Ethical dilemma: prevent a suicide at your own risk

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2005-07-26 08:18am

I'm not sure if this counts as an ethical dilemma, but I'll post it anyway to give something to chew on for the mindful.

What if you found yourself in a position where someone with a gun or knife is threatening to kill themselves? Or hell, even if they're threatening to jump out of a building. The bottom line is, if you intervene physically you might be stabbed/shot or pulled down with the guy if he jumps. So to intervene you have to place yourself at risk, there is a chance you might be hurt or injured or perhaps even killed (hell what's a murder-suicide to a guy who's contemplating suicide and is armed?).

The question is: what do you do? Sit back and watch human tragedy unfolding with detached observation? Tell the guy bon voyage and to try and not make too much of a mess? Scuffle Chuck Norris style to prevent another statistic? Try to reason with the person at arm's length? Turn around and get the hell out of there, possibly to call the police or someone? Or maybe just to get out of there. Throw the guy a phone after calling some suicide prevention hotline?

What do you do? Go nuts.

Turin · Post by **Turin** » 2005-07-26 08:27am

The person trying to kill themselves has consented to die in this case. I don't have an ethical obligation to risk life and limb to rescue them, but I should probably try to talk them down from harming themselves. The big question I see is whether or not the person can really be considered to have self-consent (I think I just made that phrase up, but you probably know what it means). If they're seriously mentally ill, I'm not sure we can consider them to have given consent to die, which increases our ethical responsibility to save them.

Does it depend on the degree of danger? If the only choice is:
1. The person jumps and dies, or
2. The person jumps and dies, with a 100% chance I go with him,

then it would seem that I have to choose #1. But if there is a genuine realistic chance of saving the person, I'm ethically obligated to do so (assuming again that they're mentally ill and not able to give self-consent).

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2005-07-26 08:33am

EDIT: Forgot to ask, what would be the legal obligations if any? Would that enter your mind in anyway?

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2005-07-26 08:35am

Stofsk wrote:
What do you do?

For a complete stranger? Not a damn thing. At most, I call the cops but that'll be pushing it.

Zero · Post by **Zero** » 2005-07-26 08:53am

Look, if he's actually stating that he's going to kill himself, and he's looking ready to jump/shoot/cut/whatever, he doesn't probably actually want to die. If he did, he'd be quiet about it, wouldn't make a fuss. Talk the fucker down, or if that doesn't quite do it.. I'd see if I could get close enough to maybe take the weapon without being killed by the fucker, and I probably would be big enough to keep both him and myself from going over the edge of a building or some such thing.

Of course, that's just me, and I never gave much of a fuck about me anyways.

spikenigma · Post by **spikenigma** » 2005-07-26 09:20am

talk to him as much as I can at arms length, try to get him to give me the gun/walk away from the side of the building

I'll not under any circumstances try to tackle him away from the side of the building nor wrestle the gun away from his hands - due to a combination of legal rammifications which would adversely affect me and my family if I fail to gain the upper hand and of course even if I am successful, things like this.

Basically, anything I can do without putting myself in immediate danger I'll do to try and save his life. If it's a woman, I'll put myself in a moderate ammount of immediate danger to try to help her...

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2005-07-26 11:01am

To me, everyone has the right to forfeit. As long as he/she isn't going to hurt anyone with his suicide, it isn't my place to stop him.

Turin · Post by **Turin** » 2005-07-26 11:25am

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:To me, everyone has the right to forfeit. As long as he/she isn't going to hurt anyone with his suicide, it isn't my place to stop him.

Societies should allow people to pretty much do whatever they want as long as they don't harm others, right? But in some circumstances society deems that people don't have the necessary level of competence to make those decisions (example: minor children can't consent legally to a great many things). If someone is impaired in some way, either permanently in the case of severe mental illness, or temporarily in the case of someone who is drunk or on drugs, don't we have an obligation to prevent that person from doing undue harm to him- or herself? So can we really say everyone has the right to forfeit?

mr friendly guy · Post by **mr friendly guy** » 2005-07-26 11:32am

1) call the police, ambulance etc

2) reason with him from FAR away in case his decision to suicide is because he has a mental illness (ie he is not "himself").

If it is a mental illness, some of these are cries for help, as they have a habit of not killing themselves successfully. Successful suicides are usually dead before the ambulance even arrived.

However his life is not worth mine, and I wouldn't risk physical danger to myself. This is even if I am convinced he has a mental illness. One of the cardinal rules of first aid is to watch for danger to yourself, because there is no point trying to help someone and end up needing rescue yourself (it will lead to the next guy needing to rescue 2 people instead of one).

FSTargetDrone · Post by **FSTargetDrone** » 2005-07-26 03:11pm

The suicide will directly effect any family members or loved ones or whomever who may spend years in mental anguish asking "why?", so saying that it harms no one else is nonsense. And there probably isn't time to ask this person's life story, so we can't assume he or she is alone in the world, friendless, or with no desire to live. The individual in question is certainly desperate and probably not thinking clearly, aside from any other mental issues. Talking to the person is the least someone could do, so I would probably try to do that.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2005-07-26 03:32pm

Stofsk wrote:Try to reason with the person at arm's length?

I would do that, try to provide an emotional support. And if it got really, really nasty, I might jump in, but, to be honest, I'd probably be too afraid to do so.

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » 2005-07-26 03:42pm

Turin wrote:
Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:To me, everyone has the right to forfeit. As long as he/she isn't going to hurt anyone with his suicide, it isn't my place to stop him.
Societies should allow people to pretty much do whatever they want as long as they don't harm others, right? But in some circumstances society deems that people don't have the necessary level of competence to make those decisions (example: minor children can't consent legally to a great many things). If someone is impaired in some way, either permanently in the case of severe mental illness, or temporarily in the case of someone who is drunk or on drugs, don't we have an obligation to prevent that person from doing undue harm to him- or herself? So can we really say everyone has the right to forfeit?

