[Mikal768]What if the Federation followed Mike's suggestion?

[NRS Guardian]

Yes, but stellar drift can be calculated and compensated for. Plus, the major hyper routes in the SW galaxy have been around for literally thousands of years, with little variation, and one, the Hydian Way IIRC, is about as long as the SW galaxy's diameter.

[Mikal768]

Yes, but it still took thousands of years for those routes to form into the shape we see them in today

[The Spartan]

This still takes time. Odds are for every single route found, a lot of probe droids are going to be destroyed. And that still doesn't change the fact that until the SW ships can create long term routes that they'll have to send out probe droids every time they travel, to account for the changes in position from stellar drift.

Every time they travel? Why? They can send out multiple droids all at once and set up hyperlanes throughout an entire region based upon their data. And they can still make sets of jumps without the data by using their fucking sensors.

Did I make any mention of hyperdrives? Let's see, nope. There's no denying that hyperdrive technology is fast, but it's much less forgiving mistake wise. And the fact they have an unexplored galaxy will mean it'll take awhile. Even the Empire doesn't have unlimited resources.

Don't dodge the issue you slimy little fuck. You said that one of the reasons SW travel was so fast was that they had pre-chartered hyper lanes. Ignoring the fact that hyperdrive is orders of magnitude faster than anything in the ST universe and that with FTL sensors they can map entire routes out on their own with probe droids providing basic starting data.

Simple, in a galaxy with no navigational data, (and using the navagational data of any species they MAY be lucky to encounter before using the probe droids in mass still won't be totally useful, since they don't account for any hyperspace type of travel needs, outside of astronimcal positions.) mishaps which might only hinder a ship in a well traveled space lane can cripple a ship in space that is largely unknown to them, far from the nessecary facilities to rescue and repair them.

Oh no. The possibility of maybe having a malfunction in the hyperdrive is going to keep me from jumping to hyperspace. I'm so scared of that it might malfunction and I'll be stuck here. Wait a minute, if I don't use my hyperdrive I'm still stuck anyways. Gee, I guess I better fire up my hyperdrive and follow the directions my probe droids told me to take.

Which is why it took thousands of years for it to be done in the SW universe, and even then there are many routes which get lost, forgotten, or change over time as stellar drift happens, right? Unless the galaxy is static, neverchanging, and largely motionless.

And it couldn't possibly have been because they had an immature technology at the time. Or that they lacked the resources and people to colonize the galaxy at the time. And the ones that are forgotten couldn't possibly be forgotten because they're less useful than others or that they lead nowhere.

Star charts which are in use for Warp capable vessels, not those which use hyperspace style travel.

What the fuck do you think is needed for hyperspace travel? Mass, location and drift. Things we can fucking measure today. Things that any FTL ship is going to need to account for so it doesn't run into a star or get dragged off course. Try again dumb shit.

[Mikal768]

Every time they travel? Why? They can send out multiple droids all at once and set up hyperlanes throughout an entire region based upon their data. And they can still make sets of jumps without the data by using their fucking sensors.

There is no evidence of using FTL sensors or ANY sensors being usable during hyperspace jumps. And multiple droids can set up initial routes, but those routes can change suddenly. The SW guys have no way of knowing if a route is STABLE until multiple jumps are sent through a period of time.

Don't dodge the issue you slimy little fuck. You said that one of the reasons SW travel was so fast was that they had pre-chartered hyper lanes. Ignoring the fact that hyperdrive is orders of magnitude faster than anything in the ST universe and that with FTL sensors they can map entire routes out on their own with probe droids providing basic starting data.

If they could use these FTL sensors to map out all the routes, then why did it take thousands of years of travel for them to do so, and, even then, there are STILL dangerous routes that, by your stance, would be EASY for them to navigate through, such as the Deep Core and the Unknown Regions. IF their FTL sensors worked in such a way, then even THOSE parts of space wouldn't be troublesome to navigate through. To take it FURTHER, they wouldn't need pre-planned routes that are updated CONSTANTLY (some EU sources say almost every day for the well traveled routes), since their FTL sensors could handle it FOR them.

