A Logic Question About the Future of (Space) Warfare

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GrandMasterTerwynn
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Re: Umm?

Post by GrandMasterTerwynn »

HSRTG wrote:Maybe I missed this, or maybe just everyone is assuming this and I'm just especially retarded, but everyone seems to assume that the ship's main drive is ALWAYS firing and ALWAYS operational at setting: Thrust. In real life (ref Apollo missions) the thrusters fired to get the ship in to the correct orbit w/minimum amount of fuel expended. Is it SLIGHTLY possible this might happen in the future?
Dude, put down the bong. I don't think anyone here is assuming that a realistic combat vessel's drive is continuously 'on'. A missile's drive would be 'on' much more than its firing ship's drives are, though. Especially since the missile is trying to intercept its target in a timeframe that isn't measured in months or years.
Next: If you know that the enemy is defending a planet/rich asteroid, why wait until you know you're in detection range of guardian ships? Launch the guided missiles a little bit (say 24-48 hours) beforehand, then give final targeting data once your sure of the target, with a narrow-beam radio transmission to the missiles that you fired. The ship itself is not given away, and the enemy instantly has a problem.
Narrow-beam radio transmissions suffer the same sorts of spreading problems that lasers do. Once you fire a missile, you will be committed to whatever consequences that action wil have. The only radio transmission it should be capable of recieving is an abort command, and even then, the utility of it would be limited . . . especially if your enemy happens to know your codes.

And besides, if you're attacking a planet or asteroid, such things don't maneuver, so you would probably fire a dual-stage fire-and-forget missile.

One stage blasts it to as high a velocity as possible, and then lets the second stage cruise to where the planet or asteroid is going to be so many hours or days from the time of launch. Then, the kill stage will carry enough propellant to make the corrective burns needed to impact a target of interest. (We'll assume that machine vision will have made advances between now and the timeframe of our space combat. The missile's intelligence should be able to spot interesting-looking features and guide itself towards them. If it uses passive, multispectral imaging (a telescope with a filter wheel and a sensor sensitive to a wide band of the EM spectrum, essentially. Tack on a radio reciever too if one wants and maybe a small X-ray camera for added capability,) then the ships protecting the immobile asset may not spot the high speed missile until it coasts past them and hits the target.
As to how the missiles know what to pursue, give each one a small, cheap CPU. Say 150-200 MHz with a bit of memory? Once the missiles get themselves moving at a reasonable (and no I don't know what this is) speed, have the engines shut off and coast in to the target. And no, I have no idea for countermeasures to large point-defense lasers. This attack is for Maximum Stealth Mode, intended for 1-3 ships, if that.

Or maybe I'm just blowing hot air and am a waste of oxygen.
In the timeframes required for us to have built up sufficient space infrastructure to be worth fighting over, computing technology, even highly redundant, radiation-hardened computing technology, should have advanced considerably. Chances are, a space missile will have enough computing smarts to be able to tell the difference between a hill, a fusion reactor, and a deep-space scanning installation, and will have prioritized these down to the n-th level, and will be able to figure out which one it wants to attack and which one it can reach, given its velocity, heading, propellant reserves, and how high a profile it is allowed to have.
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Post by Oskuro »

Sorry if this has already been posted, or if my interpretation of history is terribly wrong, but I belive that Space warfare would follow the same evolution than naval warfare followed through history... (This is my interpretation, of course).

First type of ship will, obviously, be transport ships to bring in valuable materials.

So, the second type of ship will, doubtlessly, be some sort of interceptor that PIRATES will use to intercept the merchandise!

The third type of ship would be a first generation escort ship to protect the cargo hauler from pirates.

And so weapons would escalate, as I think they did back in ancient times, until we hit a point where massive enough fleets patrol the systems and make "traditional" piracy less viable.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that ancient boats were all tranport boats, and the notion of sea combat appeared when pirates got to intercepting trade routes.


So, as usual, the whole point of goinf out there (getting to new places, and as such, getting new resources) would be enough of a reason for tension and conflict.

As for weapons.... What about Railguns of sorts? Given that there is no air resistance in space, a super-accelerated piece of metal would be terrbily damaging (I recall a picture of a hole made on a metal plate by a super-accelerated speck of DUST). Also, firing slugs of metal would be cheap enough not to worry too much about precision. Hey, you could even try and calculate the orbit of your projectiles around a planet to hit ships not in your line of sight! (Wacky, I know)
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Post by Nephtys »

The problem is, with Pirates... spacecraft are not likely in the future to become cheap at all. If Commercial spaceflight takes off, there still is a ridiculously huge jump from there, to a commerce raider. Development and manufacture of high technology remains the exclusive field of the Government and major companies.

