all the way back to earth (or coruscant), my point is any Vong holdings in FKR areas are goign to have to be defended by the Vong meaning they loose ships and attacks on defend planets are als going to loose them ships.

And this is different from what the NR did how? The point is that the YV had already lost those ships in the defense of their territory when they invaded the NR. The difference here is that the UFP and its puny friends have much less territory, and would not be as resource-intensive to invade.

You think the Feds are simply going to allow the Vong to walk about without asking where they have come from or how they can open up trade/diplomacy - SF Intel will spring into action, SF medical will have to do some scans and S 31 will begin its work - you are stretching here by a large margin.

That's pretty much what they do. If you've ever seen their first-contact episodes, they just kind of ask where the person is from and what he's doing. They usually don't check, unless given another reason to be suspicious. SF medical probably will do scans, but what the hell are they going to do with those scans? They have no idea what they're looking for, and nothing to compare them to. Section 31 will probably begin an investigation, but what will that amount to? Nothing. Section 31 has no way of determining who the YV actually are, or where they came from. There is no where to begin investigating.

The Section 31 bioweapon was meant to have a long incubation time because it had to last long enough for Odo to comune with the founders - lets not forget that the Dominion are good at bioweapon tech and this defeated them.

Psssh. The Dominion, with all of their resources dedicated to curing the virus, couldn't do it. Dr. Bashir, by HIMSELF, was able to come up with a cure. The Dominion is nowhere near as skilled at bioweaponry as the UFP is. Besides, the only reason that the Section 31 virus needed such a long incubation time was because the UFP was too damn primitive to make the weapon an aerosol agent, and to make it affect the JH and the Vorta, as well. If they could do that, they would never have needed such a long incubation time. The Chiss weapon was made in less time, was more deadly, and was MUCH more effective, destroying a much wider variety of organisms.

The Chiss weapon was brute force the section 31 required skill, frankly a kill everything upon contact weapon would be no problem (biogenic weapons destroy all life by breaking down all genetic structures- thats the sort of brute force weapon the chiss created(although with a little more finess).

Oh, okay, so now you change the standard. Now the Chiss weapon must be primitive because it is so deadly. Besides, you are bullshitting when you claim that bioweapons kill all life. Does smallpox kill anything except for humans? And further, the Chiss bioweapon doesn't kill everything--it SELECTIVELY targets the YV. Earlier you claimed that the way to measure how effective a bioweapon is is to measure its ability to kill a strange organism. After I demonstrated that the Chiss weapon is more effective, in this manner, than the Section 31 virus, you suddenly changed the standard. Now it has to kill FEWER things in order to be effective. Make up your mind, and take a consistent position.

SF will counter any Vong held position in their midst and defend important worlds, the NR never counted the Vongs drive toward Coruscant, if they had the Vong would have be trashed.

Hello, unsubstantiated claim, do you realize that Darkling is downright lying when he says this? The NR had been fortifying Coruscant for years. They had fleets in orbit around the planet, and they had all of its traditional planetary defenses--bolstered by a minefield. They still lost. You are now lying.

You keep saying "NR, BIG, STRONG, UGH" but you are ignoring the fatal flaws raised about the NR and how the Feds actually have advantages over them (used to dealing with technobabble (biotech isnt new to them), actual military capable of waging war, little internal division to aid the Vong, transporters etc etc).

I'm not saying that the NR did what it should. Your problem is that you are claiming that the UFP would be more effective, and then claiming that the reason they would be more effective than the NR is because they would do the EXACT SAME THING THE NR DID!

The FKR (and the dominion) are threats because they adapt to new tech much quicker due to experience, it took the NR 2 years to figure out Yammosk speech right? the Feds would have picked it up in the first encounter and figured out patterns by the third or forth (I remember they worked out the language of a crystal lifeform, they figured out what 2d lifeforms were upto and so on - the Feds are better equiped to deal with the unknown but in the first few books you can see the NR had a hrd time geting a handle on exactly what they were up against).

And the UFP would have no time to implement their strategies because in the time it takes THEM to figure out what is going on, they would already have been defeated. Besides, you are bullshitting yet again. O'Brien was able to detect Romulan warbirds that were cloaked by their gravimetric signatures, but the UFP had not been able to do that for years. How is it that a group adapting so quickly was incapable of using gravity in order to detect cloaked ships for so long, if the technology was so commonly available that O'Brien was able to set it up quickly? I use this example because Yammosk speech is related to gravity, and because the inability of SF to adapt to using such a method appears to be so far beyond them as a whole.

The Federation 800 kn bomb did work and its job was done (although again who the hell cares O'Brien said hat was the range and without evidence pointing against it we take his world for it, or being able to reduce th yeild the bomb is made of 90 isotons of technobabble X while you may not be able to reduce it all the way but its should be somewhat doable).

The problem with this is that it seems totally impossible to definitively state that anything within 800 km would be destroyed, especially given the fact that the JH bug they were using was DAMN close to the explosion's source, but was not destroyed by the explosion. Clearly he is saying that the shockwave would reach 800 km, or that a small ship (or something) within that distance, if it did not move, would be destroyed. You are using dialogue to override the visual effects.

The UFP cant hit targets with its transporter - proof please.

They repeatedly have difficulty targeting small and maneuverable craft with just their weapons. It obviously takes much more information on a target to transport someone onto or off of it than it does to simply fire at it. Concession accepted.

As for shields - would they be of any use anyway given that A)The Fed ships still out of Vong range and B) Shields arent going to stop a GT level blast anyway (although they would prevent Magma missiles and Plasma balls from skips (which an area effect torp or two should deal with (something else the NR tried and which worked)).

I assume that you realize how short a campaign like this would be. All the YV would need to do, in this case, would be to destroy SF's bases of operation. This would also be enormously easy for them, if SF could not stand and fight them, needing to remain out of the YV's range at all times. YV capital ships could simply move to Earth, bombard the planet and orbital facilities, infect the biosphere, and then leave. The UFP would then be without virtually all of its government and industrial holdings. Other high-profile planets could also be hit very easily. Further, the relativistic dogfighting that takes place in Destiny's Way virtually precludes the limited range estimates that you require for your scenario to be effective. You really don't think it's a winning strategy to need to stay out of range of your enemy at all times while that same enemy is attacking major systems, do you?