Oh no. The possibility of maybe having a malfunction in the hyperdrive is going to keep me from jumping to hyperspace. I'm so scared of that it might malfunction and I'll be stuck here. Wait a minute, if I don't use my hyperdrive I'm still stuck anyways. Gee, I guess I better fire up my hyperdrive and follow the directions my probe droids told me to take.

Yeah, just follow it blindly, and have almost anything happen, since you trusted one droid one time for a route to be static, in an unexplored galaxy.

And it couldn't possibly have been because they had an immature technology at the time. Or that they lacked the resources and people to colonize the galaxy at the time. And the ones that are forgotten couldn't possibly be forgotten because they're less useful than others or that they lead nowhere.

The Republic had been in place for a lot of those years, and most sources show that the technology level up to at LEAST 5-10 thousand years before was comparable to that in the modern technology, said technology having stagnated rather then continuing to evolve for whatever reason. The resources were there. Look at the history of the SW galaxy beyond the movies. People have been exploring up to the Unknown Regions for millenia, but it still TOOK millenia for stable routes to be formed that could facilitate normal travel through those regions (travel which STILL isn't easily possible in the Unknown Regions)

What the fuck do you think is needed for hyperspace travel? Mass, location and drift. Things we can fucking measure today. Things that any FTL ship is going to need to account for so it doesn't run into a star or get dragged off course. Try again dumb shit.

If it was that easy then why did it take the galactic inhabitents millenia to achieve it, when it's been shown they had the technology to do so for said millenia, and the will to do so (republic explorers as far back as Five years ago). By your reasoning each of those worlds should have been mapped and colonized, yes?

[Plushie]

There is no evidence of using FTL sensors or ANY sensors being usable during hyperspace jumps. And multiple droids can set up initial routes, but those routes can change suddenly. The SW guys have no way of knowing if a route is STABLE until multiple jumps are sent through a period of time.

How fucking fast do you think stellar objects change position in relation to the huge amount of space they occupy? Seriously, Wong got it right a page back: send a probe droid along the course you plan on taking to scout out any problems and then follow it when it reports back an "all safe". Do you honestly think things will change that fucking much in the half an hour it takes for the probe droid to travel the route and communicate back its results?

If they could use these FTL sensors to map out all the routes, then why did it take thousands of years of travel for them to do so, and, even then, there are STILL dangerous routes that, by your stance, would be EASY for them to navigate through, such as the Deep Core and the Unknown Regions. IF their FTL sensors worked in such a way, then even THOSE parts of space wouldn't be troublesome to navigate through. To take it FURTHER, they wouldn't need pre-planned routes that are updated CONSTANTLY (some EU sources say almost every day for the well traveled routes), since their FTL sensors could handle it FOR them.

Two things:

1. You're taking your one explanation of things as fact, yet there are several, equally likely explanations that you aren't even considering.

2. Where do you get this knowledge a priori that hyperspace travel is more sensative than warp drive? What tells you that the impetus for exploration was lacking up until 'round 5000 years ago? For all we know, the 20,000 years between the founding of the Republic and the events of the Knights of the Old Republic graphic novels might have been spent filling out the area of space the Republic already occupied.

Yeah, just follow it blindly, and have almost anything happen, since you trusted one droid one time for a route to be static, in an unexplored galaxy.

No, you precede each and every planned jump with a probe droid for the first couple months until you establish stable routes and monitering stations to communicate changes required by stellar drift. It isn't like the things are hard to come by, Vader launched thousands upon thousands to find Hoth.

The Republic had been in place for a lot of those years, and most sources show that the technology level up to at LEAST 5-10 thousand years before was comparable to that in the modern technology, said technology having stagnated rather then continuing to evolve for whatever reason. The resources were there. Look at the history of the SW galaxy beyond the movies. People have been exploring up to the Unknown Regions for millenia, but it still TOOK millenia for stable routes to be formed that could facilitate normal travel through those regions (travel which STILL isn't easily possible in the Unknown Regions)

Now this is utter bullshit. Most sources show that technology was of the same type, not the same level. It'd be like saying we haven't made any advances since muskets since a P90 is still only "just" a gun.

