Questions for the lapsed

SLAM: debunk creationism, pseudoscience, and superstitions. Discuss logic and morality.

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Dooku's Disciple
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Questions for the lapsed

Post by Dooku's Disciple »

1) What religion were you part of before you decided to worship at the altar of reason?

2) What changed your mind?

Both my parents are very involved in the Anglican church, one as an employee and another as an all too regular attendee (this despite the fact that they separated when I was a young 'un and now live in different states). I was baptised, confirmed and even kidded myself that I believed until I was about seventeen. The seeds of doubt were planted when I read the poetry of Sylvia Plath and Gerard Manley Hopkins. That was my earliest inkling that this God business ain't all it's cracked up to be.

The next year I began studying Enlightenment thinking as part of Modern European history. I soon found myself agreeing with Voltaire's idea of "reason not religion". My views have evolved steadily since then and I now regard all belief systems as human attempts to find meaning in a universe where none exists.

Unfortunately the spectre of "the bloody church of England, with its chains of history" still looms large in my life due to heavy family participation on both sides. I'm surrounded by relatives who don't respect my views while still expecting me to honour theirs. Whatever happened to "do unto others"? :roll:

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Post by FSTargetDrone »

I was baptized Catholic into a family of Catholics and went to 8 years of Catholic grade schhol and 4 years of Catholic high school.

I was never particularly religious, though I did believe in God until around the time I left grade school, I'd say. Around the 4th or 5th grade I reasoned that the story of Adam & Eve was nonsense, so it seemed reasonable to my dim little mind that all the rest was nonsensical too.

I also had trouble with the concept of transubstantiation, which is the supposed miracle that takes place during a mass when the bread and wine are literally (and not symbolically or figuratively) changed into the body and blood of Christ, which is then consumed--how cannibalistic, eh? I saw that the eucharistic wafer did not appear to be any different than I had seen before, so I reasoned that it was all bunk.

So what changed my mind was essentially direct observation that I was being told fairy tales. Eventually I decided that if God did indeed exist, it didn't care about me not going to mass, confessing sins and all the rest. So I stopped going. After my graduation mass in high school I have attended exactly 3 masses for various family funerals and one for my sister's wedding. Other than standing or sitting, I do not kneel, sing, or otherwise participate during any mass.
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Post by Tiger Ace »

I started out jewish, though not really religious, I fell away because of the ridiculous bible lessons and Wong's site. Those two together made me question stuff and got me here.
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Post by The Grim Squeaker »

Do you mean being non religious, being an atheist or converting to one of the former?
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Post by Dooku's Disciple »

I mean becoming non-religious or atheist after being brought up in a religious family or environment.

TargetDrone, I've noticed the fairy tale thing too. Many religious people scoff at the myths and legends of other cultures without once considering that what they base their lives around might be more of the same.

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Post by Alyeska »

Science is what did it for me. My parents are Methodists, but they are also firm believers of science and they wanted me to recieve a good education. My dad never had a college degree but he understood its value and he encouraged learning science whenever possible. My mom got her first college degree in chemistry.

Because of this they encouraged me to watch learning shows whenever they were on. I became adicted to science shows on PBS, especialy Nova. I loved the shows on geology. I also watched the Discovery Channel quite frequently (back when they bothered to show science rather then pop culture crap). For much of my early life at this point I was a theistic evolutionist. I understood that people thought Evolution couldn't happen and I argued that it merely was the way God did things. However, after I heard the story of Noah's Ark and watched a pitiful show trying to explain how it happened, things started to unravel quickly. By then I already had a better geological understanding then most average people (I was about 12 at this time). When I saw the claims of water shooting out of the ocean floor through the mid ocean ridges, I laughed out loud. What complete and utter bullshit.