Only if you trust society to have an objective standard on this ... and with the feds slapping around states like Oregon with rational assisted-death laws, how can you trust in that?

It's not my place to tell him not to do it, what the hell do I know about the life he leads inside his skull? Just don't make a mess or take anybody else with you.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-07-26 03:49pm

Given the misery that his suicide might inflict on relatives, friends, family members etc., I would want to stop it but I would not expose myself to danger. I value my life more than his.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2005-07-26 05:04pm

If it's a complete stranger I know nothing about, I'd simply tell them to go right ahead. Any possible reason I try and use to convince them otherwise would sound contrite and insincere, since I know absolutely nothing about them, so why should I make the effort? It's not as though they're threatening to shoot, stab, or otherwise harm anyone else in the area except themselves. They're simply being a bit more public about it than if they'd gone into their bedroom and tried slitting their wrists. At the most I'd consider calling 911, otherwise it's not really my place to interfere.

Though I suppose if i really was expected to try and stop them, I'd ask them how come they haven't killed themselves already if they were truly intent on removing themselves from the genepool? If they wanted to die as badly as they were claiming, they'd have done it already. Get them to explain their reasoning, etc., maybe calm them down.

aerius · Post by **aerius** » 2005-07-26 05:35pm

Nope, ain't risking my life. I ain't trained in suicide prevention, anything I do beyond trying to talk to the person will likely escalate the situation and lead to bad shit. Talk to the guy if I have to, call the cops & trained experts in to deal with it, better to have one dead guy than 2.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2005-07-26 05:41pm

Darth Wong wrote:Given the misery that his suicide might inflict on relatives, friends, family members etc., I would want to stop it but I would not expose myself to danger. I value my life more than his.

According to the suicide intervention course I took when I was in the Army, that's exactly what your supposed to do. Try to talk him/her out of it, but at no time do you expose yourself to danger, that just generates another body. As sometimes they want to take someone wth them when they want to go.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2005-07-26 05:54pm

It looks like I'm not going to be the first to say it but I'll do whatever it takes short of risking the lives of others or myself. One death is tragic, two are twice as worse.

GrandMasterTerwynn · Post by **GrandMasterTerwynn** » 2005-07-26 06:12pm

The most I would do is walk away and call the cops. I'm not a trained psychologist. If I were to actually try to talk to the person, I would, in a fit of spiteful frustration, probably end up yelling: "JUST JUMP ALREADY, YOU WORTHLESS DONKEY-FUCKER! QUIT WASTING MY TIME! ARRGH, I'LL PUSH YOU MYSELF! *throws nearby rock*"

Tinkerbell · Post by **Tinkerbell** » 2005-07-26 08:29pm

I'm torn on this. I know that I didn't want anyone to come remotely near me. Kind of a "Just let me fucking do this alone" thing. The fact that someone's out in public doesnt always mean theyre scared, or wont go through with it. If you're at that point, and you feel like youve done nothing but hurt and make things harder for those you care about, you're not going to want your family to come home and discover your body. Even though I understand the feelings and all that, I couldn't stand knowing I did nothing. I would talk to them for as long as I could.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2005-07-27 03:41am

Well the first thing you do is call the prevention hotline; then ask him/her why, because you want to give the impression, that even you, a complete stranger, cares. I'd tell 'em they had one last phone call, and give it to the hotline. If push comes to shove, I'd try to physically interevene, unless the suicidee had a gun, or was 3 feet from an open window.

DrkHelmet · Post by **DrkHelmet** » 2005-07-27 03:56am

I fail to see how this would be my problem. If it's a person I don't know, then I have no reason to even attempt to sway a descision that he has already made. I am assuming that the person in this OP is a legal adult and is capable of making his own descisions.

Why should I interfere with another adult making a descision regarding his own life (or lack thereof)? It is not my affair.

Zadius · Post by **Zadius** » 2005-07-27 06:41am

I would do everying thing I could short of putting myself in danger but, If it were a person i know I would probably risk myself to stop it.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2005-07-27 06:44am

Turin wrote:The person trying to kill themselves has consented to die in this case.

Bullshit.

Wet, drippy, nasty, festering bullshit.

I won't say there are no cases where that statement applies, but they goddamn fucking rare.

99.999999999% of suicides are mentally ill.. Oh, yeah, they "choose" to die, they "consent" to die....

Do epileptics "choose" to have seizures?

To put it bluntly, suicidal people are sick in the head. Ill. They can't meaningfully "consent".

As for the OP question - I'm not going to run a high risk of death myself to stop someone trying to kill themselves. If I can talk them out of it, or if there's a reasonably safe way to disarm/immobilize them until more help arrives I'll take it, but that's about it.

I'd probably exert myself more for a relative or close friend than a complete stranger.

I couldn't walk away, or worse yet stand beneath a tall building and yell "jump!", but I'm not going to risk going over the edge of a roof myself in order to stop the truly determined. I want to live!

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2005-07-27 06:59am

Broomstick, you wouldn't happen to have source for your claim that 99+ percent of suicides are committed by mentally ill people incapable of making rational decisions?

Zadius · Post by **Zadius** » 2005-07-27 07:18am

99.999999999% of suicides are mentally ill.

Wrong. Their judgement may be clouded by a mental disorder like depression but some people really honestly want to die.

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Ethical dilemma: prevent a suicide at your own risk

Ethical dilemma: prevent a suicide at your own risk

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