You're assuming people would explore just for the heck of it when, in reality, all evidence we have points to the Old Republic having a very capitalistic system. Exploration that wouldn't lead to at least highly propable profit would be for non-profit research organizations that struggle by on the tiny government grants they manage to scrape together.

Think about the modern world. Right now, we have the ability to go to the Moon and actually stay there for a significant period of time. We have the ability to build multiple ISS type constructs in orbit.

We don't, because it is a high investment with no definite positive return.

If it was that easy then why did it take the galactic inhabitents millenia to achieve it, when it's been shown they had the technology to do so for said millenia, and the will to do so (republic explorers as far back as Five years ago). By your reasoning each of those worlds should have been mapped and colonized, yes?

Actually, the only examples of explorers from five thousand years ago that we have would scout hyperspace routes out within established Republic space. They were looking for routes to sell to shipping companies and the like.

By the way, thank you for reminded me of that particular comic: in it, we see our two heroes, as they are escaping the Empress Teta system, decide to randomly dial in some coordinates and prepare for a jump.

Tell me, if hyperspace travel were even half as hazardous as you make it out to be, what idiot in their right mind would ever dial out randomly?

[Noble Ire]

Tell me, if hyperspace travel were even half as hazardous as you make it out to be, what idiot in their right mind would ever dial out randomly?

Actually, random hyperspace jumps are incredibly dangerous, they're just more preferable than being atomized by persuing starships.

[Mikal768]

How fucking fast do you think stellar objects change position in relation to the huge amount of space they occupy? Seriously, Wong got it right a page back: send a probe droid along the course you plan on taking to scout out any problems and then follow it when it reports back an "all safe". Do you honestly think things will change that fucking much in the half an hour it takes for the probe droid to travel the route and communicate back its results?

Fast enough for the need for routes (even main routes) to be recalulated daily or else you need to redo the calculations yourself. As I said myself, the probe droids work for the short term, giving you a day or so for jumps, but long term wise just flooding the galaxy with droids over and over and over and OVER again is just wasteful.

Two things:

1. You're taking your one explanation of things as fact, yet there are several, equally likely explanations that you aren't even considering.

2. Where do you get this knowledge a priori that hyperspace travel is more sensative than warp drive? What tells you that the impetus for exploration was lacking up until 'round 5000 years ago? For all we know, the 20,000 years between the founding of the Republic and the events of the Knights of the Old Republic graphic novels might have been spent filling out the area of space the Republic already occupied.

Tales of the Jedi era. The republic formed 25,000 years or so before the movies due to the perfecting of the Hyperdrive, allowing for the formation of the Galactic Republic. However, even with this marvel and the fact that 'explorers mapped the physical reality of the galaxy', over 20,000 years LATER, during the time of Marka Ragnos, the worlds of the Sith Empire hadn't been discovered by the Republic, since Starbreaker 12 was the first Republic explorer vessel that entered their territory, since the first Jedi split off from the Order, nearly 20,000 years before.
So, if the Republic is able to easily penetrate the galaxy with a technology they 'perfected', then how come it takes them 20,000 years to finally explore worlds that, 5,000 years later, are still on the fringe of known and well traveled space?

No, you precede each and every planned jump with a probe droid for the first couple months until you establish stable routes and monitering stations to communicate changes required by stellar drift. It isn't like the things are hard to come by, Vader launched thousands upon thousands to find Hoth.

IF it takes months. And IF said droids actually FIND these routes. Remember, it took 20,000 years for them to even reach the edge of their own galaxy.

Now this is utter bullshit. Most sources show that technology was of the same type, not the same level. It'd be like saying we haven't made any advances since muskets since a P90 is still only "just" a gun.

You're assuming people would explore just for the heck of it when, in reality, all evidence we have points to the Old Republic having a very capitalistic system. Exploration that wouldn't lead to at least highly propable profit would be for non-profit research organizations that struggle by on the tiny government grants they manage to scrape together.

