Longhorn to have...monitor DRM?

GEC: Discuss gaming, computers and electronics and venture into the bizarre world of STGODs.

Moderator: Thanas

Post Reply
User avatar
Praxis
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6012
Joined: 2002-12-22 04:02pm
Contact:

Longhorn to have...monitor DRM?

Post by Praxis »

http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000143050582/
The Clicker: Microsoft’s OPM for the masses
Posted Jul 14, 2005, 7:16 PM ET by Peter Rojas
Every Thursday Stephen Speicher contributes The Clicker, a weekly column on television and technology:

A lifetime of computing has taught me one thing: shortly after a new operating system hits the shelves, I end up upgrading my computer. Oh sure… I do my best to limp along with the “antiquated” hardware. After all, my computer is always well within the minimum specs. However, despite my best efforts, the story always unfolds the same way: I begin to crave the speed.

I drool over the new features. I want the latest and greatest. In short, I fold like a cheap suit, and I upgrade. The one bright spot in the upgrade process has always been the monitor. Like the North Star, the monitor is always there to ease the transition. I look to it for comfort, and it stares back at me as if to say, “It’s OK, Buddy; I’m here for you. You’ll always have me.”

Sure, monitors can get a big dated (think dirty beige 14-inch CRT), but when have you had to upgrade your monitor to avoid functional problems in the new OS? That all changes with Longhorn.

Why? With Longhorn, Microsoft will begin pushing opium. Well, technically it’s OPM. However, opium might be a good option for those livid that the video content being sent to their pristine 24-inch Dell LCD monitors is purposefully being “fuzzied” (more on that later).

So what is OPM? The successor to Microsoft’s rarely-mentioned COPP (Certified Output Protection Protocol), PVP-OPM (Protected Video Path – Output Protection Management) is the first play in Microsoft’s game plan to ensure that protected content stays protected. PVP-OPM performs two main functions. First, it detects the capabilities of the display devices attached to the computer. For instance, does the DVI LCD monitor that you’re using have HDCP (High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection)? Second, it manages what, if anything, gets sent to those devices.

If you’re one of those rare people whose display is equipped with HDCP, you’re fine. However, in the world of computers, those users are few and far between. While HDCP has become the de facto standard for display copy-protection in televisions, its penetration in the computer display market would be pleased to merely be called anemic. Whether you’re plunking down money for one of the new ultra-fast LCD displays with 4ms response times or you’re becoming the envy of neighborhood with Dell’s UltraSharp 2405FPW widescreen display, you’re buying a monitor that won’t play nice with premium content in Longhorn.

So what will happen when you try to play premium content on your incompatible monitor? If you’re “lucky”, the content will go through a resolution constrictor. The purpose of this constrictor is to down-sample high-resolution content to below a certain number of pixels. The newly down-sampled content is then blown back up to match the resolution of your monitor. This is much like when you shrink a JPEG and then zoom into it. Much of the clarity is lost. The result is a picture far fuzzier than it need be.

That’s LUCKY?

It sure is — when the alternative is a black screen. If OPM determines that your monitor falls below the security restrictions (i.e. isn’t DVI or HDMI w/HDCP), you could be greeted with a “polite message explaining that [your monitor] doesn’t meet security requirements.”

Who determines when you get the restrictor and when you get the black screen? You guessed it: the content owner does.

“But I use VGA with my monitor,” you say. Too bad. Unless you upgrade your monitor, you too will be hoping your content provider opted for the blurry-but-visible protection mechanism.

Microsoft is quick to point out that many content providers have agreed to not totally block all analog displays. Instead they have agreed to compromise and allow the constricted (down-sampled) versions to pass through. Still — this is a far cry from enjoying the unmolested goodness of hi-def content.

To be fair – it’s not just Microsoft. The next generation of digital content will, by and large, be protected to the display. Recently Toshiba released their HD-DVD specifications and have dictated HDMI/HDCP as a display requirement for playing back high-definition content. Most expect Blu-ray to have similar restrictions.

What makes the PC situation so insidious is that nearly every monitor being sold today will fall victim to this gotcha. Blame whomever you like (the monitor manufacturers should shoulder their portion of the blame too), just be careful when buying a monitor these days. Or at least know that you could be setting yourself up for disappointment.

...

...

I've been...trying to be less of a fanboy...but...can't...hold...back...

:evil:


Let me understand this right. If I don't have a monitor equipped with this HDCP, digital content protection, Longhorn will LIMIT the resolution of vidoes (or is it all output?), either preventing it from playing at all or only playing in a low resolution, unless I buy a brand new monitor?!? And even current monitors and graphics cards don't support this technology so I will need to buy brand new ones in the future or my old ones will look like crap?