For the next few years my religious beliefs just melted away as I drifted away from religion all together (not that I was a devote believer or that I even enjoyed going to church). When I moved from Alaska to Montana several of the friends I had made had religion as a central part of their lives and that concept just boggled me. I remember thinking what on earth is so important about religion? By the time I was 15 I was an Atheist out of apathy. When I heard more frequently about Christians trying to attack evolution I read up more on science and compared that to Christianity and it struck me that religion as a whole is complete bullshit.

The final point that summed up my deconversion. While riding in a friends car he was playing a tape. It was some religious nutjob talking about this and that. Then he got into faith. This idiot talked about how one needed absolutely no proof in the existance in God, just have faith and thats all it takes. I remember thinking "Try taking that logic to court buddy". I can't put the words the anger and confussion such stupid logic as that brought to my mind. How the fuck can you believe in something when there is absolutely no proof of its existance?

So by the time I was 18 I was a active atheist in my thinking.
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Post by Flagg »

I was Baptised Catholic, and went to Church and Sunday school, but I can't remember ever really buying into it anymore than I did Santa Claus. It was always sort of a suspension of disbelief for me, even when I was only 8 or 9 years old. I'm sure when I was younger than that I bought it all hook line and sinker, but I can't really recall ever being a "true believer" after being in first grade. After that I was just kind of ambivalent about the whole thing, buying into certain eastern faiths without ever really "believing". I think I was 15 when I realized I was an Athiest, but I think I had been one for a few years prior to that without ever recognizing it.
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Post by Perinquus »

FSTargetDrone wrote:I also had trouble with the concept of transubstantiation, which is the supposed miracle that takes place during a mass when the bread and wine are literally (and not symbolically or figuratively) changed into the body and blood of Christ, which is then consumed--how cannibalistic, eh? I saw that the eucharistic wafer did not appear to be any different than I had seen before, so I reasoned that it was all bunk.
It's always struck me as bizarre that the Catholic church has maintained this. I suspect this bit of dogma was laid down in the early years of the Christian church by some of its more fanatical members, who were more disconnected from reality. More sober churchmen would probably never have promoted this idea. This has caused them some degree of difficulty since the beginning. Transubstantiation has always had its doubters. Back in the 12th century, Thomas Becket, the Archbishop of Canterbury (the same one slain by drunken knights who had heard an exasperated Henry II declare [probably rhetorically] "will no one rid me of this troublesome priest?"), used to hurry through this part of the mass, because he was very uncomfortable with the doubts it raised. It is, however, indicative of the effectiveness of Christian indoctrination that for thousands of years, the religion has maintained its position, and kept so many followers, despite this doctrine putting the clear evidence of people's senses so directly at odds with the church's official position, and producing many a doubter thereby.

But back to the topic of this thread...

My father was Catholic, but was lapsed, and in any case, he divorced my mother when I was five. So I was dragged to my mother's Free Will Baptist church every Sunday when I was growing up. Now as I have said elsewhere, Free Will Baptists are fundamentalists and Biblical inerrantists. They believe the KJV Bible is God's word, and is 100% true and accurate from cover to cover. But in high school, I actually went and read it. Now when you are told all your life that this is the only book on earth of which not one word is false or incorrect, and you then find passages in it which contradict each other... well, you've got yourself quite a conundrum haven't you? After all, if the book can't be wrong, in any detail, as the Biblical inerrantists maintain, but it contains two mutually contradictory passages, you find yourself in a kind of Moebius loop. (This always makes me think of the "Star Trek" episode "I Mudd", where they shut Norman down -- Kirk tells him that everything Harry Mudd says is a lie, and Mudd tells him "Now listen to me Norman old boy... I am lying!"). Most FWBs, I can tell you from experience, simply dismiss these contradictions with outright denial, or the most twisted rationalizations you ever saw, or a mixture of both. But the effort to reconcile these contradictions and dispel my doubts led me on a quest for knowledge. The more I read, the more I saw the skeptics had the better argument, and when I got my hands on a copy of Thomas Paine's "The Age of Reason" in college, it delivered the coup de grace to the last, tottering remnant of my religious faith.
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Post by Losonti Tokash »

Now, I was raised as a Southern Baptist and I suppose I bought into it until I was in third grade. For reasons that I won't go into (long, long story) I wasn't in a classroom, but instead they stuck me in the school's library. Much reading on science, mythology, and related topics followed until the seeds of doubt were firmly planted in my mind and left to grow for 5 years or so.