Except that the Old Republic was also a highly expansionistic power for a good part of its life, what with an entire SECTION of the galaxy being labeled as simply 'The Colonies'. The Republic funded many attempts at hyperspace route exploration, and it WAS considered to be lucrative enough for independant pilots to at least ATTEMPT to map hyperspace routes, at least as far back as 5,000 years before hand.

Tell me, if hyperspace travel were even half as hazardous as you make it out to be, what idiot in their right mind would ever dial out randomly?

That's the thing, in the SW universe no one 'dials out randomly'. They use the established routes (note, after 25,000 years or so almost any viable long term route could be 'established' by then, even if severly out of date and thus requiring lots of calulcation time to bring up to snuff). In fact, from what I can see, blind jumps only happen in SW to escape certain death situations, not because they have any choice.

[Plushie]

Fast enough for the need for routes (even main routes) to be recalulated daily or else you need to redo the calculations yourself. As I said myself, the probe droids work for the short term, giving you a day or so for jumps, but long term wise just flooding the galaxy with droids over and over and over and OVER again is just wasteful.

Er, your knowledge of stellar drift astounds me. Here I thought it took thousands of years for star positions to change appreciably. I swear that my math told me that a route would be at least moderately stable for months, seeing as the drift required in the stars of the galactic disk to throw off initial hyper routes would take that long to accur. But I guess I was wrong. I mean, your provision of numbers and calculations showing that stars throw themselves into a jumble daily (even though constellations are relativily stable for centuries in a planetary environment) is convincing.

Tales of the Jedi era. The republic formed 25,000 years or so before the movies due to the perfecting of the Hyperdrive, allowing for the formation of the Galactic Republic. However, even with this marvel and the fact that 'explorers mapped the physical reality of the galaxy', over 20,000 years LATER, during the time of Marka Ragnos, the worlds of the Sith Empire hadn't been discovered by the Republic, since Starbreaker 12 was the first Republic explorer vessel that entered their territory, since the first Jedi split off from the Order, nearly 20,000 years before.
So, if the Republic is able to easily penetrate the galaxy with a technology they 'perfected', then how come it takes them 20,000 years to finally explore worlds that, 5,000 years later, are still on the fringe of known and well traveled space?

Sources for the use of "perfecting" meaning hyperdrives haven't gotten any better in 25,000 years?

IF it takes months. And IF said droids actually FIND these routes. Remember, it took 20,000 years for them to even reach the edge of their own galaxy.

Not for want of trying, I guess, right? I mean, you have yet to establish any kind of source for your claims, yet I'm backing up what I'm saying whenever I need to (and yes, Tales of the Jedi, bleh, blame it on the hour). The two navigators that I mentioned were exploring new routes in already established Republican space, ie not outside the borders of the Republic. They were looking for shorter routes between key star systems to sell to traders.

Where are you claims that the Republic encouraged pushing the borders?

Except that the Old Republic was also a highly expansionistic power for a good part of its life, what with an entire SECTION of the galaxy being labeled as simply 'The Colonies'. The Republic funded many attempts at hyperspace route exploration, and it WAS considered to be lucrative enough for independant pilots to at least ATTEMPT to map hyperspace routes, at least as far back as 5,000 years before hand.

How does having colonies (especially because the colonies are labeled as worlds that were colonized in an initial spurt of expansion, not a continuous growth) mean the Republic was expansionist for every one of the 20,000 years between the founding and the Great Sith War?

Also, like I pointed out, they were looking for a shorter, faster route between two systems that were big for trade. They had actually already mapped the course, they just had to test it to make sure it was safe. This fits quite well with using FTL sensors to map out the initial route and sending a probe droid along to make sure there aren't any stars about to go nova along the way.

That's the thing, in the SW universe no one 'dials out randomly'. They use the established routes (note, after 25,000 years or so almost any viable long term route could be 'established' by then, even if severly out of date and thus requiring lots of calulcation time to bring up to snuff). In fact, from what I can see, blind jumps only happen in SW to escape certain death situations, not because they have any choice.

