Death Star I vs. B5 Powers

[adam warlock]

I will believe only what is supported by evidence. If you cannot provide the direct quotation in the case of literature, or an episode and scene description in the case of the televised episodes, then you have no evidence, and no proof.

xalev already provided the quotes.. read em

Which is exactly what I just told you in the message you replied to. That quote gives validity only to B5Wars and AoG info.

aog b5wars usable.. thankyou.

and jms commentaries provided by xalev.. gives evidence for canonicity of novels..

He is a single individual, who didn't even get involved in events until Sheridan arrived and made him interested.
[/quoe]

yet he is classed as a "first one".

That is a lie. We saw it's capabilities at Corianna 6.

not lie.. true we saw what it can do at corianna 6.. but this doesnt indicate what its fully capable of it... the fact that it only fired two missles, when it had thousands surronding the yr, gived credit to the idea that the shadows were still holding back.

They showed no hesitancy in attempting to destroy the White Star until te communication with Lorien started.

this is proving my point more than yours.

they wanted to kill the sheriden and delenn specifically, the two who held the yr together against the guidance of the firstones, so that they didnt have to kill the others.. but they failed since other ships moved in to intercept the missles.. sacrificing themselves.. sheriden and delenn told the vorlons and shadows that they would have to kill everyone in stop the "rebellion" against their guidande.. which the shadows and vorlons werent willing to do.. watch the episode again, and try to understand it.

Which episode did this take place in?

destruction of arkada7 was detailed in "The summoning" season 4.
destruction of z'hadum was detailed in "Epiphanies" season 4.

That is completely incorrect and only betrays your ignorance of the subject matter. SW hyperspace is a separate dimension, and is described as such in nearly all sources where it is even mentioned.

hence why i put AFAIK... and u still accuse of me ignorance.. while you cavort around saying b5 hyperspace is identical to sw hyperspace..

as for sw hyperspace.. name me the source where it is said that sw hyperspace is within a separate dimension..
this site doesnt say that.. the novel references in curtis saxtons site doesnt give any indication..

and this is what the ics states
"hyperdrives allow voyages through an eerie realm called hyperspace-i.e., "the ordinary universe" viewed from a ship travelling faster than the speed of light."

whats more.. from the novelisation of a new hope:
"Traveling through hyperspace isn't like dusting crops, boy. Ever tried calculating a hyperspace jump?" Luke had to shake his head. "It's no mean trick. Be nice if we rushed it and passed right through a star or some other friendly spatial phenom like a black hole. That would end our trip real quick."
the fact that objects in sw hyperspace can interact with objects in sw norm space means that sw hyperspace and normal space arent at all disconnected as concluded by curtis saxton.

A planet is essentially a stationary target. The Imperials have computers capable of predicting the paths and locations of objects for hyperdrive trips across the galaxy. Aiming at a single planet will not be a challenge.

assuming they dont allow for demonstrative displays of power, i.e. like destroying alderaan,

and of course assuming already that the deathstar crew would already know what every species in b5 are capable of, technologically, and tactically,..so that they know not to slow down or stop in case they are attacked via use of certain documented tactics in b5... i.e. you are giving them a prior knowledge.

Yes, I am talking about that Shadow. If you have evidence that it was some other form of life than a Shadow, please present it.

that was a shadow servent.. lol..
cant u tell a difference.. standard shadows have five legs, that thing in "the long night" was bipedal. and was too tall for a shadow.

nevertheless we still dont know whether that thing died or not.. since no body of it was found.
the same case with a shadow blasted by a centauri ppg.. no body appeared.. no release of energy as described in the technomage books (which are canon sources of info)

The Emperor hid the fact that an 18km ship was landed on a completely urbanized planet withn mile-high buildings and then covered over again with more buildings. He essentially blanked completely the minds of several trillion people for a period of several days to several months depending on your view of SW building construction abilities.

doesnt mean that the emperor would be any less vulnerable to an attack from lyta, let alone from a vorlon.
and the being that lyta destroyed was in direct control of a planet for millions of years..

[Master of Ossus]

SW hyperspace also looks nothing like B5 hyperspace. It has no clouds, and is the color of stars instead of the blood red color of B5. Finally, SW hyperspace doesn't provide anyone with a "short cut" through normal space, those ships are ACTUALLY moving faster than light (by a lot). My conclusion is that the two hyperspaces are not the same.

Also note the lack of jumpgates, and the pseudo-motion that is far longer on both sides than it is in B5.

[Graeme Dice]

He caused her no permanent physiological or noticeable psychological harm. Any other possible damage is not supported by the evidence and is mere assumption.

Permanant damage is not necessary for the required task of mind raping storm troopers.

Then it is an utterly and completely useless ability when dealing with how to kill a billion people.

Grand Moff Tarkin: Fire on the planet Lt.

Lt: Which planet sir?

GMT: The planet right in front of us. Fire!

Lt: but sir...

GMT: FIRE!!

DS shoots a planet killing blast..into empty space because of a firstone's interference causing the loss of a superlaser blast.

This is the confusion I speak of.

So you expect them to obey the orders of someone who is obviously insane?

Anybody with a blaster would have such authority to disobey their commanding officer...

It's called removing them from command. Also known as mutiny.

You do of course know that the piece of said vorlon can then leave the storm troopers body correct?

No, it can't once the host dies, or it would have simply done so when Seridan was dying instead of keeping him at the brink.

And once the Vorlon is free, he will be able to move about the DS freely, killing troopers and officers as he goes, completely impervious to their blaster fire.

Nothing is "completely impervious" to blaster fire.

Not really no. While it probably is beyond the abilities of the eye to mind control all the beings on the DS, only MCing (Mind controlling) the high ranking officers would be enough to subdue the DS.

Darth Vader is on board since it's the first DS. How do they plan to control him?

