Eliminate all diversity through genetic manipulation?

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2005-07-20 09:59pm

Through the miracle of hypothetical genetic manipulation, all humans will be of the same race, level of health, intelligence, and appearance. The genetic playing field will be perfectly leveled, no more Star-Bellied Sneetches.

Would you be for it? Why?

If not, why?

(edit) This scenario is for an exploration of people's thoughts on the moral and ethical ramifications, assume medical perfection to exclude any nasty surprises from nature.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2005-07-20 10:02pm

Nah. Best part of life is finding (and arguing) with people different from you.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2005-07-20 10:04pm

No because the lack of genetic diversity will make us susceptible to widespread plagues. Furthermore, if everyone was of the same intellect, people might not be able to solve a conundrum, such as relativity. It might take a special mind to drive scientific advance. With diversity, there's always the off-chance that someone might figure it out. With out, one man's failure is mankind's failure.

Besides, I wouldn't like it very much if men and women looked the same.

Tasoth · Post by **Tasoth** » 2005-07-20 10:07pm

No. We'd be more susceptible to plagues, nor would life be fun anymore. Plus the fact that mutations occur randomly all the time, what happens when a baby is born with a hair/eye color/pigmentation outside the norm?

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2005-07-20 10:12pm

Tasoth wrote:No. We'd be more susceptible to plagues, nor would life be fun anymore. Plus the fact that mutations occur randomly all the time, what happens when a baby is born with a hair/eye color/pigmentation outside the norm?

If there's an active manipulation occuring for each pregnancy, that wouldn't happen.

I think it's fair to assume that in this scenario, people are going to be born geniuses, and medicine is at such a level that plagues will be things of the past, or easily contained.

GrandMasterTerwynn · Post by **GrandMasterTerwynn** » 2005-07-20 10:14pm

Frank Hipper wrote:Through the miracle of hypothetical genetic manipulation, all humans will be of the same race, level of health, intelligence, and appearance. The genetic playing field will be perfectly leveled, no more Star-Bellied Sneetches.

Would you be for it? Why?

If not, why?

Hmm, no. It would likely turn out that the next day, some new virus will break out in Outer Assjackistan. And since you've just made everyone uniform, everyone will be uniformly susceptible, and this virus outbreak will turn into an epidemic and turn into a pandemic, and will end up being very, very messy.

Junghalli · Post by **Junghalli** » 2005-07-20 10:23pm

No. For one thing I find the philosophy of solving disputes by making everyone the same to be highly questionable. It's the same basic idea that motivated the Nazis and similar movements: the idea that people who are different from one another fundamentally cannot coexist and the only way to achieve peace is to make everyone the same. Albeit it is much less repugnant than their ways of going about it, and it would destroy all diversity equally instead of trying to remake the whole world in the image of one particular group, but still...
Also, giving everyone the same personality and intellect level is... a disturbing idea IMO. I can't help imagining that it'll destroy untold potentials for human creativity and inventiveness.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2005-07-20 10:28pm

GrandMasterTerwynn wrote:
Frank Hipper wrote:Through the miracle of hypothetical genetic manipulation, all humans will be of the same race, level of health, intelligence, and appearance. The genetic playing field will be perfectly leveled, no more Star-Bellied Sneetches.

Would you be for it? Why?

If not, why?
Hmm, no. It would likely turn out that the next day, some new virus will break out in Outer Assjackistan. And since you've just made everyone uniform, everyone will be uniformly susceptible, and this virus outbreak will turn into an epidemic and turn into a pandemic, and will end up being very, very messy.

OP has been edited.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-07-20 10:37pm

Junghalli wrote:I can't help imagining that it'll destroy untold potentials for human creativity and inventiveness.

Are you seriously suggesting that high intelligence tends to impede "creativity and inventiveness"?

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-07-20 10:41pm

What do you mean about everyone being the same appearance? Clones? Or just "perfect" facial features, but with lots of variation?

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2005-07-20 10:45pm

Vympel wrote:What do you mean about everyone being the same appearance? Clones? Or just "perfect" facial features, but with lots of variation?

Not clones, just no gross variations; no huge noses and receding chins, for example. Or, everyone having huge noses and receding chins...

