Definition of when life begins

[The Dark]

I'm sure all of us who have argued about abortion, either pro or con, have run into the question of when a fertilized egg gets to the point where it should have rights. That seems to be the core of religious conservative resistance to abortion, and is quite simply an issue that ethically should be considered, even if it results in a grey area of uncertainty.

My own view is that it cannot be placed any sooner than two weeks after conception. For those first two weeks, there are no differentiated cells within the embryo, and it is not implanted in the uterine wall. A significant proportion of embryos do not proceed beyond this point due to failure to implant. Additionally, during these two weeks the embryo can still split to become twins, thus it cannot be considered a "unique individual." I haven't really looked much further than this at the current time, but I was wondering what limits others consider for abortion. Please note that I'm wanting discussion of points...arguing over the validity of Roe v Wade or abortion in general is not intended, and I will be somewhat miffed if anyone hijacks this.

[Alyeska]

Playing semantics and politics. Biologicaly life begins at conception because that is when the sperm and the egg have fused and begun replication towards a new human being.

[DrkHelmet]

Playing semantics and politics. Biologicaly life begins at conception because that is when the sperm and the egg have fused and begun replication towards a new human being.

I think he means "when are they alive enough to have human rights?" I'm not sure, but that's what I got out of it.

[SPOOFE]

Until there's a central nervous system, I can't accept an embryo as an individual any more than I can accept a toe or a finger as a unique individual.

As for limits on abortion.... while it's hard to find a distinct cutoff point, I would suggest that an abortion should be an option up until the fetus is capable of surviving on its own outside the womb. This would make abortion allowable up until the last two or three months of development.

[weemadando]

I would say that a new life begins as soon as the fetus' brain begins to function.

[Vendetta]

I would suggest the point at which life can be artificially sustained outside the womb.

I am aware that there is no defined 'point', only a varying chance of survival, but real chances start at around 23 weeks.

[The Dark]

Playing semantics and politics. Biologicaly life begins at conception because that is when the sperm and the egg have fused and begun replication towards a new human being.

I think he means "when are they alive enough to have human rights?" I'm not sure, but that's what I got out of it.

Sorry, yes, that is what I intended. When are they developed enough to be considered a human being / being worthy of protective rights?

[Rye]

I suspect the general consensus around here is when the baby's thinking. Before that, it's pretty much just meat gestating within a woman. If she wants it gone at that time, we've got a duty to help her, if it's thinking, well then we've got to consider both of them.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

I would say any point beyond which a given prematurely delivered infant has a greater than 50/50 chance of surviving to its first birthday, given the correct care, would be a good cutoff point.

By that time, they have sufficiently developed central nervous systems, brains, and other human characteristics that they cross the line from being a kind of esoteric parasite of a parasite to being something human and worth legal protections as such. (We can really say that a fetus with a fully developed central nervous system can be considered a legal human, but if it absolutely cannot survive without being attached to a placenta attached to a uterus, then it is difficult to consider it worth legal protection on its own.)

[Darth Wong]

Playing semantics and politics. Biologicaly life begins at conception because that is when the sperm and the egg have fused and begun replication towards a new human being.

Incorrect. Both the sperm and egg were already alive, so you cannot say that "life begins" at any point during this process. What we are arguing about is the acquisition of human rights, not the beginning of life.

[Sriad]

I would suggest the point at which life can be artificially sustained outside the womb.

I am aware that there is no defined 'point', only a varying chance of survival, but real chances start at around 23 weeks.

I also like this definition, but as medical science progresses though, this will be a decresing length of time, so we'll probably want to find one that is more concrete.

[Son of the Suns]

My definition of when life begins is when the child has higher brain functions. Whether or not the child can survive outside the womb with or without artificial support is irrelavent to the question of whether the child deserves human rights.

[Surlethe]

That seems to be the core of religious conservative resistance to abortion, and is quite simply an issue that ethically should be considered, even if it results in a grey area of uncertainty.

The conservative resistance to abortion is focused around the point when the "soul" enters the fetus, not the point when it is alive with human rights; the two could be very different (e.g. Terry Schiavo).