[Mechwolf]

All a Vorlon ship would have to do is open a Jump Point on th DS to cripple, if not destroy it.

[Graeme Dice]

[quote="adam warlock]

That is a lie. We saw it's capabilities at Corianna 6.

not lie.. true we saw what it can do at corianna 6.. but this doesnt indicate what its fully capable of it... the fact that it only fired two missles, when it had thousands surronding the yr, gived credit to the idea that the shadows were still holding back.[/quote]
Yes, it does indicate what it's canon capabilities are. Anything else not supported by evidence is mere fanboy speculation.

they wanted to kill the sheriden and delenn specifically, the two who held the yr together against the guidance of the firstones, so that they didnt have to kill the others.. but they failed since other ships moved in to intercept the missles.. sacrificing themselves.. sheriden and delenn told the vorlons and shadows that they would have to kill everyone in stop the "rebellion" against their guidande.. which the shadows and vorlons werent willing to do.. watch the episode again, and try to understand it.

Make up your mind, first they don't want to kill the Whitestar, now they wanted it dead but somehow can't destroy a dozen ships.

That is completely incorrect and only betrays your ignorance of the subject matter. SW hyperspace is a separate dimension, and is described as such in nearly all sources where it is even mentioned.

hence why i put AFAIK... and u still accuse of me ignorance.. while you cavort around saying b5 hyperspace is identical to sw hyperspace..

as for sw hyperspace.. name me the source where it is said that sw hyperspace is within a separate dimension..
this site doesnt say that.. the novel references in curtis saxtons site doesnt give any indication..

and this is what the ics states
"hyperdrives allow voyages through an eerie realm called hyperspace-i.e., "the ordinary universe" viewed from a ship travelling faster than the speed of light."

Note the "eerie realm". That would be the other dimension.

whats more.. from the novelisation of a new hope:
"Traveling through hyperspace isn't like dusting crops, boy. Ever tried calculating a hyperspace jump?" Luke had to shake his head. "It's no mean trick. Be nice if we rushed it and passed right through a star or some other friendly spatial phenom like a black hole. That would end our trip real quick."
the fact that objects in sw hyperspace can interact with objects in sw norm space means that sw hyperspace and normal space arent at all disconnected as concluded by curtis saxton.

Their disconnection has nothing to do with whether they are a separate dimension.

and of course assuming already that the deathstar crew would already know what every species in b5 are capable of, technologically, and tactically,..so that they know not to slow down or stop in case they are attacked via use of certain documented tactics in b5... i.e. you are giving them a prior knowledge.

No, I am simply having them move as fast as they did when attacking the moon of Yavin

The Emperor hid the fact that an 18km ship was landed on a completely urbanized planet withn mile-high buildings and then covered over again with more buildings. He essentially blanked completely the minds of several trillion people for a period of several days to several months depending on your view of SW building construction abilities.

doesnt mean that the emperor would be any less vulnerable to an attack from lyta, let alone from a vorlon.

Yes, it does. It means that he has orders of magnitude more power than Lyta when it comes to controlling individual minds.

and the being that lyta destroyed was in direct control of a planet for millions of years..

Were the minds it controlled normally individuals?

[Graeme Dice]

All a Vorlon ship would have to do is open a Jump Point on th DS to cripple, if not destroy it.

I see. Exactly like what the Shadows and first ones didn't do to the Vorlon Planet Killer. They wouldn't even be able to target something moving that fast.

[adam warlock]

Yes, it does indicate what it's canon capabilities are. Anything else not supported by evidence is mere fanboy speculation.

what the shadows cloud is fully capable of hasnt been shown, but it was shown to do a certain something.

Make up your mind, first they don't want to kill the Whitestar, now they wanted it dead but somehow can't destroy a dozen ships.

???...i dont think you read my reply carefully.. either that or you never watched that particular episode as you dont at all know what was going on..
fact they did have thousands of missles surrounding the yr fleet..
fact they only used two of them, only to try to kill delenn and sheriden
fact they werent willing to kill everyone else in the process of that..

Note the "eerie realm". That would be the other dimension.

you forgot the part where it says "the ordinary universe viewed from a ship travelling faster than the speed of light."

this completely indicates your level of ignorance.. which is off the charts now..
read the whole entry quote again.. better yet.. get the ics

Their disconnection has nothing to do with whether they are a separate dimension.

????. what are u on?... read the damn quote again.. it undoubtedly describes objects in sw hyperspace being affected by objects in sw realspace.. that indicates that there is no other dimension involved.. at the very least it indicates that b5 hyperspace IS not at all identical to sw hyperspace, given that you cannot interact with realspace objects while in b5 hyperspace.

No, I am simply having them move as fast as they did when attacking the moon of Yavin

fair dinkums, but nevertheless shadows phasing gives them the ability to drop in and out of hyperspace very quickly and at whatever speed they chose to... unless youre gonna start telling me that they cant determine the position of the ds at a certain time, using its speed.

Yes, it does. It means that he has orders of magnitude more power than Lyta when it comes to controlling individual minds.

again the extent of lytas abilities has never been fully shown...can you count the number of people she controlled in that market area scene "in wheel of fire".. she practically chose to control everyone there, apart from lochley (for her own amusement).. and with no difficulty.

so the emperor was merely blanking minds..and wasnt directly controlling those people.. while lyta destroyed (though not permanently) a hivemind being telepathically in control of an entire planet..

[Graeme Dice]

what the shadows cloud is fully capable of hasnt been shown, but it was shown to do a certain something.

Any attempt to give it abilities beyond what it has been shown to have is speculation, and those abilities cannot be used.

???...i dont think you read my reply carefully.. either that or you never watched that particular episode as you dont at all know what was going on..
fact they did have thousands of missles surrounding the yr fleet..
fact they only used two of them, only to try to kill delenn and sheriden
fact they werent willing to kill everyone else in the process of that..