I do not have the comic available to me right now (I will soon enough, however), but I'm pretty sure they effectivily spun the dial as far as chosing a course goes. It's how they ended up in the Sith Empire instead of anywhere in Republic space.

Tell me, if the Republic didn't even know the Sith existed, how the fucking hell could there be an established route between the Empire and the Empress Teta system?

[Mikal768]

Fast enough for the need for routes (even main routes) to be recalulated daily or else you need to redo the calculations yourself. As I said myself, the probe droids work for the short term, giving you a day or so for jumps, but long term wise just flooding the galaxy with droids over and over and over and OVER again is just wasteful.

Er, your knowledge of stellar drift astounds me. Here I thought it took thousands of years for star positions to change appreciably. I swear that my math told me that a route would be at least moderately stable for months, seeing as the drift required in the stars of the galactic disk to throw off initial hyper routes would take that long to accur. But I guess I was wrong. I mean, your provision of numbers and calculations showing that stars throw themselves into a jumble daily (even though constellations are relativily stable for centuries in a planetary environment) is convincing.

YOUR math does, but we're not discussing just stellar drift here. There are probably other factors involved beyond that which require the constant updating of information, otherwise it becomes more and more useless as time went on. This isn't my opinion here, but rather stuff from EU sources.

Sources for the use of "perfecting" meaning hyperdrives haven't gotten any better in 25,000 years?

The only way hyperdrives have noticaably improved over the last 25,000 years seems to be in speed, with the modifier going from around *5 for fast ships to around .6 or so contemporarily. Navicomp technology hasn't noticeably improved, unless you can show me evidence to the contrary.

Where are you claims that the Republic encouraged pushing the borders?

The fact that they colonised so aggressivly an entire sector of the galaxy is known simply AS the Colonies?

Also, like I pointed out, they were looking for a shorter, faster route between two systems that were big for trade. They had actually already mapped the course, they just had to test it to make sure it was safe. This fits quite well with using FTL sensors to map out the initial route and sending a probe droid along to make sure there aren't any stars about to go nova along the way.

Except that there is no actual evidence that FTL sensors can do such a thing. Blind Jumps are almost always considered crap shoots at BEST, even micro jumps are considered extremly dangerous without proper computations via the navicomputer. If FTL sensors could mitigate that or stop it, why would they NEED to use explorer ships to create routes? Or for that matter need probe droids for exploration period, when ships can safely navigate hyperspace WITHOUT an exact and constantly updated route?

I do not have the comic available to me right now (I will soon enough, however), but I'm pretty sure they effectivily spun the dial as far as chosing a course goes. It's how they ended up in the Sith Empire instead of anywhere in Republic space.

Which shows that by 'spinning the dial', even for a small variation of a route between two established and strong trading partners, you can go WILDLY off course into uncharted space, if you're LUCKY. Most blind jumps usually cause the death of their crew.

Tell me, if the Republic didn't even know the Sith existed, how the fucking hell could there be an established route between the Empire and the Empress Teta system?

There WASN'T a route between the Sith Empire and Empress Teta. During the time of Marka Ragnos there was NO contact between either power. The Sith barely remembered their time in the Republic, with only ancient lore telling them their origins, while the Republic had NO information about the Sith, PERIOD.

I think you're slightly confused. The two explorers wern't mapping between Empress Teta and the Sith Empire, because no one knew about the Sith Empire. The two explorers made contact because they saw the wealth of those worlds when they orbited Korriban, and felt that profitable contact could be made. Until that time, there had been NO contact between these two powers before the hyperspace explorer appeared.

[Darth Wong]

Technically that'll work for one jump or so. After that you need constant updating of the route for your navicomps, or stellar drift causes that 'safe' route to go kerflooie

Are you dense or something? Since you send a probe droid before you every time you jump, you are getting constant updating of your route.

[Mikal768]

Technically that'll work for one jump or so. After that you need constant updating of the route for your navicomps, or stellar drift causes that 'safe' route to go kerflooie

Are you dense or something? Since you send a probe droid before you every time you jump, you are getting constant updating of your route.

