Christian Answers That Don't Make Sense #1

Magnetic · Post by **Magnetic** » 2005-07-19 02:27pm

Non-Christian asks, "If God knows before He creates them which people will go to heaven and which ones will go to hell, why would He not, therefore, only create those who will go to Heaven? Otherwise, He is creating people with the full knowledge that they will spend eternity in hell."

Christian answers, "So what if God did? Let's start there. Becasue you know, Paul does address this specifically. Paul ends up basically saying, you don't like it, tough, you are nobody to question God. Now no point in pretending this isn't a difficult thing to take or understand, and yes, to even like at all. I mean, you're right, this is a stickler for us. But it's God's game and we play it like it or not. God set it up His way and runs it His way and we are caught in the middle of it all - God and sat*n battling it out. It's a tough spot to be sure."

[/b]A response from a Christian, "Yes. God being omniscent, and knowing all things from beginning to the end, knew that satan as well as man would rebel against Him. God had already made provision for this as we are told that Jesus was the Lamb slain before/from the foundation of the world (1 Pet 1:20, Rev 13:8), even before sin entered. God allowed sin to enter to magnify His own glory by the offering of His Son as a sacrifice for sin.

As strange as it sounds to us, God's plan of redemption was all about bringing greater glory and honour to Himself. It is God's way of showing angels and humans just how great a God He is. The entry of sin gave God the perfect opportunity to show us how great and boundless His love, mercy and grace really are. God can use sin and evil beings for His glory and the Bible is full of examples of this. One that springs to mind is Pharoah - God said of this wicked ruler, "But indeed for this purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." (Exd 9:16, Rom 9:17). "

The Non-Christian replies, "That sounds pretty horrible. You're saying God created people - knowing many would be damned eternally - just to bring more glory to Himself?"

A Christian responds, "Yes He made man with the ability to choose to obey or rebel. God offers salvation to all, but the sad truth is that all do not want to be saved. We love our sin more than we love God (John 3:19). God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked but rather wishes that all repent so that they might not perish (Ezek 33:11, 2 Pet 3:9). The fact is that if it were not for the grace, love and mercy of God none would be saved, not one. God is not stopping you from coming to Him for salvation, you simply choose not to believe, not to repent nor turn to Him for salvation.

As has been previously pointed out, God is totally sovereign over His creation and He can do with it as He pleases. I know you will not find much comfort in this answer, but that is the simple truth of the matter. God could have never made us to start with, or He could of simply sent everyone to hell because we certainly deserve it. We should not question the divine purposes and plans of God and say "Why have you made me like this?" Paul says "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?" You can question the "manifold wisdom" of God all you like but it doesn't change the fact that God made you in His image to enjoy perfect fellowship with Him but your sin has separated you from your God. The question you should be asking is "What must I do to be saved?" I think you have been around here long enough to know what you need to do. The ball's in your court. What are you going to do about it?"

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Well, so ends the first exchange. This was from another person that came onto the board questioning not God really, but the Bible itself as the true source of God's character. [/i]

Steven Snyder · Post by **Steven Snyder** » 2005-07-19 02:43pm

His "Glory"

As if the act of creating the UNIVERSE, wasn't an act of incomprehensible glory that everything else pales in comparison to, he needs to increase it? For who? His followers already view him as the most glorious thing that ever was, is there some God Club that he must compete with in a deistic pissing contest?

...

Guardsman Bass · Post by **Guardsman Bass** » 2005-07-19 02:45pm

Ah, the Job Debacle replayed all over again; Man questions God as to why God makes men to suffer, God (or God's "representative") tells man to shut up.

Ask him how he knows that he isn't one of the damned, especially if God already knows who is going to hell and who isn't.

Superboy · Post by **Superboy** » 2005-07-19 02:45pm

you simply choose not to believe

Though there were a lot of problems with the christians answers, this one stuck out for me. Christians seem to think that a person can choose what to believe, when in reality it's completely beyond a persons control. I can no more choose to be a christian than I can choose to believe in unicorns.

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2005-07-19 02:46pm

Christian: God gave man Free Will to choose

me: But isn't he Omnipotent? So he'll know how we'll decide before we do?

CHristian: well... yes... but we're still free to chose.

SVPD · Post by **SVPD** » 2005-07-19 02:56pm

Christian: God gave man Free Will to choose

me: But isn't he Omnipotent? So he'll know how we'll decide before we do?

CHristian: well... yes... but we're still free to chose.

Nitpick.. It's omniscient, not omnipotent.

The whole "free will" thing comes from God choosing not to decide for us.. He knows what we will decide, but He doesn't decide for us.