This is irrelevant to the survivability of the Death Star vs. the death cloud.

you forgot the part where it says "the ordinary universe viewed from a ship travelling faster than the speed of light."

Which can easily be another dimension.

this completely indicates your level of ignorance.. which is off the charts now..
read the whole entry quote again.. better yet.. get the ics

It's better than your fanboy speculation about First One superpowers.

????. what are u on?... read the damn quote again.. it undoubtedly describes objects in sw hyperspace being affected by objects in sw realspace.. that indicates that there is no other dimension involved..

Or that the two dimensions are connected at all points.

at the very least it indicates that b5 hyperspace IS not at all identical to sw hyperspace, given that you cannot interact with realspace objects while in b5 hyperspace.

I never claimed that it was identical. I claimed that SW had knowledge of other dimensions.

fair dinkums, but nevertheless shadows phasing gives them the ability to drop in and out of hyperspace very quickly and at whatever speed they chose to... unless youre gonna start telling me that they cant determine the position of the ds at a certain time, using its speed.

No, I'm going to start claiming that they can't change their speed in that manner because they didn't do so when such a thing would give them instant victory. If they could, then B4 would have been destroyed before the Whitestar could get anywhere near firing range.

again the extent of lytas abilities has never been fully shown...can you count the number of people she controlled in that market area scene "in wheel of fire".. she practically chose to control everyone there, apart from lochley (for her own amusement).. and with no difficulty.

She controlled less than a hundred. Less than a hundred with no difficulty does not imply billions are possible at all.

so the emperor was merely blanking minds..and wasnt directly controlling those people.. while lyta destroyed (though not permanently) a hivemind being telepathically in control of an entire planet..

The Emperor directly controlled the crews of at least 25,000 ISDs. Thats direct mind control of close to 925 million people.

[Dead on Arrival]

No, I'm going to start claiming that they can't change their speed in that manner because they didn't do so when such a thing would give them instant victory. If they could, then B4 would have been destroyed before the Whitestar could get anywhere near firing range.

Babylon 4 was inside of the Temporal Rift, which should explain why they didn't simply appear next to there target as done on numerous occasions...

[Graeme Dice]

No, I'm going to start claiming that they can't change their speed in that manner because they didn't do so when such a thing would give them instant victory. If they could, then B4 would have been destroyed before the Whitestar could get anywhere near firing range.

Babylon 4 was inside of the Temporal Rift, which should explain why they didn't simply appear next to there target as done on numerous occasions...

So because they have the ability to cloak and fly up to a target and decloak that suddenly gives them the ability to instantly teleport their ships?

[Dead on Arrival]

So because they have the ability to cloak and fly up to a target and decloak that suddenly gives them the ability to instantly teleport their ships?

They don't cloak. They have the ability to phase in and out Hyperspace, which is what they do when they 'appear' next to a target. The Temporal Rift had to be enterered from realspace, so it seems likely it has no connection to Hyperspace at all. I apologize about any confusion...

[seanrobertson]

Does "use the force luke" Mean anything to you?

Ahh, so you're claiming that the protorps' snap-turn was
caused only by the Force?

Odd that the Rebels AND Imperials both recognized
that non-Force assisted protorps could "pose a threat"
to the battlestation then, eh? Or maybe Chief Bast
was lying to Tarkin, and Dodonna was blowing smoke
up everybody's asses

Then you are an idiot.

Blow me.

Lorien's people are one step below the Q (ref: AOG). They want a ship, they think about, and there it is. They want weapons. They think about it and there it is.

Bullshit. I said KNOWN WEAPONS. Has Lorien ever made a torpedo
capable of a 72,000g maneuver? NO, not that we're AWARE of.
Point out the source if it exists.

I never said that of all the First Ones, NONE of them were capable of
building something along the lines of a proton torpedo--something
you seem to be assuming I meant (though interestingly, the focus
is entirely on Lorien, "god" of B5, rather than the Shadows or Vorlons
now). I VERY clearly stated that I know of NO weapon ANY of such
races employed that could snap around, pass the ray shielding, and go down the DS's exhaust port.

Someone with the AOG book can probably go into more detail but that's what i've gathered from chatting with people who have it.

Let them, though you know perfectly well that by focusing ENTIRELY
on my passing comment about Lorien's people, you're avoiding
ALL of the other races I mentioned.

And I've yet to hear a countermeasure to the eye of Z'ha'dum. Does not one imperial supporter have a way to avoid this?

Is this the same Eye that could only control the telepathically-inclined
onboard Whitestar Prime? Big deal. It didn't even start screwing
with Lyta etc.'s minds until they were VERY close to Z'Ha'Dum. To
be sure, they were WELL outside the only known example of the
Death Star's firing range; i.e., six planetary diameters.

I'd also like to see this Eye try to pull something when it reaches out
for a telepath and finds HIM Palpatine on the DS.

If they want to destroy the main base of the shadows, there going to have to go up against it and available evidence points in the direction of complete and total control of the DS when within the sight of the Eye.

"When within sight of the Eye" means in CLOSE orbit. Whoops, sorry--
the DS doesn't do that.

We'd also have to assume that ALL important personnel--not simply
Stormtroopers guarding some obscure cooridor--were at LEAST latent
telepaths for this magical Eye to fuck up the DS's attack--that is,
ASSUMING it could reach out quickly enough to mess with someone
before the DS fires.

I imagine you've seen ANH. Tarkin toyed with Leia and wanted to
extract information from her before firing on Alderaan, so the length of
time the DS spent immediately out of hyperspace prior to firing isn't
indicative of the battlestation's full capabilities. (That, or Tarkin has
IMPECCABLE TIMING!)