And what about laptops? You can't upgrade the monitor on a laptop to a new one with DRM.

...

...

No Longhorn for me, now. Apparently Microsoft's solution to crappy security is putting a DRM on EVERYTHING (processor, graphics card, monitor, etc) and preventing you from running anything they don't approve of. No HD playback without an approved monitor?

I am very angry by this news. Can someone please read this over and tell me I am exaggurating things like in other threads, please? :(
Last edited by Praxis on 2005-07-18 11:53am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
The Grim Squeaker
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10319
Joined: 2005-06-01 01:44am
Location: A different time-space Continuum
Contact:

Post by The Grim Squeaker »

Theyre also in charge of the new DRM for HD-dvd (and plan to force it on blue-ray).

Damn, I used to like Microsodt products until they started doing all the DRM crap, still I was planning to wait for the post longhorn version of windows for a windows version that innovates more than 2 features.

You'll only have the resolution of legally bought or downloaded content reduced. (Sure, that will help with video piracy :roll: )
Photography
Genius is always allowed some leeway, once the hammer has been pried from its hands and the blood has been cleaned up.
To improve is to change; to be perfect is to change often.
User avatar
The Grim Squeaker
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10319
Joined: 2005-06-01 01:44am
Location: A different time-space Continuum
Contact:

Post by The Grim Squeaker »

Heres a nice quote about them wanting to gain traction in music and video DRM:

The Microsoft Inferi are massing on a secret, uncharted island off the coast of Washington, arming themselves for the battle of the century. Bill Gates, disfigured from a recent run-in with Albus Jobs, stands at the head of the long hall, his wand at the ready.

“We will not fail!” he screams. “We will not fall!”

Slowly, the rhythmic thump of a million pasty feet in Tevas fills the hall. The Microsofties are rallying to their Master’s cry, screaming for iPod Blood.

“We will use our connections with Hollywood to cut Apple off at the pass. Our spies even now are massing in Beverly Hills to undermine the Ministry of Movie Magic. Jobs must fail.”

A throaty, if nasal, howl comes from the Inferi. The Microsoft Code Eaters are on the move.
:lol:
Photography
Genius is always allowed some leeway, once the hammer has been pried from its hands and the blood has been cleaned up.
To improve is to change; to be perfect is to change often.
Tiger Ace
Jedi Knight
Posts: 627
Joined: 2005-04-07 02:03am
Location: AWAY

Post by Tiger Ace »

Good, another feature in Longhorns hat, when is the thing coming out? Late 2006? Early 2007?
Nevermind those features, I don't think most will implement it, or it'll be easily crackable.
Useless geek posting above.

Its Ace Pace.
User avatar
Praxis
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6012
Joined: 2002-12-22 04:02pm
Contact:

Post by Praxis »

Tiger Ace wrote:Good, another feature in Longhorns hat, when is the thing coming out? Late 2006? Early 2007?
Nevermind those features, I don't think most will implement it, or it'll be easily crackable.
Nope. Longhorn is running on DRM-enabled processors, IIRC. You're going to have to crack the hardware to crack the software. :shock:
User avatar
Praxis
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6012
Joined: 2002-12-22 04:02pm
Contact:

Post by Praxis »

the .303 bookworm wrote: A throaty, if nasal, howl comes from the Inferi. The Microsoft Code Eaters are on the move.
:lol:
Speaking of code eaters...
On another topic (I wanted to post this but figured it's not worth a whole new thread)...
http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/21398 ... ttles-suit

Looks like an admission of guilt to me. Steal someone's idea, get caught red handed, pay them money for it, and use it anyway.
User avatar
Xon
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6206
Joined: 2002-07-16 06:12am
Location: Western Australia

Post by Xon »

Can we please keep the damn DRM OMG EVIL!!!ONEONE wank to a minium?

And how about something a little more substantial than someone's wanked typing?
"Okay, I'll have the truth with a side order of clarity." ~ Dr. Daniel Jackson.
"Reality has a well-known liberal bias." ~ Stephen Colbert
"One Drive, One Partition, the One True Path" ~ ars technica forums - warrens - on hhd partitioning schemes.
Tiger Ace
Jedi Knight
Posts: 627
Joined: 2005-04-07 02:03am
Location: AWAY

Post by Tiger Ace »

Two notes: Microsoft cannot lock out the AMD using market, which definetly does NOT have DRM yet, so there will be a way to run Longhorn without DRM hardware.

Second, wait for actual results before crying foul.
Useless geek posting above.