Unless you're saying major companies would do the raiding. Which still under present political conditions, would not be possible, since companies still answer to laws.
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Post by Oskuro »

And, expanding on weaponry and the "Railguns"....

Basically picture a toroid much like a particle accelerator. This toroid would be fed with magnetically or electrically reactive pellets, or slugs, wich would then be accelerated to great speeds by running them around the toroid.

When the speed reaches the desired value, the magnetic/electrical field would then drive the projectile into the firing tube, and out into space. This would be quite a potent weapon.

I think that using small enough particles (even atomic particles) would create what we could call a... "particle weapon", that could project super-accelerated particles that would cause a sort of erosion damage to the target... or worse.

By configurating the accelerator to be coil-shaped (with as many coils as needed to attain the necessary speed), or by playing with the charge of the acceleration field and the particles, it is conceivable to actually project a continuous stream of hyper-accelerated particles (A particle beam). Throw in some ionized glowing gas to act as a tracer for the gunners, and you get quite a neat sci-fi looking weapon, that might be useful in space.

Of course, the ship would have to compensate for the thrust such a weapon would generate.

An example of how solid projectiles might work in a realistic space battle can be seen in the movie "Mission to Mars" (Starring Tim Robbins, maybe I didn't nail the title because I'm translating it from Spanish). There, they get hit by a meteor shower that pretty much leaves the ship unoperable.

Anyone with proper training in physics (not my cursory enthusiastic knowledge) can point out the validity of my idea?


Also, we could always part with the pleasantries and mount oversized miniguns on our ships.
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Post by Nephtys »

*snip from previous*

Railguns are highly inefficient, especially with modern technology and materials. Or near-modern. We'd never get them to fire to a velocity even a tiny fraction of c. Their range would be quite low, accuracy pathetic, energy requirements high, mass high, ammunition heavy. They'd only work at basically visual ranges.

A Missile still seems like the only logical weapon, as the course adjustments and capacity to inflict a kill without a direct hit would be invaluable.
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Post by GrandMasterTerwynn »

LordOskuro wrote:<snip>
For piracy to work, you need the cargoes being transported to be of sufficient value that those recieving the cargo won't care much where it came from, or who's delivering it. And it requires that the transports be out of communication for long periods of time.

In any realistic future space society, it can be demonstrated that the cargoes a ship would carry will be significantly less valuable than the ships themselves. The ships will be enormously expensive, require expensive maintenance, and require highly-trained crews with college degrees and technical certifications sticking out of every bodily orifice.

The same would go for any space pirates. Their ships would be equally expensive and require highly trained crews to operate, and would likely be entirely reliant on the support of some major government that can supply them with the industrial infrastructure needed to supply them with propellant, spare parts, food, and spare crew.

In other words, all space pirates will be (at the most independent) privateers operating at the direct authorization of whatever government is sponsoring them. More likely, they will be military regulars of that government who will be tasked with simply capturing the ships and crews, adding them to the government inventory and forcing the opposing governments to spend the ransom money to get them back (if government #1 doesn't have the resources to maintain their new prize,) or spend the resources to build a replacement and recruit and train replacement crews.

Any real criminal space pirates will likely be small-time operators working at the places where the cargo is recieved and disposed of. They'll probably be white-collar criminals, cooking the books to skim off inflated profits, or buying up and reselling space cargoes as a way of laundering money made in more traditional criminal activities.
As for weapons.... What about Railguns of sorts? Given that there is no air resistance in space, a super-accelerated piece of metal would be terrbily damaging (I recall a picture of a hole made on a metal plate by a super-accelerated speck of DUST). Also, firing slugs of metal would be cheap enough not to worry too much about precision. Hey, you could even try and calculate the orbit of your projectiles around a planet to hit ships not in your line of sight! (Wacky, I know)
Railguns suffer from this little thing called conservation of momentum. You know, ever action has an equal and opposite reaction. If you fire a high-speed slug from a spaceship, it will be like firing a thruster. For every railgun shot, the ship will have to expend propellant to get back on course. And, if they were to fire railgun shots fast enough to be accurate and powerful enough to do damage, then these guns will have to be mounted in large, heavy enclosures, adding to the mass of the ship. In a realistic space combat scenario, mass will be at a premium.
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Post by Oskuro »

Nephtys wrote:The problem is, with Pirates... spacecraft are not likely in the future to become cheap at all. If Commercial spaceflight takes off, there still is a ridiculously huge jump from there, to a commerce raider. Development and manufacture of high technology remains the exclusive field of the Government and major companies.
Then change "piracy" for "smuggling".

