Is Islam really at fault?

[Surlethe]

One needs only to take a look at Europe during the Dark Ages and read the histories of the Church suppressing scientific advances to realize this.

Islam is almost exactly as old as Christianity was during the Dark Ages. Might that have something to do with Dark Age-ish Middle Eastern conditions?

[Son of the Suns]

One needs only to take a look at Europe during the Dark Ages and read the histories of the Church suppressing scientific advances to realize this.

Islam is almost exactly as old as Christianity was during the Dark Ages. Might that have something to do with Dark Age-ish Middle Eastern conditions?

Islam wasn't started till the beginning of the 7th century A.D.

[TimothyC]

One needs only to take a look at Europe during the Dark Ages and read the histories of the Church suppressing scientific advances to realize this.

Islam is almost exactly as old as Christianity was during the Dark Ages. Might that have something to do with Dark Age-ish Middle Eastern conditions?

(Emphasis Mine)

Islam wasn't started till the beginning of the 7th century A.D.

And life in Europe wasn't a walk in the park in the 1300's, although it was starting to get better. So we'll have to see where it goes from here.

[wolveraptor]

I'm aware that there are authoritarian governments. However the vast majority of governments in the Middle East are composed of religious leaders/governmental systems. Guess where that leaves us again?

Well, Iraq wasn't a theocracy, nor is Saudi Arabia or the the old Taliban (though they undoubtedly had certain Islamic laws in place, such as the covering of females). I dispute the notion that most Middle Eastern countries are theocracies. True they may have leaders who are Islamic, but they are not based solely on Islam.

[Axis Kast]

Have we ever had to worry about Radical Buddhists or Shinto groups?

Technically, Aum Shinrikyo claimed a philosophy that derived from Buddhist teachings.


In response to the original question, I don’t think that Islamic teaching is the sole source of our troubles with violent Muslim extremists throughout the world today. As others have pointed out, the Dark Ages produced a similar culture of violence and exclusion on the European continent.

[TimothyC]

I'm aware that there are authoritarian governments. However the vast majority of governments in the Middle East are composed of religious leaders/governmental systems. Guess where that leaves us again?

Well, Iraq wasn't a theocracy, nor is Saudi Arabia or the the old Taliban (though they undoubtedly had certain Islamic laws in place, such as the covering of females). I dispute the notion that most Middle Eastern countries are theocracies. True they may have leaders who are Islamic, but they are not based solely on Islam.

Bull Shit. How is having laws expressly stating that Islamic Laws are the law of the land NOT theocratic. I guess under your interpretation of the geo-political situation Iran isn't theocratic either?

[wolveraptor]

What I was trying to say is that there's a difference between having Muslims in your government and having that affect their decisions, and having a government based directly on the Koran.

[PainRack]

Well that was sure a nice piece of selective bullshit. The guy takes his conclusion, and fits the evidence to support his case. He uses the IRA as an example of a Christian group that doesn't use suicide violence, and then casually dismisses them. He points out two non-Islamic examples, but provides minimal evidence to support his position. The fact is, nearly every non-Islamic terror group, and many Islamic terror groups, prefer not to kill themselves to achieve their goals.

The fact of the matter is, Islam IS the driving force behind suicide terrorism. Whether they were the first or not is irrelevant - they are the most numerous suicide bombers worldwide, having conducted thousands of suicide attacks. There is no argument that suicide terror is not unique to Islam (see the kamikaze of WWII), but it has clearly become widely accepted by Muslims who have used the Koran to justify their attacks.

There's a problem in saying that. The Palestinians sucide bombings as well as the Tamil Tigers don't have a religious inspiration, but a political one.

Unless you included religious fanatics willing to die for their cause , such as foreign jihadis willing to fight obscenely superior US forces and die in place rather than retreat.

[Surlethe]

One needs only to take a look at Europe during the Dark Ages and read the histories of the Church suppressing scientific advances to realize this.

Islam is almost exactly as old as Christianity was during the Dark Ages. Might that have something to do with Dark Age-ish Middle Eastern conditions?

Islam wasn't started till the beginning of the 7th century A.D.

Islam was started around 600. That makes it about 1400 years old. When Christianity was 1400 years old, Europe was nearing the end of the Dark Ages, going through lots of religious turmoil, the Reformation, etc. Might that have something to do with the fact the current Middle East is reminiscent of Dark Ages Europe? Could Christianity and Islam actually follow the same basic sociological path?