Its Ace Pace.
User avatar
Praxis
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6012
Joined: 2002-12-22 04:02pm
Contact:

Post by Praxis »

Tiger Ace wrote:Two notes: Microsoft cannot lock out the AMD using market, which definetly does NOT have DRM yet, so there will be a way to run Longhorn without DRM hardware.

Second, wait for actual results before crying foul.
AMD and Intel are both members of 'trusted computing'.
Can we please keep the damn DRM OMG EVIL!!!ONEONE wank to a minium?

And how about something a little more substantial than someone's wanked typing?
LOL, for some reason I thought I was reading a news source. I forgot that engadget is just a mere blog. Well, that makes me feel better unless some site confirms it.

Thanks for the reality check :lol:
Tiger Ace
Jedi Knight
Posts: 627
Joined: 2005-04-07 02:03am
Location: AWAY

Post by Tiger Ace »

Their both members, but unlike Intel, AMD has not(to my knowledge) yet published their plans for intergrating DRM into their hardware.
Useless geek posting above.

Its Ace Pace.
User avatar
Xon
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6206
Joined: 2002-07-16 06:12am
Location: Western Australia

Post by Xon »

Praxis wrote: LOL, for some reason I thought I was reading a news source. I forgot that engadget is just a mere blog. Well, that makes me feel better unless some site confirms it.

Thanks for the reality check :lol:
I still hate DRM, but the stuff is crackable either by some moron using weak keys (or releasing them), or complex lowlevel code which emulates software/hardware and captures the unencrypted form. This stuff can go as low as the physical hardware while being completely undetactable to the actual software (aka soft-ice style) or modified hardware which captures the signal after being dencrypted .

If 1 person/group can break it, then everyone has broken it due to the wonders of the internet and p2p apps.

Really, DRM just keeps the honest people honest.
"Okay, I'll have the truth with a side order of clarity." ~ Dr. Daniel Jackson.
"Reality has a well-known liberal bias." ~ Stephen Colbert
"One Drive, One Partition, the One True Path" ~ ars technica forums - warrens - on hhd partitioning schemes.
User avatar
Praxis
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6012
Joined: 2002-12-22 04:02pm
Contact:

Post by Praxis »

ggs wrote:Really, DRM just keeps the honest people honest.
Actually, I disagree with this statement. I don't pirate. I don't do anything illegal with my computer whatsoever. However, I find the thought of allowing someone else to govern what apps I run to be repulsive. Further, I refuse to pay more money for a new DRM-capable monitor. I don't mind low level DRM like Napster and iTunes. But these new hardware DRM's really get on my nerves. It feels to me like it's restricting the honest people for the actions of the dishonest.
User avatar
Xon
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6206
Joined: 2002-07-16 06:12am
Location: Western Australia

Post by Xon »

The consumer doent get a choice on if they want DRM these days, everything is made with it, and Big Content isnt going to have it any other way.

The home entertainment area is DRMed upto it's proverbial eyeballs, and computers are well on their way that way.

And I hate iTunes DRM, it helps make DRM more acceptable which is not a good thing for consumers.
"Okay, I'll have the truth with a side order of clarity." ~ Dr. Daniel Jackson.
"Reality has a well-known liberal bias." ~ Stephen Colbert
"One Drive, One Partition, the One True Path" ~ ars technica forums - warrens - on hhd partitioning schemes.
User avatar
Dahak
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7292
Joined: 2002-10-29 12:08pm
Location: Admiralty House, Landing, Manticore
Contact:

Post by Dahak »

Well, it's the movie industry which push quite a bit for this technology. It would get them back some control, or so they think.
Image
Great Dolphin Conspiracy - Chatter box
"Implications: we have been intercepted deliberately by a means unknown, for a purpose unknown, and transferred to a place unknown by a form of intelligence unknown. Apart from the unknown, everything is obvious." ZORAC
GALE Force Euro Wimp
Human dignity shall be inviolable. To respect and protect it shall be the duty of all state authority.
Image
User avatar
Chmee
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4449
Joined: 2004-12-23 03:29pm
Location: Seattle - we already buried Hendrix ... Kurt who?

Post by Chmee »

Microsoft writing OS features that will make your hardware perform much more crappily than its design potential?

Gee, I'm shocked.
[img=right]http://www.tallguyz.com/imagelib/chmeesig.jpg[/img]My guess might be excellent or it might be crummy, but
Mrs. Spade didn't raise any children dippy enough to
make guesses in front of a district attorney,
an assistant district attorney, and a stenographer
.