If there was any one thing that finally pushed me over the edge it is likely the time I actually got around to reading the entire Bible. Up until then, I had been discouraged from reading the whole thing as opposed to just the parts the pastor told me I should.
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Post by zippy »

I was born and raised a Catholic.

General apathy is why I consider myself lapsed, although the lack of action over the paedophile issues in Ireland and US led me to be more anti than disinterested, and the arguements I have seen here have given me ammunition to fend off the attempts of my mother to indoctrinate my children. :D
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Post by Faram »

Being a citizen in one of the most secular countrys in the world is a good start.

I got the confirmation when I was ~15 or so but not because I really believed or anything, it was just expected and I did not want to disappoint my grandparents.

After that I did not giver religion much tought, the next time I was in a church was a burial.

After a trauma involving family members and a asshole priest, I thought that HELL no I do not want to have anything to do with this shit and left the church.
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Post by The Spartan »

I was raised a Christian, of no particular denomination.

My deconversion was gradual. It began with trying to reconcile certain inconsistencies, like, for example, people suffering yet god being a caring, loving deity. I eventually moved into a sort of Christian Deism for lack of a better description. But when I found the Annotated Skeptics Bible it was the proverbial straw and I finished deconverting.

I still occasionally flirt with Deism but it's more out of the habit formed by being religious for 20 odd years rather than truly believing.

The hardest part for me to accept was the idea that I would cease to exist. Totally. Forever. But I got over it.
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Re: Questions for the lapsed

Post by General Zod »

Dooku's Disciple wrote:1) What religion were you part of before you decided to worship at the altar of reason?
Officially, Christian. Though I went through a brief 'rebellious teen' phase, and decided to toy around with other religious beliefs, including various Pagan ideologies. Though I never really was all that religious to begin with.
2) What changed your mind?
Simply questioning religion enough and being naturally skeptical about what
I get told. The fact that my most of my immediate family (not barring aunts & uncles) wasn't all that religious was a help.
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Post by Rye »

1) What religion were you part of before you decided to worship at the altar of reason?
Church of England, from the school I went to.
2) What changed your mind?
My parents never said anything about God or whatever, but my school did. I accepted it till age 12 and jsut thought it was all a big charade. Heaven and Hell? Bribery and threat. That's all. Jesus? Why not an alien, or time traveller rather than a godly being? Old Testament? Stories, folklore from bygone eras. After I concluded that Christianity was a sham, I tried dabbling in the occult (and this was long before I even got into metal!) and I found it to be the exact same stuff; you are required to interpret reality as whatever magic you believe in has some sort of effect on it.

So finally, I think of giving God one last go, and start talking with it in my brain, and I ask it if it's just me talking to myself. I seemed to think so, and moved on.
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Post by Alyeska »

Funny how its always education that is the turning point in these events isn't it? Thats part of the reason why religions are so fearful of education, they fear the possibility of loosing their members.
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Post by Rahvin »

I was raised in a few different Protestant denominations (mostly Congregational).

Not sure if I really count, because I still consider myself to be a Deist, but I no longer believe the Bible to be anything more than a really old collection of books.

I started out believing every word was true as a child, but I never once put it above my science classes in school. Religion and science were always separate for me, and I never even thought about any inconsistencies.

My de-conversion started in my early teens. My grandfather was a retired principal of a Christian private school, and in his old age was becoming more fanatical than ever. One year, he started flat-out condemning my cousins and their parents (who literally did everything for him, house repairs, yard work, etc.) to Hell. When we would play DnD or other such fantasy games, he would call them “the Devil’s games.” I never spoke to him again. He died a few years back (I was in the Dallas airport when Colombia blew up on my way to his funeral).