[Big Phil]

Well that was sure a nice piece of selective bullshit. The guy takes his conclusion, and fits the evidence to support his case. He uses the IRA as an example of a Christian group that doesn't use suicide violence, and then casually dismisses them. He points out two non-Islamic examples, but provides minimal evidence to support his position. The fact is, nearly every non-Islamic terror group, and many Islamic terror groups, prefer not to kill themselves to achieve their goals.

The fact of the matter is, Islam IS the driving force behind suicide terrorism. Whether they were the first or not is irrelevant - they are the most numerous suicide bombers worldwide, having conducted thousands of suicide attacks. There is no argument that suicide terror is not unique to Islam (see the kamikaze of WWII), but it has clearly become widely accepted by Muslims who have used the Koran to justify their attacks.

There's a problem in saying that. The Palestinians sucide bombings as well as the Tamil Tigers don't have a religious inspiration, but a political one.

Unless you included religious fanatics willing to die for their cause , such as foreign jihadis willing to fight obscenely superior US forces and die in place rather than retreat.

Palestinian suicide bombers, however, justify their attacks using religion.

[Axis Kast]

Islam was started around 600. That makes it about 1400 years old. When Christianity was 1400 years old, Europe was nearing the end of the Dark Ages, going through lots of religious turmoil, the Reformation, etc. Might that have something to do with the fact the current Middle East is reminiscent of Dark Ages Europe? Could Christianity and Islam actually follow the same basic sociological path?

I think that's what a few of us have been suggesting.

Given the overall living conditions in the Middle East today, the presence of religious divides only hurts.

Palestinian suicide bombers, however, justify their attacks using religion.

Do you mean to suggest that, without the religious aspect, the Palestinians would not have resorted to suicide bombings?

[General Zod]

Do you mean to suggest that, without the religious aspect, the Palestinians would not have resorted to suicide bombings?

Care to provide examples of other people blowing themselves up without religious motivation or being otherwise certifiably insane?

[wolveraptor]

Well it makes less sense for someone who believes in no afterlife to give up their life for land. After all, don't you want to be alive to live in the land you tried to kick the invader's out of? On the other hand, soldiers are supposed to be willing to give up their lives for their countries', but suicide bombing is completely different, in that you know you're going to die.

[GeneralTacticus]

Do you mean to suggest that, without the religious aspect, the Palestinians would not have resorted to suicide bombings?

Care to provide examples of other people blowing themselves up without religious motivation or being otherwise certifiably insane?

The previously-mentioned Tamil Tigers?

[PainRack]

Care to provide examples of other people blowing themselves up without religious motivation or being otherwise certifiably insane?

Tamil tigers, as well as Chinese students burning themselves to death to protest against the Japanese invasion of China back in 1931.

[tharkûn]

Does Islam get twisted like this because of outside influences like rampant poverty and dictatorships?

The dominant flavor of Islam among the terrorists is Wahabism which was founded in the mid 18th century. The movement was centered in Arabia and Iraq which were neither cripplingly poor nor under dictatorships (the Ottoman Sultanate had numerous social institutions acting to limiting autocracy).

Frankly the idea that the twistings of Islam happened in response to Israel and the West is BS. If anyone is responsible it would be the "un-Islamic" court of the Ottoman Sultan and to a far lesser extent the Islamic courts of the east and in Africa. At that period in time the biggest problem the West caused was that it was prophesized that Muslims should be winning, rather than being the weak man of Europe and being slowly driven back. The explanation that evolved was no surprise - rather than blaming geography, incompotent leadership (the Ottoman Sultan was nominally the Kalipha), the backwardness of the Ottoman armies/economy, etc. the losses were blamed on the Muslim population not being obedient enough to Allah. This sparked a movement that emphasized the willingness of the individual to submit to Allah, and further to religious leaders. Part of this also included being to accomodating to non-Muslims and other fun issues of tolerance.

Can we not say that Religion in general has always been a ready made source for wanton slaughter of innocents and Islam is merely the cause celeb of this century?

People will do things in the name of religion (or even just broad ideology) that they would never conceive of doing otherwise. The current flavor of Islam causing today's troubles is mostly an Islamic philosophy that exists because they have been habitual losers since they failed to take Vienna. It long predates Israel, Jewish immigration, oil, or the West giving a damn about all that sand.