Think of everyone looking enough alike to have a family resemblance.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-07-20 10:45pm

Interestingly, he only says that everyone is at the same level. He doesn't say what this level is. For all we know, it might mean that everyone is reduced to the intelligence of a chimp, and we all look like brain-damaged dwarves.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2005-07-20 10:51pm

Darth Wong wrote:Interestingly, he only says that everyone is at the same level. He doesn't say what this level is. For all we know, it might mean that everyone is reduced to the intelligence of a chimp, and we all look like brain-damaged dwarves.

There'd have to be some percieved benefit in doing this; I made the OP as vague as possible so as to limit dictating any of my own preconceptions, and seeing where other people's would come into play.

Xero Cool Down · Post by **Xero Cool Down** » 2005-07-20 10:52pm

Frank Hipper wrote:
Vympel wrote:What do you mean about everyone being the same appearance? Clones? Or just "perfect" facial features, but with lots of variation?
Not clones, just no gross variations; no huge noses and receding chins, for example. Or, everyone having huge noses and receding chins...

Think of everyone looking enough alike to have a family resemblance.

How completely and utterly boring.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-07-20 10:53pm

Xero Cool Down wrote:
Frank Hipper wrote:
Vympel wrote:What do you mean about everyone being the same appearance? Clones? Or just "perfect" facial features, but with lots of variation?
Not clones, just no gross variations; no huge noses and receding chins, for example. Or, everyone having huge noses and receding chins...

Think of everyone looking enough alike to have a family resemblance.
How completely and utterly boring.

I imagine the parents of children with horrible genetic defects wouldn't mind that kind of boredom.

Junghalli · Post by **Junghalli** » 2005-07-20 10:56pm

Frank Hipper wrote:I made the OP as vague as possible so as to limit dictating any of my own preconceptions, and seeing where other people's would come into play.

Well, from the OP I thought you meant just lopping off both sides of the standard deviation: no idiots, no geniuses, everyone is made average.

Civil War Man · Post by **Civil War Man** » 2005-07-20 10:56pm

Frank Hipper wrote:Through the miracle of hypothetical genetic manipulation, all humans will be of the same race, level of health, intelligence, and appearance.

<snip>

...assume medical perfection to exclude any nasty surprises from nature.

Bad idea. Even assuming no plagues, such uniformity is a nightmare from a sociological standpoint. What characteristics make the cut?

1) How will they determine the "perfect" level of intelligence? When it comes to being idiots, smart people are some of the worst offenders. In the words of Michael Shermer (editor of "Skeptic" magazine), "Smart people are good at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." You won't be able to make it so no one is a YEC, for example.

2) What racial characteristics will be chosen? I'm assuming this gene manipulation thing is shooting for "perfection" in all categories, but frankly attractiveness is insanely subjective. Depending on the person it could be anything from an Aryan wet dream to a mix of all races on the planet. Someone is going to have to make the decision about how all humans are going to look, and their decision is going to be based off of what they find attractive, which probably differs from what you would find attractive.

3) Going on the end statement of item 1, you can not enforce certain things, such as behavior, through gene manipulation. You might be able to program certain tendencies, but in the end much of what a person does will result from their upbringing, which will be different for everyone unless this hypothetical situation also includes baby farms.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2005-07-20 10:56pm

wolveraptor wrote:No because the lack of genetic diversity will make us susceptible to widespread plagues.

Actually, the negative results of inbreeding come from the increased probability of reinforcing harmful recessive genes. Theoretically, if you started with a breeding stock of extremely good genetic material, with the potentially harmful recessives already bred or engineered out, there would be relatively few, if any, unpleasant side effects.

The world would still be a mighty boring place if everyone were the same though, not to mention stagnant culturally and scientifically.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-07-20 10:58pm

Perinquus wrote:
wolveraptor wrote:No because the lack of genetic diversity will make us susceptible to widespread plagues.
Actually, the negative results of inbreeding come from the increased probability of reinforcing harmful recessive genes. Theoretically, if you started with a breeding stock of extremely good genetic material, with the potentially harmful recessives already bred or engineered out, there would be relatively few, if any, unpleasant side effects.

Incorrect. Inherited recessive gene traits are caused by inbreeding but monoculture plague susceptibility is a completely separate problem.

The world would still be a mighty boring place if everyone were the same though, not to mention stagnant culturally and scientifically.