That began my questioning of Christianity. I couldn’t stomach belonging to a religion that based itself on condemnation of others. As I noticed inconsistencies between the Bible and science, I threw out the notion that the Bible was anything more than allegory and symbolism. After visiting Mike Wong’s site, things started to come together for me. I now base my life on logic and reason rather than religious doctrine (I still believe there is a God, but I fully acknowledge that my belief is irrational, and no longer base my morality on a moldy old tome). I think I’m a better, more moral person because of it.

Actually Mike, your site helped me resolve quite a few issues stemming from my gradual disassociation with Christianity. From the posts above, it looks like I’m not alone. You’ve got a hell of a site, Mike. Thanks for all your good work.
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Post by FSTargetDrone »

Alyeska wrote:Funny how its always education that is the turning point in these events isn't it? Thats part of the reason why religions are so fearful of education, they fear the possibility of loosing their members.
Absolutley. In my case (aside from the appalingly inadequate, one day sex ed we had in grade school), the science classes were actually quite broad. Of course, things like grammar and mathematics had the most emphasis.

My high school, run by a bunch of Piarist priests, seemed to have even less emphasis on religion! I only remember one year when we studied the faith, but even that was more about the "historical" events in the bible and not so much preaching. Generally my high school courses went heavy on the math and sciences and I elected to take history and art history courses as much as possible.

I recently looked up my old grade and high school websites, and it's odd to see how much they stress the religious education now. Unless things have drastically changed, and they may well have, my Catholic school experiences weren't all that dogmatic in comparison.

I also was a big watcher of science documentaries, Nova and the like, as well, and that surely had an influence on me losing my religion, I just hadn't thought about it.
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Post by Dooku's Disciple »

Rahvin wrote:I still consider myself to be a Deist
Ditto. I believe in a higher power, but giving it a name and tying all sorts of empty rituals to it is a very silly thing to do.

I also have no problem with the idea that there was once a bloke called Jesus, who made a habit of saying things the establishment didn't like and got killed for his trouble. Fine and dandy, but to insist that his "father" sacrificed him for the sake of all humanity and then brought him back to show that we could all be "saved" is nought but a temendous load of bollocks. To add insult to injury, the story's so full of continuity glitches that Stan Lee wouldn't green-light it :lol:

Having said that, if the J-man *did* come back today and happened to see some of the ridiculous things people do in his name, he'd burst out laughing.

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Post by Civil War Man »

Technically raised a Catholic. My mother does not go to church (I haven't asked her about it, but now she strikes me as quasi-Buddhist). My father is very religious (and seems to lament that I am not), but all in all he's one of those "I don't care what you believe, just don't challenge my faith" kind of Catholics. As a sidenote, he has a fairly low tolerance for what constitutes challenging his faith. He was uncomfortable reading a paper I wrote on Intelligent Design. Not because he believed in Creationism (he doesn't), but because he thought I sounded like an atheist (which, coincidentally, I am).

I never was religious myself. I went to public school, but was also enrolled in CCD (a Catholic education thing, but not regular school). Never really bought the whole thing. Roughly 10 years ago (when I was about 12), I stopped taking communion unless it would be an insult to someone if I didn't (i.e. my confirmation and family funerals). I still sometimes go to church, but it is solely for the benefit of my father. I only go to Christmas, Easter, and the very rare non-holiday mass, but I wouldn't even do that if it weren't for him.
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Post by mr friendly guy »

My parents weren't particularly religious in my early years, or if they were they never indicated to me in the early years (that wasn't to say they didn't irrational beliefs like superstitions). Their extent of their religious inclination was that there was some higher power but they didn't care about the minutae.