More to the point: when the DS comes in at tens of millions c,
suddenly appears several hundred thousand kilometers away from
Z'Ha'Dum, and immediately opens fire, just WHEN is the Eye going
to have time to play its stupid little games?

Answer: that's right. NEVER. Of course, we're supposed to assume
the Shadow's weapon of doom has time to work on the DS..."fair's
fair" and all that :rolls:

Yes, calling me an idiot pisses me off.

Sean
Analyst http://www.babtech-onthe.net/

[adam warlock]

Any attempt to give it abilities beyond what it has been shown to have is speculation, and those abilities cannot be used.

???.. again your reasoning eludes me..
the shadow death cloud has clearly been shown to reduce temperature within the insulated confines of younger race ships..

yes it does have the ability..

you are saying that it cannot do this to the deathstar since deathstar produces so and so amount of power..

im saying that you cannot make this assertion since the shadows were holding back..during this time, and before..

This is irrelevant to the survivability of the Death Star vs. the death cloud.

it serves to point out the above.. which is relevant.

Which can easily be another dimension.

FOR crying out loud...
state the source, and quote where it says this then instead of repeatiting this idiotic assertion, and when the very fact that objects in sw hyperspace can interact (with deadly consequences) with objects in sw realspace indicates otherwise..
the ics IF you read the whole quote, also states that sw hyperspace is what sw realspace looks like when viewed from a ship moving at ftl.

It's better than your fanboy speculation about First One superpowers.

speculation.. hardly.

read jms commentaries on the canonicity of novels, and even b5wars.

Or that the two dimensions are connected at all points.

and that every object in one dimension SOOOO coincidentally happen to have A counterpart with the EXACT coordinates from the other dimension.. I SMELL BIG BLOBS OF BULLSHIT!!..

I never claimed that it was identical. I claimed that SW had knowledge of other dimensions.

so sw hyperspace is another dimension that sw ships happen to enter upon activating hyperdrive...that also happens to be identical to sw realspace, in order to explain the object interaction bit... *snicker*

now what relevance does this with b5 hyperspace being used to bypass things like sw shields since those shields do not have effective components in b5 hyperspace, EVEN if somehow they have a component in this zany sw hyperspace extra dimension..

No, I'm going to start claiming that they can't change their speed in that manner because they didn't do so when such a thing would give them instant victory.

your claim has zero relevance.. its canon fact from the shows that we see shadows phasing in and out while theyre still moving..

whats more.. a whitestar was able to cross the distance between ganymede and jupiter, a distance of 1,070,000km, in 30 seconds.. a speed of 3.6e7ms-1.. or 0.1 of lightspeed.
thats a lot faster than the deathstar moving at around 200,000 in 5minutes as it closed in on Yavin.. and shadow battleships can match and even better whitestar speed.

[/quote]
If they could, then B4 would have been destroyed before the Whitestar could get anywhere near firing range.
[/quote]

what you think those shadow fightrs expected a whitestar to comeback in time, and shoot them from behind... and these are FIghters.. not battleships.. the speed of these fighters doesnt indicate the speed at which the shadow battleships can go.

She controlled less than a hundred. Less than a hundred with no difficulty does not imply billions are possible at all.

non indicator of what shes fully capable of.. though yes she can control tens of people with zero difficulty.. it doesnt mean her limit is 100, or such.. we simply do not know..
we know that she is fully capable of severely disrupting a hivemind being that was in control of a planet..

when did the emperor directly control a billion beings?.. and why couldnt he afford a little power to spare for those "handful" of rebels..
and does being able to control that many people make him any less vulnerable to lytas psy attacks than that hivemind..

The Emperor directly controlled the crews of at least 25,000 ISDs. Thats direct mind control of close to 925 million people.

there is zero indication that he was directly in control of that many people at the same time.. indication similar to the one given about cboath controlling a crew of an isd.

even vader had difficulty in using some of that dark force endowed telepathy against boba fett (boba fett graphic novel)..
and he made no attempt to control a crowd of people that ran amok and started beating up on his storm troopers (vaders quest graphic novel).

if the emperor was so powerful a telepath couldnt he spare a small percent of his uber towers to stop the rebels..

also keep in mind.. we are still discussing one uber b5 telepath, lyta vs a dark lord of sith.. shift this into a more realistic scenario in the confines of the debate.. where we have a whole race of telepaths, each more powerful than lyta, versus at most (in this debate) two sith lords..make that a few other races with strong telepaths, since we are including shadows, mindriders, the triad, and lorien here..

[adam warlock]

Is this the same Eye that could only control the telepathically-inclined
onboard Whitestar Prime ? Big deal. It didn't even start screwing
with Lyta etc.

the same eye that reached out to susan ivanova while she was scanning around sigma 957, using the great machine..
now the eye either got to her at epsilon 3, or at sigma 957,,, either way were talking about the distances that can only be reached via use of hyperspace.

draal also indicated that she would be killed if she didnt get away.. and she just barely managed to...perhaps her being a latent teep may have contributed to her narrow escape from the eye.

[Master of Ossus]

Is this the same Eye that could only control the telepathically-inclined
onboard Whitestar Prime ? Big deal. It didn't even start screwing
with Lyta etc.

the same eye that reached out to susan ivanova while she was scanning around sigma 957, using the great machine..
now the eye either got to her at epsilon 3, or at sigma 957,,, either way were talking about the distances that can only be reached via use of hyperspace.

draal also indicated that she would be killed if she didnt get away.. and she just barely managed to...perhaps her being a latent teep may have contributed to her narrow escape from the eye.

Of COURSE her telepathic ability allowed her to escape. BTW, are you sure that that was the Eye? I didn't catch that reference.