Please explain how a world of uniformly high-IQ people would result in cultural and scientific stagnation.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2005-07-20 11:01pm

Even if everyone had high intelligence, they'd still all think the same way (since they're all apparently the same). That'd be bad for all creative and many scientific endeavors. Also, marital ties would mean less, as your spouse would be the same as every other person's spouse, and you'd have no reason to love her/him more than any other person.

Now, if everyone looked the same, but had unique minds, then I'd oppose it less (especially since plague has been excluded). Still, sex would be a bit boring, since it'd be a similar experience each time. And what if I did not like the "model" used for humanity?

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2005-07-20 11:06pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Perinquus wrote:
wolveraptor wrote:No because the lack of genetic diversity will make us susceptible to widespread plagues.
Actually, the negative results of inbreeding come from the increased probability of reinforcing harmful recessive genes. Theoretically, if you started with a breeding stock of extremely good genetic material, with the potentially harmful recessives already bred or engineered out, there would be relatively few, if any, unpleasant side effects.
Incorrect. Inherited recessive gene traits are caused by inbreeding but monoculture plague susceptibility is a completely separate problem.

I stand corrected. Heritable defects, including sucsceptibility to some chronic disorders, would not be a problem then, but susceptibility to external diseases might be.

Darth Wong wrote:
The world would still be a mighty boring place if everyone were the same though, not to mention stagnant culturally and scientifically.
Please explain how a world of uniformly high-IQ people would result in cultural and scientific stagnation.

Well, it depends on how far we are taking the lack of diversity. If it is merely lack of genetic diversity so that people are basically similar, but there is still some variation, the problem will possibly not be very bad. Human intelligence, culture, ideals, attitudes, etc. are a lot more complex than what's in one's DNA. If we are talking about genetic diversity so stifled that all people are virtually clones of the same archetype, I doubt you will see all that much variation in thought patterns. There will be some, as the various clones would be differentiated at least to a degree by their various experiences, but a whole species of genetic copies would probably not vary but so much intellectually, no matter what their various upbringings were. And if everyone is thinking alike, you will get stagnation.

Civil War Man · Post by **Civil War Man** » 2005-07-20 11:08pm

wolveraptor wrote:Even if everyone had high intelligence, they'd still all think the same way (since they're all apparently the same).

Incorrect. Belief is also largely a part of two things: upbringing (which will not be the same for everyone in a normal society, and will be difficult even for an Orwellian one) and experience (which absolutely will not be the same for everyone).

Also, marital ties would mean less, as your spouse would be the same as every other person's spouse, and you'd have no reason to love her/him more than any other person.

Gee, I don't know...how about their personality, which will be different due to my previous comment?

And what if I did not like the "model" used for humanity?

That's my biggest problem with this hypothetical scenario, because someone has to determine the conditions of the new Human species.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2005-07-20 11:26pm

Conceded. Still, I oppose the whole procedure because it'd be a collossal waste of time, and it'd be boring with everyone looking the same (though I wouldn't mind a world of high-IQ people).

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-07-20 11:34pm

Perinquus wrote:Well, it depends on how far we are taking the lack of diversity. If it is merely lack of genetic diversity so that people are basically similar, but there is still some variation, the problem will possibly not be very bad. Human intelligence, culture, ideals, attitudes, etc. are a lot more complex than what's in one's DNA. If we are talking about genetic diversity so stifled that all people are virtually clones of the same archetype, I doubt you will see all that much variation in thought patterns. There will be some, as the various clones would be differentiated at least to a degree by their various experiences, but a whole species of genetic copies would probably not vary but so much intellectually, no matter what their various upbringings were. And if everyone is thinking alike, you will get stagnation.

Such extreme similarity would limit cultural diversity (which is almost a tautology: lack of diversity will create lack of diversity), but I still see no evidence whatsoever for the cessation of scientific progress that you speak of. Are you seriously suggesting that a society filled with Einsteins would be scientifically useless?

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2005-07-20 11:37pm

Perinquus wrote:The world would still be a mighty boring place if everyone were the same though, not to mention stagnant culturally and scientifically.

Ancient Egypt was probably the most conservative, stable, and culturally stagnant civilisation to have ever existed.
It was also the most long-lived, and arguably the most successful.
China also exhibits these traits.

Where's the negative in stagnation if there's no external cultures/civilisations to be a threat?

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