Myself, I believe an embryo begins to pick up rights once it has implanted into the uterine wall; the rights aren't defensible, however, until the fetus' life can be sustained outside of the womb.

[Zadius]

The better questian is "When does human life begin?" because, as Mr. Wong said, the sperm and the egg are living.

[DPDarkPrimus]

The better questian is "When does human life begin?" because, as Mr. Wong said, the sperm and the egg are living.

The question needs to be tweaked even more, because once the two combine, that's techincally human life, since it's human DNA.

[dworkin]

The better questian is "When does human life begin?" because, as Mr. Wong said, the sperm and the egg are living.

Human life began about six to seven million years ago. As to when I feel a fetus should be awarded human rights there are days when I feel it should be sometime after their 18th birthday.

Seriously, it's a sliding scale with me. 'No cause' abortions only for the early stages. If asked for a hard and fast time I'ld say the first trimester.
After that one should be required to show some cause for having an abortion. As the pregnancy progresses the reasons have to become better.

So, if you discovered in week 16 that your fetus has Down's syndrome, fine. If for some reason the scan wasn't done until very late (week 32) I would say no. If however the mother was a victim of a chemical accident or poisoning that injured the fetus at this late date then yes. Also, if you discover you're pregnant 2 weeks after that one night stand with Trevor, fine, go ahead. If you faff about and decide you don't want the child after another five or six months then show some good cause.

[Zadius]

The better questian is "When does human life begin?" because, as Mr. Wong said, the sperm and the egg are living.

The question needs to be tweaked even more, because once the two combine, that's techincally human life, since it's human DNA.

Sperm doesn't have human DNA in it?

[DrkHelmet]

The better questian is "When does human life begin?" because, as Mr. Wong said, the sperm and the egg are living.

The question needs to be tweaked even more, because once the two combine, that's techincally human life, since it's human DNA.

Sperm doesn't have human DNA in it?

I think he refers to a unique DNA sequence, one only belonging to the fertilized egg cell.

[Zero]

The sperm and the egg also at least come from humans, although neither can actually become a full adult without combining with one of the other. By my understanding, the point at which the two meet, the point of conception, is at least the beginning of the individual person that it will grow into. What else would be the beginning of that?

[LauraG]

I'd say life begins around weeks 22-24, when independent life is possible outside the womb. A human life that's not viable even with very involved medical assistance isn't an individual. It's a potential individual.

Of course, I'd expect any woman to know if she wants to have her baby long before week 22 but it, for some reason she doesn't, she should have the choice until then. After that I would think giving the baby up for adoption would be the reasonable choice.

[DPDarkPrimus]

I'd say life begins around weeks 22-24, when independent life is possible outside the womb. A human life that's not viable even with very involved medical assistance isn't an individual. It's a potential individual.

As someone who was born prematurely and had to be on life support for the first month of my life, I take offense at that.

[Seggybop]

I would suggest the point at which life can be artificially sustained outside the womb.

What will that mean once we reach the inevitable point where humans can complete their entire prenatal development cycle under artificial circumstances?

[LauraG]

As someone who was born prematurely and had to be on life support for the first month of my life, I take offense at that.

I'm sorry that you do. How premature, if I may ask? Less than 22 weeks?

[DPDarkPrimus]

As someone who was born prematurely and had to be on life support for the first month of my life, I take offense at that.

I'm sorry that you do. How premature, if I may ask? Less than 22 weeks?

Well, my birthday was yesterday. If I had been born after the typical nine months, it'd have been sometime in the very late fall.

[Uraniun235]

I'd say life begins around weeks 22-24, when independent life is possible outside the womb. A human life that's not viable even with very involved medical assistance isn't an individual. It's a potential individual.

I don't think the viability condition is applicable. If we had the technology to sustain a fetus outside the womb at 12 weeks, would that make a 12 week fetus an individual human life with rights that should be protected?

It should really about whether or not the brain has developed to the point where thought can actually take place and a personality can form - I'm pretty sure this subject has been argued here at SDN before, and IIRC this was the conclusion reached.