Although I must digress with your assertion. I think the premise of establishing trade routes or passenger transport implies that the technology is commonplace and attainable for non-government agencies and individuals. Take spaceflight today as an example, since it is high tech, it is prohibitely costly to ride a rocket up to space, and so far only a couple gazillionaires have managed to do it.
To have common routes to space and back we would need the technology to be cheaper, and by that time, as the Space Ship One flight proved, private interests will be able to mount their own flights independently, much like seafaring trade and navigation works today.

Anyway, security of trade routes would be a good reason to escalate spacefaring weapon research and development (be it aganist pirates, hazards, or hostile governements who might just ambush a rival trade convoy)

(Hey! Aren't we experimenting this process on the Internet?! Firstly, it was a prohibitive government-controlled network. Then, as it opened up to the public, and economic interests began to appear everywhere, we got to the concept of Cyber-Crime, and, in response to this, we are witnessing the development of tools and regulations to fight these aggressions.... Wich, much like any other type of warfare, has a lot of collateral damage...)
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Sorry

Post by HSRTG »

I apologise for my stupidity. I'll go back to lurking until I grow some brains.
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Post by GrandMasterTerwynn »

LordOskuro wrote:
Nephtys wrote:The problem is, with Pirates... spacecraft are not likely in the future to become cheap at all. If Commercial spaceflight takes off, there still is a ridiculously huge jump from there, to a commerce raider. Development and manufacture of high technology remains the exclusive field of the Government and major companies.
Then change "piracy" for "smuggling".
What would you smuggle, though? Drugs? It would be cheaper to produce these at home. Adding the overhead from moving them through space, and you have a product that is now genuinely as expensive as your pushers on the streets are selling it for. Say goodbye to your profit margins. Mass is going to be at a premium aboard any spaceship, especially in a realistic society where you're not going to have ships built with handwavium and powered by unobtanium. Every last gram of mass is going to be accounted for. They're going to count and double-count, triple-count every last widget that is being loaded onto that ship. You simply wouldn't get the chance to smuggle anything, end-of-story.
Although I must digress with your assertion. I think the premise of establishing trade routes or passenger transport implies that the technology is commonplace and attainable for non-government agencies and individuals.
Large corporations count as non-government agencies. Though if they're big enough to build something as inherently expensive as a cargo-carrying spaceship, then they're going to have officer academies and sub-consortiums to supply them with shipbuilding materials and yards. In short, they will become governments themselves. An individual will never be able to own and operate his very own cargo-carrying spaceship, since he will ultimately require the services of a large government to maintain and fuel it.
Take spaceflight today as an example, since it is high tech, it is prohibitely costly to ride a rocket up to space, and so far only a couple gazillionaires have managed to do it.
To have common routes to space and back we would need the technology to be cheaper, and by that time, as the Space Ship One flight proved, private interests will be able to mount their own flights independently, much like seafaring trade and navigation works today.
No limits fallacy. We're hitting the point where we're going to get intimately familiar with the experience of being the unwilling guest of honor in a gangbang featuring Sir Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein. A spaceship capable of going to Mars or the asteroid belt in a reasonable timeframe will require complex computer equipment, life-support, sophisticated sets of thrusters, obscenely complex chemical or nuclear thrusters (requiring refining facilities for producing the nuclear materials, or the high-tolerance containment equipment capable of standing up to the rigors of fission/fusion while being light enough to make it worth putting them in a spaceship.) And if you want to go somewhere really fast, you're stuck with antimatter, which requires enormous, costly facilities just to produce useable quantities of the stuff (we're talking enormous solar-powered colliders requiring enormous investments of capital.) There will be no amateur and hobbyist space pilots.