Sam Spade, "The Maltese Falcon"

Operation Freedom Fry
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

Can someone more familiar with this scheme explain why it's impossible to hack without altering the hardware, as some have suggested?
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Praxis
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6012
Joined: 2002-12-22 04:02pm
Contact:

Post by Praxis »

Well, it MAY be impossible to hack (or just really dang hard) if Longhorn REQUIRES a processor with DRM to run, such as Palladium.

But that's just a guess. It could be just as easy to hack as any other DRM. Maybe.
User avatar
Pu-239
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4727
Joined: 2002-10-21 08:44am
Location: Fake Virginia

Post by Pu-239 »

What about something like VMware?

ah.....the path to happiness is revision of dreams and not fulfillment... -SWPIGWANG
Sufficient Googling is indistinguishable from knowledge -somebody
Anything worth the cost of a missile, which can be located on the battlefield, will be shot at with missiles. If the US military is involved, then things, which are not worth the cost if a missile will also be shot at with missiles. -Sea Skimmer


George Bush makes freedom sound like a giant robot that breaks down a lot. -Darth Raptor
User avatar
SPOOFE
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3174
Joined: 2002-07-03 07:34pm
Location: Woodland Hills, CA
Contact:

Post by SPOOFE »

If there's any software element to this latest DRM scheme - which there must be, unless they actually give you a dongle to use with every movie you download - then it can be hacked. It might be DIFFICULT, but impossible? Doubtful.
The Great and Malignant
User avatar
Praxis
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6012
Joined: 2002-12-22 04:02pm
Contact:

Post by Praxis »

I bow to your superior knowledge.
User avatar
Drooling Iguana
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4975
Joined: 2003-05-13 01:07am
Location: Sector ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha

Post by Drooling Iguana »

Well, if this sort of thing becomes unavoidable, I guess my course of action is clear. I'll just have to stop buying DVDs and get all my movies in pre-cracked form over file-sharing networks. There's no way in hell that I'm going to spend my hard-earned cash on a deliberately crippled product when a superior version will undoubtedly be easily available for free.
Image
"Stop! No one can survive these deadly rays!"
"These deadly rays will be your death!"
- Thor and Akton, Starcrash

"Before man reaches the moon your mail will be delivered within hours from New York to California, to England, to India or to Australia by guided missiles.... We stand on the threshold of rocket mail."
- Arthur Summerfield, US Postmaster General 1953 - 1961
User avatar
Seggybop
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1954
Joined: 2002-07-20 07:09pm
Location: USA

Post by Seggybop »

Way to encourage us to turn to legal content instead of continuing merrily along with the torrents.
my heart is a shell of depleted uranium
User avatar
Mr Bean
Lord of Irony
Posts: 22465
Joined: 2002-07-04 08:36am

Post by Mr Bean »

Its the old stratagy all over agian.
Sure you can buy it from us, but don't you dare do anything with it!

"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
User avatar
SPOOFE
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3174
Joined: 2002-07-03 07:34pm
Location: Woodland Hills, CA
Contact:

Post by SPOOFE »

Way to encourage us to turn to legal content instead of continuing merrily along with the torrents.
While I certainly agree with you - that most copy-protection schemes only seem to hurt legitimate consumers - may I ask what you, or the body at large, would propose said companies do to protect their copyrighted material? I mean, such things as "don't charge so much" and.... well, okay, that's about it... while such things are all well and good, what steps can be taken to stop piracy that will not hinder legitimate consumers? Or do you think companies should just absorb the losses as a cost of doing business?
The Great and Malignant
User avatar
Mr Bean
Lord of Irony
Posts: 22465
Joined: 2002-07-04 08:36am

Post by Mr Bean »

SPOOFE wrote:
Way to encourage us to turn to legal content instead of continuing merrily along with the torrents.
While I certainly agree with you - that most copy-protection schemes only seem to hurt legitimate consumers - may I ask what you, or the body at large, would propose said companies do to protect their copyrighted material? I mean, such things as "don't charge so much" and.... well, okay, that's about it... while such things are all well and good, what steps can be taken to stop piracy that will not hinder legitimate consumers? Or do you think companies should just absorb the losses as a cost of doing business?
Three simple ways

1. Offer thier product online to download from anywhere in the world for the same price.

2. Offer it in SUPIROR quality than CD's Right now I can get a 1024kb version of many popular(As per the top 50) songs. Something I CAN'T get legitimatley for most music.

3. Sueing users is a wasted effort. Fear might keep the local systems in line but it just means your dedicated folks are simply going to move to were its not legal(Digitaly move anyway) or you find out suprise surpise that its hard to prove DRM related charges.

"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
Post Reply