Until you run out of probes. Plus it'll take a lot of time to implement, especially as your forces spread out from your starting position. I never said it wasn't possible. I'm saying that the quick and utter takeover of the galaxy will be mitigated by the fact that said forces CAN'T move quickly in a galatic theater strategically DUE to the simple fact its unexplored and has no routes for travel by the ships.

[Civil War Man]

Until you run out of probes. Plus it'll take a lot of time to implement, especially as your forces spread out from your starting position. I never said it wasn't possible. I'm saying that the quick and utter takeover of the galaxy will be mitigated by the fact that said forces CAN'T move quickly in a galatic theater strategically DUE to the simple fact its unexplored and has no routes for travel by the ships.

Except the whole thing that the Empire has massive galactic-level production, enabling them to produce an effectively arbitrary amount of probe droids for the purpose of mapping the Milky Way.

It'll also be especially interesting once those probe droids start picking up on Borg transwarp conduits. Since, you know, building such conduits would require mapping the routes the ships took.

Oh, plus the whole thing with the Empire being extremely experienced at galactic-level strategy.

[Mikal768]

Except the whole thing that the Empire has massive galactic-level production, enabling them to produce an effectively arbitrary amount of probe droids for the purpose of mapping the Milky Way.

Which still takes time. As well as the fact that the probe droids have to actually be SENT to the fleet, and deployed, AND sent out to wherever the foward ships are. All of this takes time.

It'll also be especially interesting once those probe droids start picking up on Borg transwarp conduits. Since, you know, building such conduits would require mapping the routes the ships took.

IF transwarp works that way. IF the Empire can even detect warp and transwarp travel. Remember, being technologically advanced doesn't equal the ability to magically be able to percieve these things, especially since they have no documented experience with such travel.

Oh, plus the whole thing with the Empire being extremely experienced at galactic-level strategy.

In a galaxy explored and largely mapped, not one never seen before.

[SirNitram]

And where in the Thrawn Trilogy does it show that?

When Mara Jade is aboard a Victory-class, heading to Tantiss.

It's not exactly a hard concept, Mikal, if you stopped being dumb for a minute. THe ISD has realtime sensors to 100LY out. At a speed of 50LY/Hr, it can see it's path clearly enough to simply move out of the way of dangers.

[Civil War Man]

Which still takes time. As well as the fact that the probe droids have to actually be SENT to the fleet, and deployed, AND sent out to wherever the foward ships are. All of this takes time.

Considering the speed of hyperdrive, the transport of probe droids out to the fleet will take an effectively minimal amount of time. As for deployment, it basically amounts to telling the droid "Scan this area" and shooting it out the hanger bay.

It'll also be especially interesting once those probe droids start picking up on Borg transwarp conduits. Since, you know, building such conduits would require mapping the routes the ships took.

IF transwarp works that way.

...So the Borg don't have to map out their conduits?

For someone who knows Star Trek better, have there been episodes where the Enterprise picked up on a Borg transwarp conduit?

IF the Empire can even detect warp and transwarp travel. Remember, being technologically advanced doesn't equal the ability to magically be able to percieve these things, especially since they have no documented experience with such travel.

Okay. Let's assume that their sensors magically cannot detect the methods Star Trek ships use to travel...

"Hey, look, Admiral. Here comes an alien ship. Let's capture it and see how they do things."

Oh, plus the whole thing with the Empire being extremely experienced at galactic-level strategy.

In a galaxy explored and largely mapped, not one never seen before.

Hernando Cortez fared pretty well for himself, and he lacked the benefit of detailed maps and previous exploration of Mexico.

