I am not an ape!

Rocker5150 · Post by **Rocker5150** » 2005-07-27 05:57am

In a statement reminiscent of the movie 'Inherit the Wind', my friend actually said to me that he was not related to the apes. Just when I thought I had been able to explain evolution to him, it seems as if I need to start all over! Anyone who hasn't seen the movie should check it out- it's about the Scopes monkey trial.

As in the usual creationist argument, there were no explainations of any merit. Nothing more than wild speculation with absolutly no basis. For example, he has a big problem with the evolution of intelligence. It couldn't evolve, but must have been 'implanted' by something of a higher power than us. Since the neanderthal had a higher skull capacity then modern humans, I asked him why the deity wouldn't have given intelligence to the being with the higher capacity. He danced around a bit without giving an answer....no surprise!

It is almost as if he can't let himself go along with the majority. Any scientific description is in question. The idea of agreeing with the community is apparantly the last resort only after exhausting any other possibility no matter how crazy or incredible. And even then, there is extreme reluctance! Any 'idea' that enters his mind is a possible explaination that will destroy scientific findings! He equates the theory of evolution (as well as the big bang theory) to, at best, a hypothesis. Just like most creationists, he does not seem to know the actual definition of the word 'theory', and totally disorts the entire meaning. Hypothesis, theory, passing thought.....all the same! Mass concensus among the scientific community? Meaningless! There MUST be a better was to explain these things.

Once again I fell back to the argument I love which is to say that what he believes completly puts him at odds with practically every display in the Museun of Natural History. Even he sees the obvious problems with that and usually backs off a bit.....but I know the debate will continue again. I am really anxious to go down to the museums with him. In the direct face of such evidence, there may be hope. If nothing else, I will embarrass him to the nth degree by loudly asking him about the bogus exhibits.....that should be interesting!

-Kevin

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2005-07-27 06:33am

Go stand in a very crowded area, close your eyes and listen. Gave me all the evidence I needed to think we evolved from some very noisy monkeys

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2005-07-27 06:35am

wautd wrote:Go stand in a very crowded area, close your eyes and listen. Gave me all the evidence I needed to think we evolved from some very noisy monkeys

correction, for all I care: we still are monkeys. Clever, noisy monkeys

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2005-07-27 03:24pm

You Are An Ape, by L. Aron Nelson.

He'll have to say that all of biology is wrong to disagree with that.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2005-07-28 06:11pm

Personally, I take offense to the fact that we aren't ape-like enough. Apes kick ass; they can hang from trees for many times the length that we puny humans can; and launching one's self through trees seems like an awesome way to move around.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2005-07-28 06:21pm

wolveraptor wrote:Personally, I take offense to the fact that we aren't ape-like enough. Apes kick ass; they can hang from trees for many times the length that we puny humans can; and launching one's self through trees seems like an awesome way to move around.

To have the strength of a full-grown chimpanzee would just rock: who wouldn't want to be able to tear someone else limb from limb? Seriously. IIRC, from the PurpleTatoo ban thread, chimps tore a guy's scrotum. If I could do that, nobody'd dick around with me, that's for sure.

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » 2005-07-28 06:46pm

wolveraptor wrote:Personally, I take offense to the fact that we aren't ape-like enough. Apes kick ass; they can hang from trees for many times the length that we puny humans can; and launching one's self through trees seems like an awesome way to move around.

We build harnesses that would let us hang from trees until we starve ... still working on speederbikes for that rush through the trees, though.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2005-07-28 06:48pm

Chmee wrote: We build harnesses that would let us hang from trees until we starve ... still working on speederbikes for that rush through the trees, though.

No need for speeders, we just have to build a massively overpowered helicopter with ten ton cutting blades for rotors.

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » 2005-07-28 06:50pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Chmee wrote: We build harnesses that would let us hang from trees until we starve ... still working on speederbikes for that rush through the trees, though.
No need for speeders, we just have to build a massively overpowered helicopter with ten ton cutting blades for rotors.