By high school I thought there must be some higher power but I was already against organised religion after seeing people hate each other in the name of religion.

By university I had quietly abandoned all pretext of believing in a God of some sort especially in ethics class I found that Christians believed morality was derived solely from God's fiat, in other words it was purely arbitary. To give you an example

Christian friend : Isn't God so nice, he gave us free will. I mean he could have made us slaves.

Me : No, because it would be wrong other wise.

Christian friend : No, God can do ever he wants because he is God.

Me : No, slavery is wrong period, no matter who does it.

friend : I will have to think on that one.

From ethics I had decided that morality was dependent on reason. The final clincher was reading Mike Wong's site (which was quite serendipitous since I was searching for sci fi crossover fan fiction) showing the overwhelming evidence for evolution, and how he took apart the Bible to show how ridiculous it is.

After spending more time here, and reading more letters of the editor, I realised that my live and let live attitude has limited uses because in the real world religious people won't.
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Post by Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi »

I was raised in a Catholic household, but we weren't as strict and devout as everyone else on my father's side of the family, and religion wasn't one of those things I thought (or cared) much for. Because of this, I never doubted my faith, even if I wasn't that devout to begin with. I read a lot of books on natural history and biology, so I believed in the Great Flood being a myth, Biblical errancy, an old earth, and Evolution (although for some reason, thought humans needed some sort of divine intervention). My only memories of Sunday school consisted of playing games, and the religion classes in my Catholic school had almost no lesson plan, so I never had a chance to be indoctrinated. Coming here had a lot to do with losing my faith, since it made me think about it more, and when I thought about it, I realized that I didn't believe in most aspects of the religion to begin with, and my beliefs were closer to deism or agnosticism. Later, I got the other side's rationale on those things I did believe, and that completed the transition.
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Re: Questions for the lapsed

Post by Enforcer Talen »

Dooku's Disciple wrote:1) What religion were you part of before you decided to worship at the altar of reason?

2) What changed your mind?

Both my parents are very involved in the Anglican church, one as an employee and another as an all too regular attendee (this despite the fact that they separated when I was a young 'un and now live in different states). I was baptised, confirmed and even kidded myself that I believed until I was about seventeen. The seeds of doubt were planted when I read the poetry of Sylvia Plath and Gerard Manley Hopkins. That was my earliest inkling that this God business ain't all it's cracked up to be.

The next year I began studying Enlightenment thinking as part of Modern European history. I soon found myself agreeing with Voltaire's idea of "reason not religion". My views have evolved steadily since then and I now regard all belief systems as human attempts to find meaning in a universe where none exists.

Unfortunately the spectre of "the bloody church of England, with its chains of history" still looms large in my life due to heavy family participation on both sides. I'm surrounded by relatives who don't respect my views while still expecting me to honour theirs. Whatever happened to "do unto others"? :roll:

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Post by Techno_Union »

I was baptized Catholic, sent to Sunday school, did Reconciliation and my first communion, and then went to church regularly. Then I came into my own and realized that I was gay, and that I really was never very religous. So I never got confirmed into the Catholic faith and now I am just here -- believing in a God, but not being part of any religion.
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Post by Zero »

I was raised Christian, and might have almost bought into it before my memory started working at age 3, but around that time, I realized that the notion of heaven and hell was inconsistant with my experiences, and asked my mom why the bible must be right, and why earth couldn't have always been here. She got very angry, but gave no real response or answer, so I was a closet atheist until 2 years ago, and now she feels like she's a failure as a parent... it saddens me that she's worried for my soul, actually.

Lately, after some e-mails with a man named John Clayton, I've actually been wondering about my position as an atheist, but that's neither here nor there...
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Post by Captain tycho »

I was raised Catholic, but my family was very open minded (some would say not even true Catholics, since they didn't subscribe to alot of the dogma), plus they actively encouraged me to learn. So, around ten, I had pretty much become agnostic, and by 13 or so, full blow atheist.
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