Conquistadores=Aztec Gods, refuted myth...

SLAM: debunk creationism, pseudoscience, and superstitions. Discuss logic and morality.

Moderator: Alyrium Denryle

Post Reply
User avatar
Frank Hipper
Overfiend of the Superego
Posts: 12882
Joined: 2002-10-17 08:48am
Location: Hamilton, Ohio?

Conquistadores=Aztec Gods, refuted myth...

Post by Frank Hipper »

This lengthy article goes quite some distance to explain away the story of how Cortes was seen to be Quetzalcoatl returned; particularly damning is the fact that the link between Cortes and Quetzalcoatl was not made until decades after the conquest.
Today, most educated persons in the United States, Europe, and Latin America are fully versed in this account, as readers of this piece can undoubtedly affirm. In fact, however, there is little evidence that the indigenous people ever seriously believed the newcomers were gods, and there is no meaningful evidence that any story about Quetzalcoatl's returning from the east ever existed before the conquest. A number of scholars of early Mexico are aware of this, but few others are. The cherished narrative is alive and well, and in urgent need of critical attention.
Here's a particularly interesting paragraph from further on in the article:
What, then, were the indigenous thinking? Available evidence indicates that the Aztecs responded to their situation with clear-sighted analysis of the technological differential, rather than by prostrating themselves before the "white gods." As difficult as it is, let us first consider what we know of Moctezuma's thoughts. The version of the king's response that later became popular was the vision of Moctezuma sighing and lapsing into paralyzing depression, but the evidence that we have about the steps taken by Moctezuma indicates that he actually behaved like the experienced twenty-year sovereign he was. All sources agree that, after the first sighting of a Spanish ship in 1517, he had the sea watched from various vantage points. When Cortés and his men landed near today's Vera Cruz and began conversing with the locals, Moctezuma sent court painters to record the numbers of men,"deer," and boats. Even though the Spaniards saw these paintings as quaint, we must keep in mind that Moctezuma moved within a world in which accurate counts concerning distant territories were kept as pictoglyphic records as a matter of course. As the Spanish began their ascent toward Tenochtitlan, Moctezuma organized a veritable war room. "A report of everything that was happening was given and relayed to Moctezuma. Some of the messengers would be arriving as others were leaving ... There was no time when they weren't listening, when reports weren't being given." Cortés also reported that Moctezuma's messengers were present in every town they visited, watching every step they took. Bernal Díaz said by the time the Spaniards got to the capital, the sermon they had given frequently along the way had been repeated so often to Moctezuma that he asked them not to give it again, as the arguments were by now familiar to him. Despite his intelligence and his organizational apparatus, however, Moctezuma still had the problem that his frame of reference was not as wide as that of the Spaniards: Durán's informant said that he called for priests and sages from different parts of the kingdom to consult their libraries and traditions and tell him who these strangers were, but they could find nothing. Only one man said anything useful, describing the power of the Spaniards and mentioning that the first explorers were merely there to scout a route, that others would return.
Take the time to read the whole thing, very interesting...
Image
Life is all the eternity you get, use it wisely.
User avatar
The Duchess of Zeon
Gözde
Posts: 14566
Joined: 2002-09-18 01:06am
Location: Exiled in the Pale of Settlement.

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

I don't think the Spaniards themselves ever really saw the matter as anything else than a contest between some exceptionally Machiavellian individuals who were willing to manipulate tribes and empires and kill hundreds of thousands for personal gain, because that's exactly what the situation was, for both the Spanish themselves and for their Aztec opponents.
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. -- Wikipedia's No Original Research policy page.

In 1966 the Soviets find something on the dark side of the Moon. In 2104 they come back. -- Red Banner / White Star, a nBSG continuation story. Updated to Chapter 4.0 -- 14 January 2013.
User avatar
wolveraptor
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4042
Joined: 2004-12-18 06:09pm

Post by wolveraptor »

Finally, an explanation for the technological gap between the Old and the New world. I always wondered why Americans never developed iron-working.
"If one needed proof that a guitar was more than wood and string, that a song was more than notes and words, and that a man could be more than a name and a few faded pictures, then Robert Johnson’s recordings were all one could ask for."