Please, you're giving me nasty The World Is Not Enough flashbacks.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2005-07-28 06:50pm

I don't like the idea that I'm related to by backward, redneck, racist, obnoxious, abrasive uncle, but that doesn't make it not so.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2005-07-30 12:06am

Chmee wrote:
wolveraptor wrote:Personally, I take offense to the fact that we aren't ape-like enough. Apes kick ass; they can hang from trees for many times the length that we puny humans can; and launching one's self through trees seems like an awesome way to move around.
We build harnesses that would let us hang from trees until we starve ... still working on speederbikes for that rush through the trees, though.

Helicopters and harnesses...just aren't the same thing as being able to do it naturally and effortlessly. Besides, it would make our action flick industry kick so much more ass.

Utsanomiko · Post by **Utsanomiko** » 2005-07-30 12:24am

I always wonder if such people claim we're also somehow not mammals or even vertebrates. How conveniently coincidental that we have all the same physical characteristics, were it not the case.

But of course they're the sorts who will believe absolutely anything, and in turn can stay perfectly ignorant about the fact we're a very specific and categorizable animal. Shit, they'd proudly insist we're made of dust if the thought made them comfortable.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2005-07-30 11:31am

Utsanomiko wrote:Shit, they'd proudly insist we're made of dust if the thought made them comfortable.

They do insist (Genesis 2).

Utsanomiko · Post by **Utsanomiko** » 2005-07-30 11:40am

Surlethe wrote:
Utsanomiko wrote:Shit, they'd proudly insist we're made of dust if the thought made them comfortable.
They do insist (Genesis 2).

Yeah, but it's not exactly one of the things they like to bring up all that much.

LapsedPacifist · Post by **LapsedPacifist** » 2005-07-30 11:44am

wolveraptor wrote: Helicopters and harnesses...just aren't the same thing as being able to do it naturally and effortlessly. Besides, it would make our action flick industry kick so much more ass.

Effortlessly? I'm sure there's a fuckton of calories being expended to swing around. It looks like hard work to me.

LP

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2005-07-30 12:22pm

If that were true, then most apes wouldn't frolick in the trees, it being such a waste of energy. It must be tougher for the larger species, though, such as orangs. Adults generally don't speed through the trees due to their weight. What I was really thinking of were gibbons. Some can move through the trees faster than Olympic sprinters, I've heard.

Trek and Buffy suck · Post by **Trek and Buffy suck** » 2005-07-30 11:59pm

Christians are chronically retarded. This is my first post, by the way. Evolution is a FACT, and we ARE upright hairless weak apes with big brains, regardless of whether or not stupid Christians like it.

FedRebel · Post by **FedRebel** » 2005-07-31 12:52am

Trek and Buffy suck wrote:Christians are chronically retarded. This is my first post, by the way. Evolution is a FACT

[Creationist] NO! EVOLUTION IS ONLY A THEORY!!! It is all an ilusion perpatrated by Satan to create disbelief in the alimighty. The "FACT" is that God created man before all other life and that one man and one woman gave rise to the entire human race as we know it. [/Creationist]

Ofcousre evolution is essentially proven, however in this religious world of ours people will still ignore the mountains facts in favor of one story written by a mystery man a few thousand years ago

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-07-31 01:09am

Trek and Buffy suck wrote:Christians are chronically retarded. This is my first post, by the way. Evolution is a FACT, and we ARE upright hairless weak apes with big brains, regardless of whether or not stupid Christians like it.

Creationists are chronically retarded. Not all christians are Creationists.
There's a difference.

Trek and Buffy suck · Post by **Trek and Buffy suck** » 2005-07-31 01:22am

FedRebel wrote:
Trek and Buffy suck wrote:Christians are chronically retarded. This is my first post, by the way. Evolution is a FACT
[Creationist] NO! EVOLUTION IS ONLY A THEORY!!! It is all an ilusion perpatrated by Satan to create disbelief in the alimighty. The "FACT" is that God created man before all other life and that one man and one woman gave rise to the entire human race as we know it. [/Creationist]

Ofcousre evolution is essentially proven, however in this religious world of ours people will still ignore the mountains facts in favor of one story written by a mystery man a few thousand years ago

Two things that all Christians ignore:
1. There is no explanation for there being different races of Men by skin colour in their stupid Biblical explanation.
2. They probably *especially* ignore this one: If all the ppl on Earth are descended from the same two people, then we are all *REALLY* inbred.