[NRS Guardian]

First of all the reason the Deep Core isn't totally explored is because the stars are so close together that routes aren't as stable and there is less room for error, and the Deep Core has few resources or habitable planets so there wasn't much impetus to explore it until the Emperor needed secret hide-aways. Yet, the Empire in about 30 years had explored much of the Deep Core, which means the Empire has quite a bit of experience mapping out safe routes in some of the most hazardous conditions in the SW galaxy. The reason the Unknown Regions are still relatively unexplored is because of the various powers such as the Chiss which have already staked claims on the most valuable worlds, and don't appreciate trespassers. Also, the Chiss don't seem to have much trouble traveling through the UR.
Also, the reason the Colonies are so named is because they mark the area just outside the Core where the first colonies were established. Plus, by the Great Hyperspace War the Republic had explored and ruled at least the quarter of the galaxy known colloquially as "the Slice" which extended from the Perlemian Trade Route to the Corellian Run. The reason the exploration of the galaxy was so slow the first 20,000 years was first hyperdrive was in its infancy, second it took a while to colonize and develope worlds, and third the Republic was essentially exploring and mapping new hyperspace routes only as the need arose, or as a source of new profit was required.
Also, according to Han Solo in The Jedi Search when he's escaping from Kessel on a Lambda-class Shuttle he comments that the Shuttle's navicomputer is obsolete and will take a long time to calculate safe coordinates through the Maw, and among the many mods on the Millenium Falcon is a very enhanced navicomputer. So there have been advances in navicomputers.

[Darth Wong]

Technically that'll work for one jump or so. After that you need constant updating of the route for your navicomps, or stellar drift causes that 'safe' route to go kerflooie

Are you dense or something? Since you send a probe droid before you every time you jump, you are getting constant updating of your route.

Until you run out of probes.

You do realize that the Feds only have 150 planets, right? And of those, probably less than a dozen strategically critical ones? And Vader's Death Squadron alone launched thousands of probe droids? Don't be an idiot. The Feds would be stomped flat before they even ran through 1% of their probe droid inventory. And then they could take their time mapping out their new territory.

The Feds cannot hope to even slow down the Imperial advance. All they can do is hope to survive as a resistance force in hiding, which is the only option that Starfleet would realistically be exploring. A diplomatic option is superior but that would be in the purview of (obviously) the diplomats.

[Mikal768]

And where in the Thrawn Trilogy does it show that?

When Mara Jade is aboard a Victory-class, heading to Tantiss.

The only time in the Thrawn trilogy that Jade went to Mount Tantiss on Wayland was in the Millenium Falcon during the last book. She didn't even KNOW where Wayland was until that book.

You do realize that the Feds only have 150 planets, right? And of those, probably less than a dozen strategically critical ones? And Vader's Death Squadron alone launched thousands of probe droids? Don't be an idiot. The Feds would be stomped flat before they even ran through 1% of their probe droid inventory. And then they could take their time mapping out their new territory.

Except that, according to whats already been shown on this very website, said planets are extremely spaced out, as the Federation seems to lay claim to large tracts of space willy nilly, with few planets in between them, thus making the search for said planets even harder then if they were tightly packed together in the galactic 'neighborhood'. And out of those thousands of probe droids, how many do you a) will actually find a STABLE hyperspace route and b) find a stable hyperspace route that actually takes them to the target they want, or even on the PATH to the target they want?
Yes, they have thousands of probe droids. And with the millions of possible routes through hyperspace, they'll need them.

Yet, the Empire in about 30 years had explored much of the Deep Core, which means the Empire has quite a bit of experience mapping out safe routes in some of the most hazardous conditions in the SW galaxy. The reason the Unknown Regions are still relatively unexplored is because of the various powers such as the Chiss which have already staked claims on the most valuable worlds, and don't appreciate trespassers. Also, the Chiss don't seem to have much trouble traveling through the UR.

Actually the Deep Core has a lot of planets with rich resources, and the routes HAD been there, but lost, technically. And the Chiss? Give me a break, if you look at a few other threads on the SW only board, you'll see that they wouldn't stand a chance against the galactic militaries arrayed against it. The Chiss couldn't do SHIT if the Republic or the Empire had pressed against them. Plus, IIRC, the Chiss only have the knowledge of their local group, if THAT. Outside of that, they don't have the ability for travel within the UR.

