Israeli Army Kills Palestinian Boy

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-11-25 09:44am

MKSheppard wrote:
If they want an Arab ruled palestine, they can go to JORDAN....except
Jordan does not want these fucktards in their territory. Wherever Palestinians
go, there is always violence...

I am reminded of those photos of Tripoli, Libya burning after fighting
erupted between the PLO's various factions....

I'd like to see how you'd like it if some foreign government somewhere decided that you didn't deserve your own land, kicked you off it, put some other people on it, and they told you that if you didn't like it, you could move to the next state.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2002-11-25 09:44am

Vympel wrote: Kosovo was a dirty little civil war where narco-terrorists tried to violate the undisputed national sovereignty of Serbia and secede. They were promptly crushed by the Serbs. The reasons for NATO's intervention are unknown- but it certainly wasn't ethnic cleansing. NATO lied through their teeth repeatedly, claiming massive expulsions and 100,000 people dead

Don't you mean Bill Clinton lied repeatedly? He did that on his own, the
worthless fucktard. Probably the only time I've ever been ashamed to
be an american, was when we started bombing Serbia for having the GALL
to deal with the kind of fucktards who repaid our saving their asses
by driving planes into the WTC on 9/11

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-11-25 09:45am

MKSheppard wrote:
Don't you mean Bill Clinton lied repeatedly? He did that on his own, the
worthless fucktard.

No he didn't. NATO spokesman routinely got up there and overstated the violence and claiming genocide. It was the USA administration and the UK primarily. Other NATO members, for example Greece, protested it strongly.

EDIT: I mean Clinton did lie, but so did the entire NATO powerful countries bloc.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2002-11-25 09:48am

Vympel wrote: No he didn't. NATO spokesman routinely got up there and overstated the violence and claiming genocide.

And where did he get his marching orders from? Oh, from the USA and
from it's president....

Sort of like how that FUcktard told us that our troops would only be temporaorily in Bosnia, and that they'd be back by christmas...what is
it now...the 5th or 6th year in that shithole?

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-11-25 09:48am

Right or wrong, what the hell do you expect when you throw rocks at armed soldiers?

I'm sickened by both sides. Both are far to willing to kill innocents indiscrimantely. They've both killed, maimed and brutalized each. As far as I'm concerned both sides have equally blood stained hands and neither have any sort of moral high ground. A pox oon both of their houses.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2002-11-25 09:49am

Vympel wrote: I'd like to see how you'd like it if some foreign government somewhere decided that you didn't deserve your own land, kicked you off it, put some other people on it, and they told you that if you didn't like it, you could move to the next state.

Actually, the UN set up a partition plan that split Palestine evenly between
the Jews and Arabs....except the Arabs said "No" and tried to drive the
ISraelis into the sea as a giant gamble to win ALL of Palestine...

So don't come crying to me that they've been oppressed....they gambled
big back in 1948 and LOST.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-11-25 09:52am

MKSheppard wrote:
Vympel wrote: No he didn't. NATO spokesman routinely got up there and overstated the violence and claiming genocide.
And where did he get his marching orders from? Oh, from the USA and
from it's president....

Sort of like how that FUcktard told us that our troops would only be temporaorily in Bosnia, and that they'd be back by christmas...what is
it now...the 5th or 6th year in that shithole?

I agree wholeheartedly.

But, neither side in the Israeli conflict has clean hands, and quite frankly Palestinian behavior is absolutely disgusting.

Actually, the UN set up a partition plan that split Palestine evenly between
the Jews and Arabs....except the Arabs said "No" and tried to drive the
ISraelis into the sea as a giant gamble to win ALL of Palestine...

So don't come crying to me that they've been oppressed....they gambled
big back in 1948 and LOST.

Evidence for this 50/50 thing? See Mike's page. The partitioning was not just or equitable. And I'd also like to know why there should be a split in the first place.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2002-11-25 02:35pm

Stormbringer wrote:Right or wrong, what the hell do you expect when you throw rocks at armed soldiers?

I'm sickened by both sides. Both are far to willing to kill innocents indiscrimantely. They've both killed, maimed and brutalized each. As far as I'm concerned both sides have equally blood stained hands and neither have any sort of moral high ground. A pox oon both of their houses.

Here is an assignment: Find the ROE for the Israeli soldiers. ROE determines which COA to take in a given situation. It may be that the ROE were followed to the letter. However, if they were not, that too could be determined, and the appropriate disciplinary measures carried out. Either way, it is difficult to tell an armed soldier not to open fire on a hostile crowd throwing projectiles at them. If you've ever had rocks and stones thrown at you, it is not a pleasant experience and comes off as quite threatening....

