First Look at RotS Deleted Scene (birth of the Alliance)

Battlehymn Republic · Post by **Battlehymn Republic** » 2005-07-19 03:11pm

I still don't get it though (I'm still thinking about a possible early "Second Republic" being declared in my Jr. Infinities ROTS)- so basically, several liberal Senators get together and talk, but they don't decide to start their resistance or the Rebellion until years later, right?

So an immediate liberal knee-jerk anti-Empire political organization being started is out of the question, right?

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2005-07-19 03:59pm

They tried to lead a peaceful "rebellion" in the Senate, but only formed an actual rebellion after it became obvious the former wasn't working. This was probably after the Ghorman Massacre.

Xero Cool Down · Post by **Xero Cool Down** » 2005-07-19 04:06pm

I can't help but notice that all of the people in the pictures are human. If the Empire discriminated against non humans as the EU suggests, why wouldn't there be more non humans fighting the Empire to start off with. If the Emporer had problems with non humans it should have been brought out in the prequels since there is no reason to start discriminating against them after he has total control of the Republic.

Also, the prequels also show that not having non humans in uniform in the OT is not proof that the Empire discriminated against nonhumans since we see none (at least that I can recall) in uniform in the Republic.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-07-19 04:17pm

Xero Cool Down wrote:I can't help but notice that all of the people in the pictures are human. If the Empire discriminated against non humans as the EU suggests, why wouldn't there be more non humans fighting the Empire to start off with. If the Emporer had problems with non humans it should have been brought out in the prequels since there is no reason to start discriminating against them after he has total control of the Republic.

Also, the prequels also show that not having non humans in uniform in the OT is not proof that the Empire discriminated against nonhumans since we see none (at least that I can recall) in uniform in the Republic.

Perhpas the non-human senators were already starting to fear for their daftey, and thus were reluctant to get involved with the new Alliance (especially since most of the CIS was non-human, which already placed them under more suspision, warranted or not.)

I still don't understand why people are so addemant in proving that the Empire is not xenophobic, even though it is widely supported in the EU, and there is nothing in the movies that contradict it.

Xero Cool Down · Post by **Xero Cool Down** » 2005-07-19 04:23pm

Noble Ire wrote:Perhpas the non-human senators were already starting to fear for their daftey, and thus were reluctant to get involved with the new Alliance (especially since most of the CIS was non-human, which already placed them under more suspision, warranted or not.)

I still don't understand why people are so addemant in proving that the Empire is not xenophobic, even though it is widely supported in the EU, and there is nothing in the movies that contradict it.

Why did it ever come into play in the EU? Mostly becuase we never saw any aliens in the Imperial military. Considering that

1) we don't see any non humans in the Republic military either, and

2) the reactions that a mostly nonhuman group of senators showed toward Palpatine's ascention to the throne I'd say that

xenophobia in the Empire is purely the creation of the EU and contradicts the attitudes that are prevalent in prequels.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-07-19 04:27pm

xenophobia in the Empire is purely the creation of the EU and contradicts the attitudes that are prevalent in prequels.

Gee, I wonder why.

The prequels, save the last hour of ROTS, are Republic era. For those of you who dont know, there is a difference between the Republic and the Empire.

And even if it is a EU creation, why are people always so pissed of about it?

Xero Cool Down · Post by **Xero Cool Down** » 2005-07-19 04:42pm

Noble Ire wrote:
xenophobia in the Empire is purely the creation of the EU and contradicts the attitudes that are prevalent in prequels.
Gee, I wonder why.

The prequels, save the last hour of ROTS, are Republic era. For those of you who dont know, there is a difference between the Republic and the Empire.

The only difference I see between the Old Republic and the Empire is that the Old Republic was so politically corrupt and militarily impotent that it couldn't even keep its own member worlds from being forcibly taken over by a corporation, while the Empire had an absolute intolerance for any rebellion against authority, a reasonable response considering the destruction caused by the Clone Wars. Also, considering that thousands of worlds went over to the CIS due to the corruption of the Old Republic and the way that the senators welcomed a leader like Palpatine I'd say that they judged that losing a few freedoms was better than having the old government in power.

And even if it is a EU creation, why are people always so pissed of about it?