[adam warlock]

Of COURSE her telepathic ability allowed her to escape. BTW, are you sure that that was the Eye? I didn't catch that reference.

she did sense the presence of the eye before they came into her view.
and she was doing things with the machine that couldnt have been done by a normal human mind (like seeing the assasination of president santiago, and president clarks involvement) as stated by draal himself..

yes that was the eye.. similar set of lights (arranged like a shadows eyes) and making the similar sounds (fx) as that thing lyta & co encountered on approach to z'ha dum (in first ep of seaso 4 episode "Hour of the Wolf")

jms also commented on this

http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries ... e/067.html

Check out "Voices of Authority." You've seen those eyes before.

The eyes were a projection of a shadow face, as you can note in the main title.

[Master of Ossus]

Cool, so *that's* what the Eye does and looks like. I never knew that.

I also know that Draal stated that a normal human shouldn't have been able to do all that. I think that is definitely a reference to Ivanova's psychic abilities.

[Graeme Dice]

Any attempt to give it abilities beyond what it has been shown to have is speculation, and those abilities cannot be used.

???.. again your reasoning eludes me..
the shadow death cloud has clearly been shown to reduce temperature within the insulated confines of younger race ships..

yes it does have the ability..

you are saying that it cannot do this to the deathstar since deathstar produces so and so amount of power..

im saying that you cannot make this assertion since the shadows were holding back..during this time, and before..

I am stating that you cannot make the assertion that it will drain the temperature of a ship vastly more advanced than anything they have ever encountered without it already haven been shown to be able to drain that much energy.

It's better than your fanboy speculation about First One superpowers.

speculation.. hardly.

read jms commentaries on the canonicity of novels, and even b5wars.

The canonicity of other sources has no bearing on your speculation of the death cloud's abilities.

Or that the two dimensions are connected at all points.

and that every object in one dimension SOOOO coincidentally happen to have A counterpart with the EXACT coordinates from the other dimension.. I SMELL BIG BLOBS OF BULLSHIT!!..

Too bad, because that's the way it works.

I never claimed that it was identical. I claimed that SW had knowledge of other dimensions.

so sw hyperspace is another dimension that sw ships happen to enter upon activating hyperdrive...that also happens to be identical to sw realspace, in order to explain the object interaction bit... *snicker*

Lose the attitude Adam. You're too stupid to pretend intelligence.

No, I'm going to start claiming that they can't change their speed in that manner because they didn't do so when such a thing would give them instant victory.

your claim has zero relevance.. its canon fact from the shows that we see shadows phasing in and out while theyre still moving..

So what? That doesn't prove that they have the ability to teleport themselves when the shows clearly show them reappearing exactly where you would expect them to given their previous velocity.

whats more.. a whitestar was able to cross the distance between ganymede and jupiter, a distance of 1,070,000km, in 30 seconds.. a speed of 3.6e7ms-1.. or 0.1 of lightspeed.[/quote]
The whitestar did no such thing. It was already moving in that direction when the 30 seconds started, and it never reached its destination before changing directions.

thats a lot faster than the deathstar moving at around 200,000 in 5minutes as it closed in on Yavin.. and shadow battleships can match and even better whitestar speed.

Your argument is nonsensical because it contains no units. Learn how to present your data properly and you might be able to actually make a point.

If they could, then B4 would have been destroyed before the Whitestar could get anywhere near firing range.
[/quote]

what you think those shadow fightrs expected a whitestar to comeback in time, and shoot them from behind... and these are FIghters.. not battleships.. the speed of these fighters doesnt indicate the speed at which the shadow battleships can go.[/quote]
If the fighters are slower than the battleships then the fighters are completely and utterly useless in a conflict.

She controlled less than a hundred. Less than a hundred with no difficulty does not imply billions are possible at all.

non indicator of what shes fully capable of.. though yes she can control tens of people with zero difficulty.. it doesnt mean her limit is 100, or such.. we simply do not know..
we know that she is fully capable of severely disrupting a hivemind being that was in control of a planet..

You are pretending that she has no limits instead of seeing what she has shown herself to be capable of.

when did the emperor directly control a billion beings?..p

Coruscant, Lusankya. I've already explained this one to you.

and why couldnt he afford a little power to spare for those "handful" of rebels..

So you can now somehow name every rebel and their exact location in the galaxy? Wow. You'd better go get a job telling Lucas how episode III is going to turn out before it's written.

[/quote]and does being able to control that many people make him any less vulnerable to lytas psy attacks than that hivemind..[/quote]
The hivemind was controlling willing organisms. That's not a difficult task compared to millions of individual personalities.

The Emperor directly controlled the crews of at least 25,000 ISDs. Thats direct mind control of close to 925 million people.

there is zero indication that he was directly in control of that many people at the same time.. indication similar to the one given about cboath controlling a crew of an isd.

This is a complete and utter lie.

Pg. 49-51: Thrawn: "Are you familiar with the Imperial Fleet's disastrous defeat 5 years ago?"

C'baoth: "I've heard rumors. One of the offworlders who came here spoke about it." C'baoth's gaze drifted to the window, to the palace/crypt visible across the square. "Though only briefly."
...
Thrawn: "Then you must have wondered how a few dozen rebel ships could possibly rout an imperial force that outgunned it atleast ten to one?"

C'baoth: I didn't spend much time with such wonderings," C'baoth said dryly. "I assumed that the Rebels were simply better warriors."

Thrawn: "In a sense, that's true," Thrawn agreed. "The Rebels did indeed fight better, but not because of any special abilities or training. They fought better than the Fleet because the Emperor was dead."

He turned to Pellaeon. "You were there, Captain--you must have noticed it. The sudden loss of coordination between crew members and ships; the loss of efficiency and discipline. The loss, in shortm of that elusive quality we call fighting spirit."

"There was some confusion, yes," Pellaeon said stiffly. He could see where Thrawn was going with this, and he didn't like it a bit. "But nothing that can't be explained by the normal stresses of battle."