Post by **Beowulf** » 2002-11-25 02:36pm

verilon wrote:Hey, warning first, real shot later, but only enough to injure, at that. Continue, take out the other arm. If it somehow happen again, kill them.

Your assuming that the soldiers could shoot a heck of a lot better than is realistic. Sure, they might fire a warning shot first, but after that, your average soldier isn't going to be good enough to hit a target the size of an arm on purpose. There is a reason why soldiers train to shoot for either the center of mass or the head. Shooting to kill is a heckuva lot easier than tring to wound someone in a specific area. Methinks you have been watching too many action movies where the hero shoots the gun out of someone's hand...

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2002-11-25 02:49pm

Beowulf wrote:
verilon wrote:Hey, warning first, real shot later, but only enough to injure, at that. Continue, take out the other arm. If it somehow happen again, kill them.
Your assuming that the soldiers could shoot a heck of a lot better than is realistic. Sure, they might fire a warning shot first, but after that, your average soldier isn't going to be good enough to hit a target the size of an arm on purpose. There is a reason why soldiers train to shoot for either the center of mass or the head. Shooting to kill is a heckuva lot easier than tring to wound someone in a specific area. Methinks you have been watching too many action movies where the hero shoots the gun out of someone's hand...

I think they should have tried a warning shot first. If the crowd didn't disperse try, try to wound. If they still didn't disperse or if they felt their lives were in danger, then they should shoot to kill.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2002-11-25 03:38pm

neoolong wrote:I think they should have tried a warning shot first. If the crowd didn't disperse try, try to wound. If they still didn't disperse or if they felt their lives were in danger, then they should shoot to kill.

Not listening are you? Soldiers are trained to kill, not wound. And they did feel their lives were in danger, and rightfully so, or did you not read the part in the article where they found 2 bombs in what was thrown at them?

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2002-11-25 03:44pm

Firehoses, tear gases, rubber bullets and riot shields are apparently lost concepts to the Israelis...

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-11-25 05:06pm

Cyril wrote:Firehoses, tear gases, rubber bullets and riot shields are apparently lost concepts to the Israelis...

Which is why they make massive use of them..

If you attack people with weapons expect to be shot.

Oberleutnant · Post by **Oberleutnant** » 2002-11-25 05:33pm

Like Sea Skimmer said, most Israeli security troops use rubber bullets as ammunition when they patrol in the occupied areas. However, from what I've heard, a rubber bullet sounds helluva nicer weapon than it really is. They can easily shatter bone and even kill an adult from a headshot.

The whole middle east is one fucked up place where no one is innocent. Still, IMO Israel should act like a western real nation they claim to be and refraim themselves from useless violence. You can't expect the same from the Palestinians, because their "nation" is hardly a 50 year old stable democracy.

Firing 120mm Sabot rounds to Palestinian villages and bulldozing their police stations don't seem to me the real way to fight terrorisim.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-11-25 05:51pm

Oberleutnant wrote:Like Sea Skimmer said, most Israeli security troops use rubber bullets as ammunition when they patrol in the occupied areas. However, from what I've heard, a rubber bullet sounds helluva nicer weapon than it really is. They can easily shatter bone and even kill an adult from a headshot.

The whole middle east is one fucked up place where no one is innocent. Still, IMO Israel should act like a western real nation they claim to be and refraim themselves from useless violence. You can't expect the same from the Palestinians, because their "nation" is hardly a 50 year old stable democracy.

Firing 120mm Sabot rounds to Palestinian villages and bulldozing their police stations don't seem to me the real way to fight terrorisim.

Except this isn't just a campaign against bombers and lone gunmen. Israel is often fighting significant sized armed militias. At that point it’s a conventional battle and the IDF is already showing a dam lot of restraint in never using its artillery and never using unguided aerial weapons. Because they did and still do that quite a few have there soldiers have died when a less restrained use of firepower would have saved them. Jennie is a good example of this, they lost more then a dozen men when a couple dozen tank shells, three minutes of mortar fire or the early use of bulldozers would have saved most if not all of there life's.

And given the near equality in military dead in that battle, 25 Palestinian gunmen for 23 IDF soldiers with another 50 civilians killed by both sides, there decision to later level about 1% of the camp cant be attacked, though I know you haven't cited it or anything.

If this was just irregular warfare, I'd agree with you. But as it is this is a quite often convetional war in which external politics prevent Israel from ever inflicting a knock out blow. As a result it is going to drag on for another few years easily.