Another point, if you knew anything at all about Scaled Composites, the company that built Spaceship One, you'd know that the company is comprised of highly educated engineers, sophisticated facilities, and shitloads of capital. The test pilots were all ex-military. The only successful (to date) independent sub-orbital spaceflight venture was undertaken by professionals, not amateurs building a rocket in their garage in their spare time.
Anyway, security of trade routes would be a good reason to escalate spacefaring weapon research and development (be it aganist pirates, hazards, or hostile governements who might just ambush a rival trade convoy)
A) Pirates debunked extensively already. Criminal space pirates will never exist without handwavium.
B) The only natural hazards a spaceship will face are small rocks that were missed in some survey, or angry Sun tantrums. Rocks can be avoided with minor trajectory changes, and you face down angry Sun tantrums from the safety of a well-shielded shelter.
C) Without handwavium, all ships will be enormously expensive. You'll want to try to do as little damage as possible to them. Secondly, it's rather difficult to conduct ambushes in deep space without a lot of sneaking around and patience. And even then, unless your trajectories match perfectly, you'll never catch your target. Your target will know this.
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Post by Junghalli »

LordOskuro wrote:First type of ship will, obviously, be transport ships to bring in valuable materials.
So, the second type of ship will, doubtlessly, be some sort of interceptor that PIRATES will use to intercept the merchandise!
Piracy of that type would be impractical, for reasons already posted by GMT. I expect the evolution of military spacecraft to go something more like this.
The first space war will be when control of a world comes under question. The first type of "military" spacecraft will simply be regular carriers full of soldiers and military equipment.
Earth already has a system capable of defending from such an attack, in the form of orbit-capable missiles. The technology will undoubtedly be much better by this time period.
To counter this the next time around the invaders will load up some ships with missiles and use them to protect the rest of the fleet.
The defenders will counter with hunter-killer spacecraft.
The invaders will make their own hunter-killer spacecraft to counter.
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Post by Nephtys »

A better example is this. Right now, Piracy does not exist in any form greater than a bunch of indonisian speedboats with Uzis. It's not like back in the day, where an occasional privateer/pirate could have a military type ship. Right now, no criminal can possibly have a Destroyer or missile cruiser. Or even a frigate or the like.

Why would that change, when having modern fighting ships gets even more expensive?
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Post by Surlethe »

The only remotely conceivable pirating would be privateering sponsored by rival nations, and even then probably not, when outright hostilites will probably follow anyway.
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Post by tharkûn »

First type of ship will, obviously, be transport ships to bring in valuable materials.
Nope. This space, vacuum, the big black nothingness. If want to "ship" something in space you can just lob it onto an appropriate trajectory and let mass carry it to its destination. Even you need to say keep it warm and humid you can just place into appropriate cargo containters and possibly attach ion engines. At most you need cargo containers with solar sails, ion engines, or something else efficient, for many things you can just let gravity do the work for you.

So, the second type of ship will, doubtlessly, be some sort of interceptor that PIRATES will use to intercept the merchandise!
Also doubtful. I predict that internal tracking will be cheap enough that each sample can be tagged with a tracking system (either a solar version of GPS or internial trajectory monitoring). Once you say start to move say a few tons of platinum out of its predefined trajectory the container would sense it is being accelerated off its trajectory and send out a distress call (or wire it up deadman). At which point some type of defensive measure is going to be taken, long before a minimally powered cargo container can be hijacked. The only things that might really need a ship are those that cannot have a long time of flight (people, animals, medicines, etc.).

Far more likely than priracy would be some form of privateer paid, equipped, and supplied by a clandestinely warring government.
The third type of ship would be a first generation escort ship to protect the cargo hauler from pirates.
The first type of ship will be military, most likely something to seize space supremacy, this will begin once space supremacy cannot be acheived from the ground as it currently is today.

The second type of ship would be some type of escort to protect the cargo from meteor impacts, missile attacks, etc. Once economic warfare is adopted by some entity in space then these ships will be uparmed to fight privateers and legitimate commerce raiders.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that ancient boats were all tranport boats, and the notion of sea combat appeared when pirates got to intercepting trade routes.
Sea combat has been known in the earliest histories of warfare. Piracy likely didn't spark naval conflict as the first target would have been to sink the boats of rival fishermen to starve them in some prehistoric conflict.

As for weapons.... What about Railguns of sorts? Given that there is no air resistance in space, a super-accelerated piece of metal would be terrbily damaging (I recall a picture of a hole made on a metal plate by a super-accelerated speck of DUST). Also, firing slugs of metal would be cheap enough not to worry too much about precision. Hey, you could even try and calculate the orbit of your projectiles around a planet to hit ships not in your line of sight! (Wacky, I know)
Sensor technology will work at c. Given the ranges at which detection occur long before you have short enough ToF for an unguided munition, a long range course correcting missile will be able home in on your ass. Let's say all space ships are spheres 1 km in diameter. You have to weight until your gun has the enemy bracketed into +/- 500 meters, including evasion while the projectile is flight. A guided missile can do much better if it is fired twice as far away with +/- 1 km it can vector in and keep decreasing its error bars. It is entirely possible for missiles to have stupendously greater effective ranges than even lasers, let alone massive projectiles.
In any realistic future space society, it can be demonstrated that the cargoes a ship would carry will be significantly less valuable than the ships themselves. The ships will be enormously expensive, require expensive maintenance, and require highly-trained crews with college degrees and technical certifications sticking out of every bodily orifice.
That assumes that modern attitudes about slavery don't change. It is quite likely that the crew and passengers of a cargo ship would be more valueable than the ship.