"Really? The loss of the Executor--the sudden, last-minute TIE fighter incompetence that brought about the destruction of the Death Star itself--the loss of six other Star Destroyers in engagements that none of them should have any trouble with? All of that nothing but normal battle stress?
...
Thrawn: "The Emperors mind provided you with the strenght and resolve and efficiency. You were as dependant on that presence as if you were borg-implanted into a computer."
...
Thrawn: "The Emperors fatal error was in seeking to control the entire Imperial Fleet personally, as completely and constantly as possible. That over the long run, is what did the damage."

(ref: Heir to the Empire)

even vader had difficulty in using some of that dark force endowed telepathy against boba fett (boba fett graphic novel)..
and he made no attempt to control a crowd of people that ran amok and started beating up on his storm troopers (vaders quest graphic novel).

Strawman. We are not discussing Vader's powers and they have no bearing on the Emperor's.

if the emperor was so powerful a telepath couldnt he spare a small percent of his uber towers to stop the rebels..

"If you strike me down I will become more powerful than you can possible imagine."

also keep in mind.. we are still discussing one uber b5 telepath, lyta vs a dark lord of sith.. shift this into a more realistic scenario in the confines of the debate.. where we have a whole race of telepaths, each more powerful than lyta, versus at most (in this debate) two sith lords..make that a few other races with strong telepaths, since we are including shadows, mindriders, the triad, and lorien here..

All of whom have to get within planetary orbit distance to have a chance at affecting even telepaths through their most powerful amplifiers such as the eye.

[adam warlock]

I am stating that you cannot make the assertion that it will drain the temperature of a ship vastly more advanced than anything they have ever encountered without it already haven been shown to be able to drain that much energy.

you also cannot automatically assume the ds would be unaffected just because it produces far higher energy outputs than the yr ships shown, since the extent of this temp reduction ability hasnt been establish, and esp when theres evidence of the shadows themsevles holding back..

The canonicity of other sources has no bearing on your speculation of the death cloud's abilities.

the clouds being able to reduce temperatures within insulated confines of ships is not speculation its canon..

Too bad, because that's the way it works.

yes your theories on sw hyperspace does look like BS..

Lose the attitude Adam. You're too stupid to pretend intelligence.

lol.. says the one who tries to get his way round b5 hyperspace by saying that sw hyperspace is an entirely different dimension, and that sw has therefore knowledge of another dimension..
nevermind that even if sw hyperspace is another dimension.. it doesnt mean that it is identical to b5 hyperspace..
blockhead.

The whitestar did no such thing. It was already moving in that direction when the 30 seconds started, and it never reached its destination before changing directions.

oh my god.. you havent watched the episode havent you..

the whitestar first appeared on jupiter then went to ganymede to intercept the shadowbattleship.. after angrying the crab the whitestar then TURNED to jupiter to lure it inside.. this journey took less than 30 seconds.

Your argument is nonsensical because it contains no units. Learn how to present your data properly and you might be able to actually make a point.

so now you try to make yourelf look intelligent because of my typing errors :O

if you must know, as if it isnt obvious, thats 200,000km within 5 minutes.. while the whitestar journeyed 1,070,000km in 30 seconds.

If the fighters are slower than the battleships then the fighters are completely and utterly useless in a conflict.

:O.. i think i shall leave this to others..
its just to rich..

nevertheless.. whether or not YOU find the idea stupid or not..
its canon that shadow battleships did display speeds faster than their fighters.. you can moan and bitch.. but its there.

You are pretending that she has no limits instead of seeing what she has shown herself to be capable of.

I am saying that her the full extent of her powers has never been shown.. nevertheless she did far more extradonairy (genius loci) telepathic feats, then most of the jedi, and sith shown in the films, or books.

Coruscant, Lusankya. I've already explained this one to you.

blanking minds != directly controlling them..

The hivemind was controlling willing organisms. That's not a difficult task compared to millions of individual personalities.

the sheer scale of it was far beyond what the emperor controlled, with WILLING subserviants.

This is a complete and utter lie.

wrong..
your example served nothing but to show that the emperor was influencing the fighting will, and assiting the coordination.
i do not see evidence of direct mind control, from the films, and novelisations over any number of isd crew.

Strawman. We are not discussing Vader's powers and they have no bearing on the Emperor's.

dont you mean red herring..
btw yes vaders mental powers wouldnt matter much..

"If you strike me down I will become more powerful than you can possible imagine."

lol.. so obi wans uber ghost played a part..
not at all indicated by any source material.. this is your fanboy speculation.

All of whom have to get within planetary orbit distance to have a chance at affecting even telepaths through their most powerful amplifiers such as the eye.

did i mention shadow hyperspace phasing, and half phasing (detailed by Aog)?.. i already mentioned the eyes range.. and yes it had a pretty good effect on telepaths of lytas level.. again you showed no proof as to how the emperor would defend against attacks such as those by lyta, who layed a hivemind low, despite it being in control of a whole planet...

[Graeme Dice]

you also cannot automatically assume the ds would be unaffected just because it produces far higher energy outputs than the yr ships shown, since the extent of this temp reduction ability hasnt been establish, and esp when theres evidence of the shadows themsevles holding back..

Yes, I can make that assertion, because the energy draining ability has been shown to have a certain ability. Until you can find a source that shows that its actual ability is several million times greater than this you cannot claim that the DS's energy would be reduced.

the clouds being able to reduce temperatures within insulated confines of ships is not speculation its canon..

Temperature reduction is caused by energy drain. In order to reduce the temperature they must drain the energy. The cloud's shown abilities are too small by several million times to do this.

lol.. says the one who tries to get his way round b5 hyperspace by saying that sw hyperspace is an entirely different dimension, and that sw has therefore knowledge of another dimension..
nevermind that even if sw hyperspace is another dimension.. it doesnt mean that it is identical to b5 hyperspace..
blockhead.