Paradox? Yes. But like I said in another thread, it's not supposed to be logical, it's supposed to be accepted on faith. Picking it apart is like going hunting for dairy cattle; there's really no point in it, since it's already illogical, and christians should (if they're honest) admit that.

Civil War Man · Post by **Civil War Man** » 2005-07-19 02:58pm

Try saying this to a hardline Christian: "My God has enough confidence that I don't have to keep complimenting him all the time. It's great. It's a lot less stressful to follow a deity that doesn't throw a tantrum whenever he's not treated like a spoiled child actor."

Go on, tell them. They love hearing people say things like that.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-07-19 03:08pm

Civil War Man wrote:Try saying this to a hardline Christian: "My God has enough confidence that I don't have to keep complimenting him all the time. It's great. It's a lot less stressful to follow a deity that doesn't throw a tantrum whenever he's not treated like a spoiled child actor."

Go on, tell them. They love hearing people say things like that.

There's a faster one.

'Why should we fear a God whose merciful and loving?'

SVPD · Post by **SVPD** » 2005-07-19 03:10pm

'Why should we fear a God whose merciful and loving?'

What it's supposed to mean is that you fear him the way your fear getting introuble with your dad or your teacher, not that you're supposed to be constantly cowering from his wrath.

(A point the fundamentalist "fear God" crowd has an amazing ability to not explain.)

Civil War Man · Post by **Civil War Man** » 2005-07-19 03:12pm

SirNitram wrote:There's a faster one.

'Why should we fear a God whose merciful and loving?'

It's faster, but not necessarily saying the same thing. My statement doesn't really address the contradiction between Loving God and God-fearing. It's more a commentary about how God throws a temper tantrum whenever someone doesn't kiss his ass.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2005-07-19 03:48pm

I just wonder... if God is omnipotent, how come it took six whole days to create the universe? Shouldn't it have taken no time at all? Some omnipotence that is...

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-07-19 03:52pm

I like to ask "if God is omniscient, then why does he get so fucking angry when people do things he doesn't like?" He supposedly knew from the day they were born that they would do it, and he supposedly even made them that way, so what the fuck is there to get angry about? Does a guy who writes a novel get angry and storm out of the theatre when he watches the movie adaptation and the bad guy does all the things he wrote in the novel?

FSTargetDrone · Post by **FSTargetDrone** » 2005-07-19 06:45pm

Darth Wong wrote:I like to ask "if God is omniscient, then why does he get so fucking angry when people do things he doesn't like?" He supposedly knew from the day they were born that they would do it, and he supposedly even made them that way, so what the fuck is there to get angry about? Does a guy who writes a novel get angry and storm out of the theatre when he watches the movie adaptation and the bad guy does all the things he wrote in the novel?

We might further ask what sort of being would even create others it knows will not live up to its expectations, won't worship it, praise it and so forth? For kicks? What is "moral" about that? In any event, what sort of all-knowing, all-powerful being who can supposedly create humans out of dust would even bother with all of this? It could summon life, planets, the universe, out of nothingness, instantly.

Zero · Post by **Zero** » 2005-07-19 06:53pm

FSTargetDrone wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:I like to ask "if God is omniscient, then why does he get so fucking angry when people do things he doesn't like?" He supposedly knew from the day they were born that they would do it, and he supposedly even made them that way, so what the fuck is there to get angry about? Does a guy who writes a novel get angry and storm out of the theatre when he watches the movie adaptation and the bad guy does all the things he wrote in the novel?
We might further ask what sort of being would even create others it knows will not live up to its expectations, won't worship it, praise it and so forth? For kicks? What is "moral" about that? In any event, what sort of all-knowing, all-powerful being who can supposedly create humans out of dust would even bother with all of this? It could summon life, planets, the universe, out of nothingness, instantly.

It's very simple, if you want to use lies and evasions.

God is omniscient, and created all initial conditions, but we still somehow have free will, and we messed it up for ourselves.

Bullshit, but it's the usual evasion.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2005-07-19 08:49pm

"So, your God's merciful, compassionate and loving, eh? Sounds like a pussy to me."-Vin Diesel.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-07-19 08:51pm

SVPD wrote:
'Why should we fear a God whose merciful and loving?'
What it's supposed to mean is that you fear him the way your fear getting introuble with your dad or your teacher, not that you're supposed to be constantly cowering from his wrath.

(A point the fundamentalist "fear God" crowd has an amazing ability to not explain.)

Yes. That's the point, really. We draw the parallel between God and an abusive parent, if his actions in the Bible are literal. This forces a confrontation between 'Bible is inerrant' and 'God is all-loving' in the fundie's mind. Typically, the bible part breaks first. This form of installation of doubt hasn't made any psychotic breaks... Yet.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2005-07-19 08:59pm

God is omniscient, and created all initial conditions, but we still somehow have free will, and we messed it up for ourselves.