Zero · Post by **Zero** » 2005-07-31 01:29am

Trek and Buffy suck wrote: Two things that all Christians ignore:
1. There is no explanation for there being different races of Men by skin colour in their stupid Biblical explanation.
2. They probably *especially* ignore this one: If all the ppl on Earth are descended from the same two people, then we are all *REALLY* inbred.

You're wrong. Not all christians believe that. As has been said in this same thread, not all christians are creationists. Besides, mormons will claim it's a curse from god, so there's a bullshit explanation for the first.

As for the second.. aren't we all pretty inbred anyways? I mean, don't we all relate back to one woman anyways? I thought they knew that because of some stuff with... mitochondrial DNA, or something like that.

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2005-07-31 01:30am

Trek and Buffy suck wrote:
FedRebel wrote:
Trek and Buffy suck wrote:Christians are chronically retarded. This is my first post, by the way. Evolution is a FACT
[Creationist] NO! EVOLUTION IS ONLY A THEORY!!! It is all an ilusion perpatrated by Satan to create disbelief in the alimighty. The "FACT" is that God created man before all other life and that one man and one woman gave rise to the entire human race as we know it. [/Creationist]

Ofcousre evolution is essentially proven, however in this religious world of ours people will still ignore the mountains facts in favor of one story written by a mystery man a few thousand years ago

Two things that all Christians ignore:
1. There is no explanation for there being different races of Men by skin colour in their stupid Biblical explanation.

Actually, isn't there a story about how one of Noah's sons' face was darkened after he saw his father drunk?

2. They probably *especially* ignore this one: If all the ppl on Earth are descended from the same two people, then we are all *REALLY* inbred.

Most of them would probably just take that as evidence of the real world conforming to what's said in the Bible.

FedRebel · Post by **FedRebel** » 2005-07-31 01:37am

Trek and Buffy suck wrote: Two things that all Christians ignore:

Christian and Creationist are not interchangeable

A number of Christians accept evolution

It's only a minority of these followers of Christ who defend Genesis with such rabid motivation

1. There is no explanation for there being different races of Men by skin colour in their stupid Biblical explanation.

Try and visit a KKK meeting some time[/sarcasam]

2. They probably *especially* ignore this one: If all the ppl on Earth are descended from the same two people, then we are all *REALLY* inbred.

Given the consequences of inbreeding the human race wouldn't survive too long under the Genesis model.

You have to keep in mind that these people think humanity is special, so more than likely they'd claim that God prevented humanity from descending into insanity, mental retardation, and extinction

Utsanomiko · Post by **Utsanomiko** » 2005-07-31 02:06am

The answer to number 2: Cain's and Seth's wives were the people the other gods created. You know, like Baal and Astarte and all those nasty beings (though they weren't quite as vicious and jealous as Yahweh).

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2005-07-31 07:30am

FedRebel wrote:[Creationist] NO! EVOLUTION IS ONLY A THEORY!!! It is all an ilusion perpatrated by Satan to create disbelief in the alimighty. The "FACT" is that God created man before all other life and that one man and one woman gave rise to the entire human race as we know it. [/Creationist]

Ofcousre evolution is essentially proven, however in this religious world of ours people will still ignore the mountains facts in favor of one story written by a mystery man a few thousand years ago

Actually, Evolution is a theory, not a 'fact'. ("Fact" is a fairly dangerous term in science. We thought that gravity was an attractive force between objects with mass, that was a 'fact' until a hundred years or so ago).

The important thing to recognise here is that theories, because they have stood up to criticism, observation, and review and not been disproved, is that theories are the most reputable and trustworthy parts of science.

What creationists mean when they say "only a theory" is actually "only a hypothesis", because the rest of science, the stuff that comes after the hypothesis is formed, is completely alien to their model of operation. Science immediately seeks to challenge authority, religion must accept it.

I know that Mike has put forward the scientific method as part of the reason that science produces better answers than religion, but that's just a simplification for people who won't understand what happens next. The biggest reason is that science is always being self-regulated by peer review. An individual scientist can be wrong, they can skew results by omission or commission, but the rest of their field can see that they've done that and point it out, and improve or disprove the hypothesis. When improved enough, a hypothesis might, if it's lucky, get to be a theory.

It's not the "Theory" in "only a theory" you should take issue with, it's the "Only".