I have never claimed that they were identical. You simply provided the evidence that SW has knowledge of other dimensions for me.

The whitestar did no such thing. It was already moving in that direction when the 30 seconds started, and it never reached its destination before changing directions.

oh my god.. you havent watched the episode havent you..

the whitestar first appeared on jupiter then went to ganymede to intercept the shadowbattleship.. after angrying the crab the whitestar then TURNED to jupiter to lure it inside.. this journey took less than 30 seconds.

Yes, I have watched the episode, which is unfortunate for you. The Whitestar never made it to Ganymede. You have no evidence for how far they actually travelled.

so now you try to make yourelf look intelligent because of my typing errors :O

if you must know, as if it isnt obvious, thats 200,000km within 5 minutes.. while the whitestar journeyed 1,070,000km in 30 seconds.

Without units your previous numbers were meaningless. They are still meaningless because the Whitestar was not at ganymede when it turned around.

:O.. i think i shall leave this to others..
its just to rich..

You have presented no argument. Concession accepted.

nevertheless.. whether or not YOU find the idea stupid or not..
its canon that shadow battleships did display speeds faster than their fighters.. you can moan and bitch.. but its there.

Then it's also canon that the first ones are tactical idiots when it comes to designing their vessels.

blanking minds != directly controlling them..

You ignored my argument. The Emperor directly controlled the minds of thoe people.

The hivemind was controlling willing organisms. That's not a difficult task compared to millions of individual personalities.

the sheer scale of it was far beyond what the emperor controlled, with WILLING subserviants.

Controll organisms that require your mind to function is nothing compared to controlling individuals that do not require it.

This is a complete and utter lie.

wrong..
your example served nothing but to show that the emperor was influencing the fighting will, and assiting the coordination.
i do not see evidence of direct mind control, from the films, and novelisations over any number of isd crew.

Another lie. Really Adam. You should try and actually tell the truth about the evidence.

Pg. 201: C'baoth simply stood there, his hands clutching at empty ah; his eyes gazing toward infinity. Pellaeon frowned at him ... and he was just considering asking C'baoth what he was talking about when he happened to glance down into the portside crew pit.
The crewers were sitting stiffly in their chairs, their backs parade-ground straight, their hands folded in their laps, their eyes staring blankly through their consoles. Behind them, the officers were equally stiff, equally motionless, equally oblivious. The starboard crew pit was the same as was the aft bridge. And on the consoles Pellaeon could see, which should have been active with incoming reports from other sectors of the ship, the displays had all gone static.
It was a moment Pellaeon had expected and dreaded since that first visit to Wayland. C'baoth had taken command of the Chimaera.

(ref: The Last Command)

"If you strike me down I will become more powerful than you can possible imagine."

lol.. so obi wans uber ghost played a part..
not at all indicated by any source material.. this is your fanboy speculation.

It is no more speculation than your speculation about the abilities of the first ones beyond what can be shown directly from the show with no increases, embellishments or outright lies.

i already mentioned the eyes range.. and yes it had a pretty good effect on telepaths of lytas level.. again you showed no proof as to how the emperor would defend against attacks such as those by lyta, who layed a hivemind low, despite it being in control of a whole planet...

The Emperor is a Jedi, not a Vorlon created telepath. Tricks that work wonders against Vorlon telepaths will not necessarily have any affect at all on a Jedi.

[adam warlock]

Yes, I can make that assertion, because the energy draining ability has been shown to have a certain ability. Until you can find a source that shows that its actual ability is several million times greater than this you cannot claim that the DS's energy would be reduced.

again.. there is doubt on the shadows using the heat reducing ability to its fullest extent.. because they have been holding back on the yr...just because it was draining so much energy per time from smaller ships, of the yr fleet, means that it would treat larger ships, with obviously larger power outputs, to the same amount of draining.
until you find a quote that no form of energy draining would affect the deathstar.. or that it is shielded from any such attacks..then you cannot assume that it wont be affected, or be affected by a negligible amount.

Temperature reduction is caused by energy drain. In order to reduce the temperature they must drain the energy. The cloud's shown abilities are too small by several million times to do this.

yes temperature reduction happens due to reduction of heat energy.. energy is a general term and can mean binding energy, zero point energy, kinetic energy.. etc.

heat reductions that can be determined using the scene in corianna would be small, yes.. but as i have said again and again..it doesnt mean that thats the extent to which this ability can be set.. since its canon fact, that even during this stage of the shadow war, that the shadows were holding back.

I have never claimed that they were identical. You simply provided the evidence that SW has knowledge of other dimensions for me.

what you type earlier
"Assuming of course that a jump point will be able to open within the shields and near the interference caused by a race that already has a very good understanding of hyperspace.
"
???..
and there is no evidence of sw having knowlegde of other dimensions..since sw hyperspace itself is not a separate dimension from the sw universe, but merely what the sw universe to ships moving at ftl speeds.. read the ics again numb nutz.

not only did you assume b5 hyperspace to be identical to sw hyperspace..
but after retracting claims of them being identical you also proceded to assert that just because empire knows about one other dimensions that it would automatically know about b5 type hyperspace (in a debate that doesnt include the sides having prior knowledge of eachother).. that is a leap isnt it?...

Yes, I have watched the episode, which is unfortunate for you. The Whitestar never made it to Ganymede. You have no evidence for how far they actually travelled.

wrong the whitestar was clearly shown to be in the same view with the shadow battleship when it just got above ganymede.. and this was just after the whitestar fired its first salvo.. and before sheriden ordered a full powered focused burst on the crab (which broke of one of its spines).

and LOL.. even IF the whitestar wasnt completely at ganymede.. that shadow battleship was..

