Vader's speed in the OT

Imperator Galacticus · Post by **Imperator Galacticus** » 2005-07-27 09:17pm

I've been contemplating this since ROTS came out why Vader is so slow slow compared to his counterpart, Grevious. From what I've gathered most outspoken members on this board agree that Vader should be just as fast as Grevious because of his cybernetic prosthetics.

But would those really make a difference? Grevious unlike Vader has the skeletal structure to support his metal arms and legs, which is sturdy and powerful enough on its own. Vader's prosthetics are only attached to his elbows and knees, which in turn are connected to a badly burned torso and severed appendages. Wouldn't how quickly Darth Vader can move be dictated by the strength and condition of what is left of his organic thighs and upper arm muscles?

Now, that wouldn't mean Vader is actually weak. He clearly has enough strength in his muscles and cybernetic forearm to lift a man up into the air and crush his neck without a sway. But he may not be able to handle very fast gestures and movements because of his flesh wounds. What do you guys think?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-07-27 09:22pm

Vader's artificially regulated breathing probably precludes protracted exertions of a physical nature, so he has to rely more heavily on the Force to win battles. So he'll move slower and concentrate more with his powers to limit his opponent's movements.

Grievous did not have this option. He had to rely on sheer speed and number of arms because he did not have any Force powers.

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-07-27 09:30pm

With regard to Vader's remaining muscles, it's pretty clear that in the 20 years between RotS and ANH Vader underwent some serious bulking up- leaving aside that he's visibly thinner in RotS because Hayden wore the suit, it works in-universe since it would make no sense for Hayden to suddenly acquire the form of a body builder (Prowse) mere hours after he sustained his injuries.

As for speed, Vader can be very fast when he needs to be- watch him slice off Luke's hand in TESB, or when he attacks Luke after coming up the stairs in RotJ ("You are unwise to lower your defences!") It's not exactly a snoozer. As to whether he can sustain it for long periods is another issue.

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2005-07-27 09:50pm

Didn't Vader's breathing seem to speed up when he fought though? I'd have to re-watch... but it seems like it would be logical for the system to do so when more oxygen was required.

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2005-07-28 12:32am

This guy breathes hard just from walking. His time on Mustafar gave him the lungs of a 50 year old chain smoker.

Macross · Post by **Macross** » 2005-07-28 12:58am

There wasnt much of Grevious left. Just his brain and his heart (if I recall correctly). He was pretty much a droid with some organic parts.

Vader on the other hand, is the exact oposite. Machines were used to reconstruct his body. He is still limited by his organic parts.

Kenoshi · Post by **Kenoshi** » 2005-07-28 04:07am

In ROTJ when the Emperor jolts Vader with his force lightning and Vader's skeleton lights up it's evident that his neck vertibrae are metal, and his left arm seems to have a metal ball socket...could the rest of his spine and limbs be reinforced as well? Maybe modifications were made over time after the hasty patch-up they gave him in ROTS?

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2005-07-28 08:40am

Kenoshi wrote:In ROTJ when the Emperor jolts Vader with his force lightning and Vader's skeleton lights up it's evident that his neck vertibrae are metal, and his left arm seems to have a metal ball socket...could the rest of his spine and limbs be reinforced as well? Maybe modifications were made over time after the hasty patch-up they gave him in ROTS?

Minor nitpick; I believe that it was just one vertibrae and not all of them

petesampras · Post by **petesampras** » 2005-07-28 10:36am

Darth Wong wrote:Vader's artificially regulated breathing probably precludes protracted exertions of a physical nature, so he has to rely more heavily on the Force to win battles. So he'll move slower and concentrate more with his powers to limit his opponent's movements.

Grievous did not have this option. He had to rely on sheer speed and number of arms because he did not have any Force powers.

Grevious had no force powers?

A number of times in the clone wars he goes toe-to-toe with multiple jedi.
Seems fairly uber for someone with no force powers at all.

How does he deal with their telekinesis?

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2005-07-28 10:38am

LordShaithis wrote:Didn't Vader's breathing seem to speed up when he fought though? I'd have to re-watch... but it seems like it would be logical for the system to do so when more oxygen was required.