So God is an episode of Star Trek!

Nephtys · Post by **Nephtys** » 2005-07-19 11:31pm

"Why does God need a starship?"

Now, replace 'a starship' with 'pawns to impress'.

Ford Prefect · Post by **Ford Prefect** » 2005-07-20 12:25am

You know, if God did exist, I bet he's one sadistic bastard who likes to watch us squirm and make his fundie followers look like idiots.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2005-07-20 12:30am

Let's be honest here; being omniscient and omnipotent can be pretty boring and lonely. Maybe this is how it gets its entertainment.

...actually, the only feeling an omniscient being can feel is boredom, since all other emotions are created by input of new information, and there is no "new" info to god.

Boyish-Tigerlilly · Post by **Boyish-Tigerlilly** » 2005-07-20 12:51am

Yes. That's the point, really. We draw the parallel between God and an abusive parent, if his actions in the Bible are literal. This forces a confrontation between 'Bible is inerrant' and 'God is all-loving' in the fundie's mind. Typically, the bible part breaks first. This form of installation of doubt hasn't made any psychotic breaks... Yet.

WHen I mention this, I usually get the "god is hurting you for your own good" or "god is hurting those who are evil" speech.

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2005-07-20 02:43am

Nephtys wrote:"Why does God need a starship?"

Now, replace 'a starship' with 'pawns to impress'.

or speaking in the case of muslim fundies: pawns to bomb infidels

Striderteen · Post by **Striderteen** » 2005-07-20 02:45am

wolveraptor wrote:Let's be honest here; being omniscient and omnipotent can be pretty boring and lonely. Maybe this is how it gets its entertainment.

We play SimCity, God "plays" SimUniverse.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2005-07-20 07:40am

Magnetic wrote:The fact is that if it were not for the grace, love and mercy of God none would be saved, not one. God is not stopping you from coming to Him for salvation, you simply choose not to believe, not to repent nor turn to Him for salvation.

Try pointing this out to him:

You don't "choose" any such thing. You don't choose not to believe in God any more than you "choose" not to believe in elves. Or Santa Claus. Or the Great Pumpkin. Belief is not an act of will. It's not something you choose to do or not to do. You merely believe or disbelieve based on whether or not your rational mind finds sufficient evidence to support belief in any given concept, or at the very least, no evidence that tends to undermine belief. Remind him that you have encountered any number of rational arguments that tend to cast doubt on the existence of God (I'm sure you don't need me to supply those). Then ask him if he could honestly overcome all his doubts, make the concious choice to believe in, say, Santa Claus, even knowing all we know about what's really at the north pole, the inability of reindeer to become airborne, or of a man to visit millions of homes in a single night, dropping off toys at each, etc.. Ask him if he seriously believes he could simply dismiss all these doubts and choose to believe sincerely.

Then go ahead and point out if God is omniscient, then every outcome is foreordained. Predestined. Logically, it cannot be otherwise. The idea of the omniscience of God was the root of the Calvinist doctrine of predestination -- which recognizes, incidentally, that God more or less arbitrarily made his mind up in advance who would be "saved", and who wouldn't. And that a God who has omnipotence to go along with his omniscience, could choose to order things a different way, but doesn't care to. So he not only arbitrarily, but willfully condemns the greater part of the human race to spend eternity in a torture chamber called hell. The curious thing is that Calvin was not repelled by the monumental injustice of such a scheme, but rather embraced it.

In any case, despite your adversary's attempt to paint a non-believer as a moral defective who "chooses" to disbelieve, and ends up going to hell, as I said, you really don't have a choice. Despite Christian sophistry about having more than one choice you can make (and I hope I have shown that you really don't have much choice at all, for belief is just not as simply as choosing what to believe), God knows which "choice" you will make. He knows it in advance, which means it’s predestined. After all, if God set everything into motion, all of human history up to and around your birth, determining your physical mind and environment and all the many influences that will come to bear on you, then your "choice", is set by factors outside your control. Your mind and surroundings are supposedly part of the divine plan, so the divine plan must be for you to disbelieve, and end up going to hell. This becomes your destiny, and you can’t escape it, and God becomes responsible.

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2005-07-20 07:54am

The gods of the Disc have never bothered much about judging the souls of the dead, and so people only go to hell if that’s where they believe, in their deepest heart, that they deserve to go. Which they won’t do if they don’t know about it. This explains why it is so important to shoot missionaries on sight.

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Christian Answers That Don't Make Sense #1

Christian Answers That Don't Make Sense #1

Re: Christian Answers That Don't Make Sense #1