You have presented no argument. Concession accepted.

sorry i dont play by that stupid rule.

Then it's also canon that the first ones are tactical idiots when it comes to designing their vessels.

and u came to this conclusion just because we have one example of the shadows capital ships reaching higher speeds than can be derived from one example of fighters going at speed (which at the time where tugging along a bomb).

nevermind other factors that points out that its not so unreasonable for capital ships to go at higher speeds than fighters, considering the much larger power they can generate and use for, and divert to, thrust.

You ignored my argument. The Emperor directly controlled the minds of thoe people.

no.. you it didnt the indicate the emperor controlling those people FULLY.. as cboath did to an isd crew, or even as lyta did the market crowd..
he couldve merely blank the memories of the past view days -months.

Controll organisms that require your mind to function is nothing compared to controlling individuals that do not require it.

individuals that are willing participants within in the empire in the first place..
and again there is no evidence of the emperor being in full control of that many individuals at the same time.

Another lie. Really Adam. You should try and actually tell the truth about the evidence.

all the evidence, films and that quote you provided, doesnt show the emperor to be in full control of each individual within each isd, at the same time..
at most he was willing them on and helping with fleet mobilisation and coordination..
that is not being in full control of multiple individuals as shown in scenes with cboath controlling isd crew, and lyta controlling people in market area.

It is no more speculation than your speculation about the abilities of the first ones beyond what can be shown directly from the show with no increases, embellishments or outright lies.

speculation.
guess what.. b5 is consists of more stories/info than those just shown on the televised show.

obi wans ghost indeed.

The Emperor is a Jedi, not a Vorlon created telepath.

no the emperor is THE dark lord of the sith...
and he doesnt have to be a vorlon created telepath to be affected..
kosh, and lyta were able to affect non vorlon created people just the same..

Tricks that work wonders against Vorlon telepaths will not necessarily have any affect at all on a Jedi.

??..no vorlon telepath was tricked.. unless of course its ulkesh,, but then that does factor in a surviving piece of kosh, and the first one lorien..

now unless you can provide evidence that the emperor can handily defend himself against levels of telepathic attack such as those from lyta, then theres no way he can defend himself against a vorlon.. and no saying that he uses the force, and that force telepathy is different , doesnt cut it.

[Mechwolf]

It is simple. The Death Star 1 takes up geosynchronous orbit over the Vorlon homeworld, like it does to destroy Alderaan. In the 15-30eseconds it takes to for the DS1 to power up the Superlaser, as shown during the battle of Yavin, a Vorlon battlecruiser waiting in hyperspace recieves the DS1's postion and opens a jump point in the middle of the DS1, crippling it at the very least, possibly destroying it.

Keep in mind that the superlaser housed within the DS1 is nearly the full radius of the DS1. The Vorlon planet-killer, which destroys planets in a similar fashion as the DS1, is only 8,000m in length. Canon indicates that there were 2 planet-killers. Official sources, Agents Of Gaming, says there were a total of 3. Tell me again which vessel is the more advanced?

Also, the whole B5 Telepath vs Darkside force powers is mute since neither can be proven with numbers. Especially since it is unlikely that the Emperor would be on board the DS1.

[Rathark]

As I have mentioned before, B5 tends to contradict itself. While the 8 km length for the Vorlon Planet Killer would seem to correspond with Marcus's statement, visual evidence against what are apparently Vorlon Heavy Cruisers would suggest that the VPK is much larger. Which is more correct? Who knows? Perhaps the White Star's scanners went completely nuts when it entered the VPK's hyperspatial fold. Perhaps the limited perspective of Marcus only allowed him to judge the VPK's vertical thickness, assuming it to be a proportionately scaled-up version of other Vorlon warships. Nonetheless, Tim Earls states that the Drahk Mothership is 52 km long. Although obviously nowhere near as powerful as the VPK no matter what the size difference, it stands to reason that First Ones could construct equally collosal starships if they needed to.

If First Ones are supposed to be far more intelligent than humans, then I would assume they would learn of the Death Star's weakness very quickly.[/quote]

[Master of Ossus]

It is simple. The Death Star 1 takes up geosynchronous orbit over the Vorlon homeworld, like it does to destroy Alderaan. In the 15-30eseconds it takes to for the DS1 to power up the Superlaser, as shown during the battle of Yavin, a Vorlon battlecruiser waiting in hyperspace recieves the DS1's postion and opens a jump point in the middle of the DS1, crippling it at the very least, possibly destroying it.

Keep in mind that the superlaser housed within the DS1 is nearly the full radius of the DS1. The Vorlon planet-killer, which destroys planets in a similar fashion as the DS1, is only 8,000m in length. Canon indicates that there were 2 planet-killers. Official sources, Agents Of Gaming, says there were a total of 3. Tell me again which vessel is the more advanced?

Also, the whole B5 Telepath vs Darkside force powers is mute since neither can be proven with numbers. Especially since it is unlikely that the Emperor would be on board the DS1.

The DS is more advanced. The VPK is not a true Planet Destroyer, like the DS, and the DS's firing mechanism does not necessitate the amount of space it used in the final design. Please recall that both the DS prototype, and Darksaber were MUCH smaller than the DS. Darksaber was essentially a VPK, and about the same length, but of less volume. Tell me which one is more advanced.

[Mechwolf]

The Dark Saber, to the best of my knowledge, was based on the DS2 designs & specifications. We are talking about the DS1. There was a significant technological development between the DS1 & the DS2. This is "Death Star 1 vs. The Vorlons". not every Star Wars super-weapon vs the Vorlons.

the DS prototype was 120,000m in diameter.

Even if the VPK is 52,000m in length, it is still more adavnced because it reduces planets to "ash & meteroid fragments"(B5tech.com) just like the DS1 does.