- Herb Bowie, Reason to Rock
User avatar
Imperial Overlord
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11978
Joined: 2004-08-19 04:30am
Location: The Tower at Charm

Post by Imperial Overlord »

wolveraptor wrote:Finally, an explanation for the technological gap between the Old and the New world. I always wondered why Americans never developed iron-working.
The inhabitents of the North West Coast used iron.
The Excellent Prismatic Spray. For when you absolutely, positively must kill a motherfucker. Accept no substitutions. Contact a magician of the later Aeons for details. Some conditions may apply.
User avatar
Frank Hipper
Overfiend of the Superego
Posts: 12882
Joined: 2002-10-17 08:48am
Location: Hamilton, Ohio?

Post by Frank Hipper »

Imperial Overlord wrote:
wolveraptor wrote:Finally, an explanation for the technological gap between the Old and the New world. I always wondered why Americans never developed iron-working.
The inhabitents of the North West Coast used iron.
Yeah, but they found it washed up on the beach, instead of processing it themselves.
Image
Life is all the eternity you get, use it wisely.
User avatar
Imperial Overlord
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11978
Joined: 2004-08-19 04:30am
Location: The Tower at Charm

Post by Imperial Overlord »

Some of it they found washed up on the beach, some may have come from somewhere else. And they did cold forging by themselves. There is a theory going about iron trade across the Berring Straight, but not too much investigation at the moment. They had a really good eye for steel, which pissed off a lot of European traders who thought that they could just foist junk off on them.
The Excellent Prismatic Spray. For when you absolutely, positively must kill a motherfucker. Accept no substitutions. Contact a magician of the later Aeons for details. Some conditions may apply.
User avatar
wolveraptor
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4042
Joined: 2004-12-18 06:09pm

Post by wolveraptor »

Well, they sure as hell didn't apply it, and conquer all their neighbors, probably due to a lack of supply and consistency in forgery.
"If one needed proof that a guitar was more than wood and string, that a song was more than notes and words, and that a man could be more than a name and a few faded pictures, then Robert Johnson’s recordings were all one could ask for."

- Herb Bowie, Reason to Rock
User avatar
Imperial Overlord
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11978
Joined: 2004-08-19 04:30am
Location: The Tower at Charm

Post by Imperial Overlord »

They used copper (which they could get in blocks weighing in up to several tons) as well as iron. The whole NW coast did. Mainly on lance head (up to two feet long) and short swords/dagger (about the size of a gladius). Those are nice weapons to be sure, but they won't give you an automatic win when most of your neighbours have the same tech. And it isn't really that much of an advantage against your more primitive neighbors who can stab/shoot you with obsidian or flint headed weapons or crush you head with a stout club.
The Excellent Prismatic Spray. For when you absolutely, positively must kill a motherfucker. Accept no substitutions. Contact a magician of the later Aeons for details. Some conditions may apply.
User avatar
wolveraptor
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4042
Joined: 2004-12-18 06:09pm

Post by wolveraptor »

Note: An obsidian blade can do exactly shit to a piece of iron/steel armor, if it's well-crafted. Also, they needn't face a technologically similar enemy at first. The easiest way for them to build an Empire would've been to conquer tribes farther inland (with more primitive tech), taking their lands to establish agriculture in those regions. With sufficient resources, they could then overwhelm their enemies on the North west coast.
"If one needed proof that a guitar was more than wood and string, that a song was more than notes and words, and that a man could be more than a name and a few faded pictures, then Robert Johnson’s recordings were all one could ask for."

- Herb Bowie, Reason to Rock
User avatar
Imperial Overlord
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11978
Joined: 2004-08-19 04:30am
Location: The Tower at Charm

Post by Imperial Overlord »

They didn't have armour of anything other than cedar bark and the use of iron and copper was not exclusive to the Haida (although they have the nicest looking weapons). And they weren't empire builders like the Romans or the Aztecs, although that doesn't make them pacifists.
The Excellent Prismatic Spray. For when you absolutely, positively must kill a motherfucker. Accept no substitutions. Contact a magician of the later Aeons for details. Some conditions may apply.
User avatar
Frank Hipper
Overfiend of the Superego
Posts: 12882
Joined: 2002-10-17 08:48am
Location: Hamilton, Ohio?