Nobody's pissed, but many do disagree with the idea because it is entirely a EU creation that goes against the image presented by the movies.

Battlehymn Republic · Post by **Battlehymn Republic** » 2005-07-19 04:48pm

The Old Republic is democratic, but weak and corrupt. It's one of the cases when there's a government "too free", leading to authoritarians coming to power.

Xero Cool Down · Post by **Xero Cool Down** » 2005-07-19 04:52pm

Battlehymn Republic wrote:The Old Republic is democratic, but weak and corrupt. It's one of the cases when there's a government "too free", leading to authoritarians coming to power.

hmmm I don't really see that it was very democratic. While senators might vote, how one becomes a senator seems to be up to the society where he/she/it comes from, and the OR didn't seem to care if you got elected democratically or if you took that power by force.

Battlehymn Republic · Post by **Battlehymn Republic** » 2005-07-19 04:53pm

Ok, maybe it's not politically very free, it is at least socially free compared to the Empire, obviously.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-07-19 04:58pm

Jason von Evil wrote:I don't see Garm Bel Iblis in that picture. EU takes another kick to the nuts.

from the novelization

ROTS Novelization pg.256-257 wrote:Fang Zar:face creased with old laugh lines, Dressed in robes so simple they might almost be homespun, unruly brush of hair gathered into a tigh topnot, and an even more unruly brush of beard that sprayed uncontrolled around his jaw. He had a gentle, almost simplistic way of speaking that could easily lead one to forget that he was one of the sharpest political minds in the Senate. Also, he was such a close friend of Garm Bel Iblis that the powerfull Corellian senator might as well have been present in person

(empahsis mine) as you can see Senator Bel Iblis had no reason to be present in person also the Novelization says that he one of the 2000 Senators who signed the petion agaist Palpatine

Xero Cool Down · Post by **Xero Cool Down** » 2005-07-19 04:59pm

Battlehymn Republic wrote:Ok, maybe it's not politically very free, it is at least socially free compared to the Empire, obviously.

What do you mean socially free? I don't see any evidence that the Empire isn't from the OT movies.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2005-07-19 05:02pm

Xero Cool Down wrote:
Battlehymn Republic wrote:Ok, maybe it's not politically very free, it is at least socially free compared to the Empire, obviously.

What do you mean socially free? I don't see any evidence that the Empire isn't from the OT movies.

Lack of Evidence is not Evidence of lack. We don't see much either way. Aside from the fct a whole bunch of people are willing to rebel against them. Probably means they're doing something wrong, don'tcha think?

Battlehymn Republic · Post by **Battlehymn Republic** » 2005-07-19 05:04pm

I don't think there's much of a freedom to speech.

Or expression.

Or religion, if it's against the brutal practices of the Empire.

Think about it.

Xero Cool Down · Post by **Xero Cool Down** » 2005-07-19 05:08pm

Crazedwraith wrote:
Xero Cool Down wrote:
Battlehymn Republic wrote:Ok, maybe it's not politically very free, it is at least socially free compared to the Empire, obviously.

What do you mean socially free? I don't see any evidence that the Empire isn't from the OT movies.
Lack of Evidence is not Evidence of lack. We don't see much either way. Aside from the fct a whole bunch of people are willing to rebel against them. Probably means they're doing something wrong, don'tcha think?

Those "whole bunch of people" mostly consists of the same people that started the rebellion 20 years earlier. If the Empire was so oppressive I would think that they might have gathered more support by then.

Xero Cool Down · Post by **Xero Cool Down** » 2005-07-19 05:11pm

Battlehymn Republic wrote:I don't think there's much of a freedom to speech.

Or expression.

Or religion, if it's against the brutal practices of the Empire.

Think about it.

Show me evidence from the movies that any of those things was happening. They might have been, but there is no evidence, and in any case my original point still stands that there is no evidence that the Empire discriminated against non humans.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2005-07-19 05:11pm

Xero Cool Down wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:
Xero Cool Down wrote:
What do you mean socially free? I don't see any evidence that the Empire isn't from the OT movies.
Lack of Evidence is not Evidence of lack. We don't see much either way. Aside from the fct a whole bunch of people are willing to rebel against them. Probably means they're doing something wrong, don'tcha think?