Likewise you are also assuming that extortionary 'piracy' and simply capturing the prize ship itself are not viable.

Yes there is a very narrow range of viable piracy options in the future that only occur under special circumstances; much of this will due to the fact that stellar shipping itself sucks.
Any real criminal space pirates will likely be small-time operators working at the places where the cargo is recieved and disposed of. They'll probably be white-collar criminals, cooking the books to skim off inflated profits, or buying up and reselling space cargoes as a way of laundering money made in more traditional criminal activities.
Extortion would still be a good living. A commericial vessel is not going to have much chance of surviving a run in with combat vessel, even a converted privateer. Some mutinious crew could make a decent living merely by lining ships up in the missile sights and then extorting negotiables (money, stock, or whatever) from the passengers and crew for the privilege of not dying. All that would require is some place where the pirates could bank.
Although I must digress with your assertion. I think the premise of establishing trade routes or passenger transport implies that the technology is commonplace and attainable for non-government agencies and individuals. Take spaceflight today as an example, since it is high tech, it is prohibitely costly to ride a rocket up to space, and so far only a couple gazillionaires have managed to do it.
Space doesn't require ships to move goods. Throw a cargo container into spiralling trajectory and it will make it to the destination with minimal thrust. Only a very small subset of what is transported via ships today will require ships to transport it then. Extortion, slaving, and prize nabbing are all possibilities, stealing the cargo seems unlikely unless there is a reason why real warships can't be on patrol.
There will be no amateur and hobbyist space pilots.
No those will exist. Once you get into space it is ludicriously cheap to "pilot" around. The caveat is that thou shalt not move significantly up a gravity well for cheap. If you have a moderately affordable transport between Luna and Titan there will be some idiot who builds his own little box equipped with an ion engine and life support who opts to ride down the gravity well. Such amateurs obviously can't sustain economic activity, but they will exist as a snob hobby among the ludicriously rich (much how certain billionaires fly disarmed fighter jets).
A better example is this. Right now, Piracy does not exist in any form greater than a bunch of indonisian speedboats with Uzis. It's not like back in the day, where an occasional privateer/pirate could have a military type ship. Right now, no criminal can possibly have a Destroyer or missile cruiser. Or even a frigate or the like.

Why would that change, when having modern fighting ships gets even more expensive?
The reason piracy doesn't exist today is because the USN, and to a lesser extent the RN, French Navy, JSDF, etc. have many extremely powerful warships that trump anything pirate can bring to bear. However these ships do not exist solely to beat the crap out of pirates who would be stupid enough to up arm their ships. Anti-piracy is something modern navies do when they aren't off fighting wars, training to fight wars, or dealing with disasters.

The last time privateers/pirates were successful was backed before the world had a naval superpower with an inordinately large warfleet with nothing to do in peacetime. In space extortionary piracy will be viable when such a fleet doesn't exist (because it hasn't been cost effective to build yet), or when it is off doing something else (like say pounding the crap out of Ceres colony). The most likely return of privateers would come when some power wanted to commence commerce raiding, but with plausible deniability.
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Post by wolveraptor »

I expect that due to the cost of building ships, most will be decades old, and so it will be centuries until the number of ships that exist will be high enough for them to be commercially viable to the general public. Also, with the increasing advancements in computer technology and robotics, people may not have to know how to navigate ships like a professional. It may become like a modern car: far too advanced for the layman, but still useable. In the distant future, a family going on a trip to Io, may simply have to tell the shipboard computer their destination, and it'll do the rest (i.e. contacting satelites which will probably be monitoring the position of the planets).

Speaking of planets; they're still valuable to humans, and let's face it: if there's any alien race so advanced that they have no need of planets and are able to develop a real-life FTL drive, they can't be fought anyways. Most of the discussion here pertains to humans, who will defend and conquer planets, without seeking to harm the civillian populace and the existing infrastructure. Think about what Alexander the Great did: he left existing governments in place, and just replaced the posts with those loyal to him. This saved him the trouble of re-organizing entire kingdoms. Had he looted and sacked every city he came into contact with, he wouldn't be an Emporer, but a raider.
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