Post by Frank Hipper »

Imperial Overlord wrote:They didn't have armour of anything other than cedar bark and the use of iron and copper was not exclusive to the Haida (although they have the nicest looking weapons). And they weren't empire builders like the Romans or the Aztecs, although that doesn't make them pacifists.
Who needs warfare when you have such charming traditions like Potlatch? :lol:
Image
Life is all the eternity you get, use it wisely.
User avatar
wolveraptor
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4042
Joined: 2004-12-18 06:09pm

Post by wolveraptor »

Jebus, what a bunch of fucking wusses. Had they any balls, like the Huns, they'd have raided and killed and kicked so much ass. Wasn't anyone on the NW coast into ruining other people's shit?
"If one needed proof that a guitar was more than wood and string, that a song was more than notes and words, and that a man could be more than a name and a few faded pictures, then Robert Johnson’s recordings were all one could ask for."

- Herb Bowie, Reason to Rock
User avatar
Xon
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6206
Joined: 2002-07-16 06:12am
Location: Western Australia

Post by Xon »

wolveraptor wrote:Jebus, what a bunch of fucking wusses. Had they any balls, like the Huns, they'd have raided and killed and kicked so much ass. Wasn't anyone on the NW coast into ruining other people's shit?
Sure there were, they just werent very good at it.

The utter lack of the wheel or horses(or an equivalent draft animal) made bulk moving of materials(including people) overland rediciously worthless, which keeps most of the North America continent locked at a fairly low tech level.
"Okay, I'll have the truth with a side order of clarity." ~ Dr. Daniel Jackson.
"Reality has a well-known liberal bias." ~ Stephen Colbert
"One Drive, One Partition, the One True Path" ~ ars technica forums - warrens - on hhd partitioning schemes.
User avatar
Imperial Overlord
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11978
Joined: 2004-08-19 04:30am
Location: The Tower at Charm

Post by Imperial Overlord »

Remember, the largest domesticated animal in pre-European North America is the dog.

The Potlatch is fun. Some people maybe under the delusion that it was hippy share the wealth time, but what it actually was a show of conspicious consumption. You're showing off that you have the wealth to throw a big party and give out really nice presents. Of course, the rich people get the nicest gifts and get theirs first. When Europeans showed up, some of the nuveau riche who made a mint trading with them insisted that they were so important that they should get their gifts before the potlatch.
The Excellent Prismatic Spray. For when you absolutely, positively must kill a motherfucker. Accept no substitutions. Contact a magician of the later Aeons for details. Some conditions may apply.
User avatar
CJvR
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2926
Joined: 2002-07-11 06:36pm
Location: K.P.E.V. 1

Post by CJvR »

To bad the Vikings didn't manage to establish a permanent precense in America, That would have introduced both horses and metalworking as well as ship building. Sometimes it is perhaps not a good idea to throw the invaders into the sea...
I thought Roman candles meant they were imported. - Kelly Bundy
12 yards long, two lanes wide it's 65 tons of American pride, Canyonero! - Simpsons
Support the KKK environmental program - keep the Arctic white!
User avatar
Frank Hipper
Overfiend of the Superego
Posts: 12882
Joined: 2002-10-17 08:48am
Location: Hamilton, Ohio?

Post by Frank Hipper »

Imperial Overlord wrote:Remember, the largest domesticated animal in pre-European North America is the dog.

The Potlatch is fun. Some people maybe under the delusion that it was hippy share the wealth time, but what it actually was a show of conspicious consumption. You're showing off that you have the wealth to throw a big party and give out really nice presents. Of course, the rich people get the nicest gifts and get theirs first. When Europeans showed up, some of the nuveau riche who made a mint trading with them insisted that they were so important that they should get their gifts before the potlatch.
Yeah, but the insidious thing about Potlatch is the obligation you placed on those people recieving gifts; they had to throw at least as extravagant a party in the future.
You could destroy your rivals by throwing them a party and giving them presents, I think that's a revenge strategy carried to a level of sublime artistry never seen outside the Pacific North-West...
Image
Life is all the eternity you get, use it wisely.
User avatar
wolveraptor
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4042
Joined: 2004-12-18 06:09pm

Post by wolveraptor »

That's true. SA had the llama, and there were Empires there. Ironically, the people with conquering tech lived where there was no feasible conquering method, and the people without conquering tech were able to conquer, and subsequently got their shit ruined when the big bad Euros came.

If only they had domesticated the bison, or better yet, the grizzly bear. :twisted:
"If one needed proof that a guitar was more than wood and string, that a song was more than notes and words, and that a man could be more than a name and a few faded pictures, then Robert Johnson’s recordings were all one could ask for."

- Herb Bowie, Reason to Rock
Post Reply