Those "whole bunch of people" mostly consists of the same people that started the rebellion 20 years earlier. If the Empire was so oppressive I would think that they might have gathered more support by then.

You think a dozen senators were all of the rebellion?

Most of the people we seen in the breifings in all the movies can't have been much more than children in the Clone Wars. Why do you think they joined?

Xero Cool Down · Post by **Xero Cool Down** » 2005-07-19 05:15pm

Most of the people in charge are the exact same people that started the rebellion.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2005-07-19 05:16pm

Xero Cool Down wrote:Most of the people in charge are the exact same people that started the rebellion.

umm...so?

They still had grunts and such. Why do you think they joined up if the Empire was not opressive?

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-07-19 05:25pm

the Allliance for restaration of Republic (aka the Rebel Alliance) wounldn't been anything then footnote in Emperial historys book if there wasn't any support to it during the OT (after all there's God knows how many wacko fundie and/or right (or left) wing groups that try to "rebel" agaist the US (with no true success as they lack the popular support)). And the Senators in ROTS just aren't enough.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2005-07-19 06:32pm

Crazedwraith wrote:
Xero Cool Down wrote:Most of the people in charge are the exact same people that started the rebellion.
umm...so?

They still had grunts and such. Why do you think they joined up if the Empire was not opressive?

I don't know. Perhaps because there are always fringe loonies who hate any particular government? After all, the US had a large number of anti-government militias, yet we're not precisely an oppressive regime. Rebellion does not always stem from repression.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-07-19 06:59pm

Xero Cool Down wrote:
Battlehymn Republic wrote:Ok, maybe it's not politically very free, it is at least socially free compared to the Empire, obviously.

What do you mean socially free? I don't see any evidence that the Empire isn't from the OT movies.

The Emperor "dissolved the senate." Can a ruler of a free nation do that unilaterally?

Those "whole bunch of people" mostly consists of the same people that started the rebellion 20 years earlier. If the Empire was so oppressive I would think that they might have gathered more support by then.

The fact that entire planets and their colonies pledged themselves to the rebellions cause (Mon Calamari, Sullust) at risk of their complete destruction suggest that a whole lot more than just a handful of senators wanted the Empire gone.

Quadlok · Post by **Quadlok** » 2005-07-19 07:40pm

I'm not seeing people arguing that that the Empire wasn't evil, am I? Please tell me thats not what I'm seeing. Seriously, its a pretty damned major plot point that its evil.

And so what if the Empire's anti-alien bias is mainly an EU creation, with only a couple bits of the movies backing it up? It sure as hell isn't contradicted, and thats the test as to whether or not its excluded, not whether you don't like it.

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-07-19 09:22pm

I never liked that scene and I was glad it got dropped. How could she be sitting there meditating, getting in touch with the Force, when the Jedi Temple was literally dying all around her?

That's really stupid. I heard it was shot, but I didn't know what they shot- I assumed that, you know, they fought.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2005-07-19 09:25pm

Xero Cool Down wrote:The only difference I see between the Old Republic and the Empire is that the Old Republic was so politically corrupt and militarily impotent that it couldn't even keep its own member worlds from being forcibly taken over by a corporation, while the Empire had an absolute intolerance for any rebellion against authority, a reasonable response considering the destruction caused by the Clone Wars. Also, considering that thousands of worlds went over to the CIS due to the corruption of the Old Republic and the way that the senators welcomed a leader like Palpatine I'd say that they judged that losing a few freedoms was better than having the old government in power.

Yes, while those are the sentiments that the populace would have had, make no mistake: Palpatine merely used those sentiments so that he could wrest more and more power into his grasp for his designs.. designs which remain no less nefarious.

On the anti-alien thing.. despite the fact that the films don't override the idea of a human supremacist Empire, I don't think the Empire had a bias toward non-humans. The specieist Empire is a brain-bug of sorts, perhaps.. as though it wasn't evil enough, the EU had to throw race supremacy in just in case you didn't hate the Empire yet.

Even without it, the Empire is no less evil; it had its fingers in plenty of other really bad mean stuff anyway.

Regardless of how many of us agree with the idea and how many don't, can anyone pinpoint where the idea originated, anyway?