When he fought Luke in TESB, it was easy to defeat the younger Jedi. But in ROTJ, once he pissed Luke off and made him use his anger to fight, Vader couldn't keep up with him. He lost his balance, and his respiratory systems couldn't keep up with the demand Vader was asking of his body. After Luke cut off his hand, he was wheezing much like he was after hhe threw the Emperor into the Death Star core.

Zwinmar · Post by **Zwinmar** » 2005-07-28 11:55am

A part could be phsycological. A slow, methodical enemy in some ways is terrifying

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-07-28 12:00pm

petesampras wrote:How does he deal with their telekinesis?

fear, imidation and suprise, Grievous swings his sabers (6 in total (all hand plus his feet)) so fast that Jedi have time consentrate on anything else then blocking the blows (but if there's pause and opponent is not scared shitless Grievous get owned by the Force skill of the Jedi).

petesampras · Post by **petesampras** » 2005-07-28 12:18pm

Lord Revan wrote:
petesampras wrote:How does he deal with their telekinesis?
fear, imidation and suprise, Grievous swings his sabers (6 in total (all hand plus his feet)) so fast that Jedi have time consentrate on anything else then blocking the blows (but if there's pause and opponent is not scared shitless Grievous get owned by the Force skill of the Jedi).

A number of his battles against Jedi have plenty of 'stand-off' periods where Grevious is telling them how they are gonna die or such like. Plenty of time to use the force for the Jedi.

Also we see the Jedi using force telekinesis on background objects and magnaguards during some of his fights against them. Just never on Grevious himself. The hammerhead shark looking jedi has time to use his blowing attack on Grevious.

I guess what I'm saying is that watching the fights he is involved with, he is not putting all the jedi under constant pressure all the time. So if they fail to use telekinesis on him there must be some other reason.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-07-28 12:27pm

petesampras wrote:A number of his battles against Jedi have plenty of 'stand-off' periods where Grevious is telling them how they are gonna die or such like. Plenty of time to use the force for the Jedi.

Also we see the Jedi using force telekinesis on background objects and magnaguards during some of his fights against them. Just never on Grevious himself. The hammerhead shark looking jedi has time to use his blowing attack on Grevious.

I guess what I'm saying is that watching the fights he is involved with, he is not putting all the jedi under constant pressure all the time. So if they fail to use telekinesis on him there must be some other reason.

look at this

fear, imidation and suprise, Grievous swings his sabers (6 in total (all hand plus his feet)) so fast that Jedi have time consentrate on anything else then blocking the blows (but if there's pause and opponent is not scared shitless Grievous get owned by the Force skill of the Jedi).

rocks or other backround objects don't attack you and Magnadroids don't use 6(or even 2) lightsabers at same time thew whole point that the Jedi are too scared to think straight, that's why Obi-wan can Force TK Grievous out of the fight, but Grievous can go against 6 Jedi and win.

Zwinmar · Post by **Zwinmar** » 2005-07-28 12:51pm

Looks like bad screen writing them, though Obi Wan was a Master

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-07-28 01:29pm

Zwinmar wrote:Looks like bad screen writing them, though Obi Wan was a Master

It isn't bad writing IMHO, infact I consider it realisic writing (the Jedi are too scared to think that the Force TK they're using on inert objects or droids would just as well against Grievous, but Kenobi who kept his cool Force TKs Grievous the first chance he gets (and causes Grievous to run away (again))) and as far lightsaber combat is conserned Obi-Wan Wasn't a Master he was the Master of his chosen form.

Aquatain · Post by **Aquatain** » 2005-07-28 06:14pm

one could also speculate that vader being a force user is a quick as he needs to be,like yoda who could increase his speed when needed.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2005-07-28 07:21pm

Lord Revan wrote:It isn't bad writing IMHO, infact I consider it realisic writing (the Jedi are too scared to think that the Force TK they're using on inert objects or droids would just as well against Grievous, but Kenobi who kept his cool Force TKs Grievous the first chance he gets (and causes Grievous to run away (again))) and as far lightsaber combat is conserned Obi-Wan Wasn't a Master he was the Master of his chosen form.