And with no one sufficiently in power in the West bank and Gaza to negotiate with Israel and make it stick, and early political settlement is not likely. Even if the leader ship on both sides wanted it, it could not happen.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2002-11-25 06:12pm

Beowulf wrote:
neoolong wrote:I think they should have tried a warning shot first. If the crowd didn't disperse try, try to wound. If they still didn't disperse or if they felt their lives were in danger, then they should shoot to kill.
Not listening are you? Soldiers are trained to kill, not wound. And they did feel their lives were in danger, and rightfully so, or did you not read the part in the article where they found 2 bombs in what was thrown at them?

I was reading it. I know they are trained to kill, but they could at least try.

And if you had read my post you would see that if they feel their lives are in danger they should shoot to kill, that would include bombs.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2002-11-25 07:18pm

neoolong wrote:
Beowulf wrote:
Not listening are you? Soldiers are trained to kill, not wound. And they did feel their lives were in danger, and rightfully so, or did you not read the part in the article where they found 2 bombs in what was thrown at them?
I was reading it. I know they are trained to kill, but they could at least try.

And if you had read my post you would see that if they feel their lives are in danger they should shoot to kill, that would include bombs.

If there were bomb-throwers in that crowd, it is entirely possible that they told the children to go forward and throw rocks to provide cover for their assault. In a situation where children are raised from birth to believe that death is just a quick and painless journey to a really cool place called "Paradise", they'd get lots of volunteers.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2002-11-25 07:23pm

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: If there were bomb-throwers in that crowd, it is entirely possible that they told the children to go forward and throw rocks to provide cover for their assault. In a situation where children are raised from birth to believe that death is just a quick and painless journey to a really cool place called "Paradise", they'd get lots of volunteers.

US Army Rangers saw similar tactics in Somalia. Women and children would stand in front of gunmen who were firing on the Rangers. The women and children would shout at the Rangers, knowing that Americans were loath to shoot unarmed "innocents." The tactic did not work too well in that situation, and many of those "innocent" women and children absorbed bullets.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-11-25 07:28pm

jegs2 wrote:
The Duchess of Zeon wrote: If there were bomb-throwers in that crowd, it is entirely possible that they told the children to go forward and throw rocks to provide cover for their assault. In a situation where children are raised from birth to believe that death is just a quick and painless journey to a really cool place called "Paradise", they'd get lots of volunteers.
US Army Rangers saw similar tactics in Somalia. Women and children would stand in front of gunmen who were firing on the Rangers. The women and children would shout at the Rangers, knowing that Americans were loath to shoot unarmed "innocents." The tactic did not work too well in that situation, and many of those "innocent" women and children absorbed bullets.

Indeed. With fuzzy threats like that and the fact that so many Israeli citizens and soldiers dead, trigger fingers are going to get itchy. It's regrettable that kids died but it's a consequence of the Palenstinians using them as pawns.

ArmorPierce · Post by **ArmorPierce** » 2002-11-25 07:36pm

Where's Wong when you need him....

I think that the soldiers have a right to defend themselves, but shooting em is going a bit over board. Think the Boston massacre and what it resulted in....

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2002-11-25 07:42pm

ArmorPierce wrote:Where's Wong when you need him....

Like many here, Mike has a life outside this website.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-11-25 07:57pm

Am I supposed to feel sorry for some dumbass kid who throws rocks and bottles at ARMED soldiers? They weren't spitting at them. Rocks can hurt.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-11-25 07:59pm

ArmorPierce wrote:Where's Wong when you need him....

I think that the soldiers have a right to defend themselves, but shooting em is going a bit over board. Think the Boston massacre and what it resulted in....

Of course it was overboard. But the situation is so far out of norms that shit like this is bound to happen. The Palestinians send kids out in rock throwing mobs and this is what happens

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-11-25 08:00pm

ArmorPierce wrote:Where's Wong when you need him....

I think that the soldiers have a right to defend themselves, but shooting em is going a bit over board. Think the Boston massacre and what it resulted in....

It's not like they need more propaganda...

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2002-11-25 08:07pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Evil Sadistic Bastard wrote: I don't know about you, but I would have initiated ethnic cleansing on the spot.
That's what the Serbs did to the Kosovo Muslims....they had had enough
of the Muslim's fundie bullshit and decided to just kill/expel them all, but
didn't count on the muslims running to Klintler, who got NATO to save
their worthless terrorist, fundie, asses

Oh, so ALL of ALBANIANS are ALL the SAME as ALL Muslims in Shep's happy little mind, and by the way, all Muslims are terrorists too!

Shep, no offense, but I support the mass-execution of any and all people in power who's views remotely ressemble your outlook in any way.