Doesn't Dooku tell Grevious to use fear and intimidation as his ally against the Jedi so they can't use the force to it's full effect against him? I think it's in a comic or one of the Clone Wars cartoons.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-07-28 10:06pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:
Lord Revan wrote:It isn't bad writing IMHO, infact I consider it realisic writing (the Jedi are too scared to think that the Force TK they're using on inert objects or droids would just as well against Grievous, but Kenobi who kept his cool Force TKs Grievous the first chance he gets (and causes Grievous to run away (again))) and as far lightsaber combat is conserned Obi-Wan Wasn't a Master he was the Master of his chosen form.
Doesn't Dooku tell Grevious to use fear and intimidation as his ally against the Jedi so they can't use the force to it's full effect against him? I think it's in a comic or one of the Clone Wars cartoons.

"Clone Wars" season 3.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2005-07-29 06:59am

Fear, intimidation and surprise. Should any one of these be lacking, Grievous is to flee with great haste.

The three elements put the Jedi in a state of mind that precludes his use of the Force; without the Force, a Jedi is no more combat effective than a normal being.. and the capabilities of the cybernetic Kaleesh warrior in question are clearly far beyond those of a normal being.

When he ran into Obi-Wan, he didn't have those three things. If anything, Obi-Wan pulled them on Grievous. Grievous did indeed try to flee to his starfighter, but the Mac Daddy just wouldn't let go.

Zwinmar · Post by **Zwinmar** » 2005-07-29 11:25am

Maybe it too much roleplaying in me, (over a decade of experience now), but I dont understand why a Jedi would forget years of training when they fight Grevious

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-07-29 11:38am

Zwinmar wrote:Maybe it too much roleplaying in me, (over a decade of experience now), but I dont understand why a Jedi would forget years of training when they fight Grevious

it's simple they don't, but they're too scared to think of using that training to their advantace.

Edit: think about it if you were faced with creature that's the size of basketball player (size of Grievous 190 cm (min)-216 cm (max)) and can take gun shots to chest and survive and add to this he using weapons that have once belonged to someone you knew and he had kill Him or Her to get it.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2005-07-29 01:29pm

Lord Revan wrote:Edit: think about it if you were faced with creature that's the size of basketball player (size of Grievous 190 cm (min)-216 cm (max)) and can take gun shots to chest and survive and add to this he using weapons that have once belonged to someone you knew and he had kill Him or Her to get it.

There's also the possibility that the Jedi had considerably degraded in average power by the time of the Clone Wars. Aside from a few badasses they didn't perform so well in the Geonosis Arena, and Palpatine was clouding their control of the force. A lot of the Jedi that Grievous beat might have just been weaklings. When he went up against higher-level opponents like Anakin and Obi-Wan he ran away like a bitch.

Molyneux · Post by **Molyneux** » 2005-07-29 03:38pm

Pablo Sanchez wrote:
Lord Revan wrote:Edit: think about it if you were faced with creature that's the size of basketball player (size of Grievous 190 cm (min)-216 cm (max)) and can take gun shots to chest and survive and add to this he using weapons that have once belonged to someone you knew and he had kill Him or Her to get it.
There's also the possibility that the Jedi had considerably degraded in average power by the time of the Clone Wars. Aside from a few badasses they didn't perform so well in the Geonosis Arena, and Palpatine was clouding their control of the force. A lot of the Jedi that Grievous beat might have just been weaklings. When he went up against higher-level opponents like Anakin and Obi-Wan he ran away like a bitch.

In Grievous' first on-screen appearance, he took on six Jedi at once. He stomped a human padawan, killed a padawan of the same species as Ki-Adi-Mundi, and then managed to take on (and defeat!) Ki-Adi-Mundi, Aayla Secura, Shaak Ti, and a Whiphid Jedi. Earlier, he'd slain another Jedi Master.

He may not have had Force powers, but he does have armor, speed, weight, size, psychological advantage, a brilliant (if deranged) mind, and a combat computer helping his brain.

Grievous' only way of dealing with Force attacks appears to be dodging; when he was unable to evade Mace's attack, he got crunched (at the end of the Clone Wars series). He was at reduced capacity in Ep. III, and when Obi-Wan refused to be intimidated, he found out the hard way that he could not take on a Jedi Master on even terms.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-07-29 03:50pm

It should noted that Aayla Secura or Shaak Ti were no push overs. Aayla Secura could take two large thugs with using only her hands and feet (she was undercover, so (exessive) use of Force was prohibited) and Shaak Ti was said to be rather talented Saber duelist by Obi-wan. Also I dout that Ki-Adi-Mundi was walk was total loser either.