[Darth Wong]

You do realize that the Feds only have 150 planets, right? And of those, probably less than a dozen strategically critical ones? And Vader's Death Squadron alone launched thousands of probe droids? Don't be an idiot. The Feds would be stomped flat before they even ran through 1% of their probe droid inventory. And then they could take their time mapping out their new territory.

Except that, according to whats already been shown on this very website, said planets are extremely spaced out, as the Federation seems to lay claim to large tracts of space willy nilly, with few planets in between them, thus making the search for said planets even harder then if they were tightly packed together in the galactic 'neighborhood'.

Thanks for proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that you're a raving imbecile. All they have to do is triangulate on the subspace transmissions, you idiot. Not to mention simply extorting or buying the information off the first starship they find, since the location of Federation planets is hardly a secret.

And out of those thousands of probe droids, how many do you a) will actually find a STABLE hyperspace route and b) find a stable hyperspace route that actually takes them to the target they want, or even on the PATH to the target they want?

What the fuck are you talking about, dumbfuck? What's this "stable hyperspace route" shit? All they have to do is figure out which direction Earth is in, send a probe droid that way, and if the way is clear, send the fleet.

Yes, they have thousands of probe droids. And with the millions of possible routes through hyperspace, they'll need them.

So now they have to explore MILLIONS of possible routes between their entry point and a few dozen planets? Do tell. Thanks for providing even more evidence that you're a gibbering fool.

[Mikal768]

Thanks for proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that you're a raving imbecile. All they have to do is triangulate on the subspace transmissions, you idiot. Not to mention simply extorting or buying the information off the first starship they find, since the location of Federation planets is hardly a secret.

Yes, because once they triangulate said positions, it's a simple straight shot to the planet right? No need to calculate jumps to account for any starlanes, asteroid fields, or mass shadows! Plus, space is big. Really big. You think they'll just happen to encounter a ship, especially one that travels FTL in a way they have never experience and never use? Yeah, I'm the raving imbecile. I thought you were supposed to be smart Wong. Get your personal prejudices against Feddie stuff and for Imperial stuff out of your head and look at this a little LOGICALLY, with what we know the Imps can do, and you'll see it won't be that easy. Inevitable, yes. Instantanous? No.

What the fuck are you talking about, dumbfuck? What's this "stable hyperspace route" shit? All they have to do is figure out which direction Earth is in, send a probe droid that way, and if the way is clear, send the fleet.

A stable hyperspace route is one that forms and can actually be used more then once. If it was THAT easy to create a hyperspace route, then why does it take them over 25 millenia to map out their galaxy. In SW, most hyperspace travel takes several jumps, for the ship to reorient and move from there. It's not a straight shot, as the EU shows, and the movies haven't contradicted.

So now they have to explore MILLIONS of possible routes between their entry point and a few dozen planets? Do tell. Thanks for providing even more evidence that you're a gibbering fool.

POSSIBLY millions. They MAY get lucky and find the single easy backdoor route into Earth, but hell, the Enterprise may be able to single handedly take out each Imperial starship with technobabble too, if you wanna risk odds that fucking high.

[omegaLancer]

The only time in the Thrawn trilogy that Jade went to Mount Tantiss on Wayland was in the Millenium Falcon during the last book. She didn't even KNOW where Wayland was until that book.

Actually it on page 212 of "dark force rising

[SirNitram]

And where in the Thrawn Trilogy does it show that?

When Mara Jade is aboard a Victory-class, heading to Tantiss.

The only time in the Thrawn trilogy that Jade went to Mount Tantiss on Wayland was in the Millenium Falcon during the last book. She didn't even KNOW where Wayland was until that book.

I misremembered the incident. Here's the exact quote from Dark Force Rising, as a Victory-class ticks along uncharted space:

But from the labored sound of the engines, she could guess they were pushing
uncomfortably far past a Victory Star Destroyer's normal flank speed of
Point Four Five. Possibly even as high as Point Five, which would mean they
were covering a hundred twenty-seven light-years per hour.

Which means that they cover a little over their realtime sensor radius in an hour; not impossible to do safely. Of course, you cut out the bit where I explained why this should be obvious. Ah, trekkies.

[Darth Wong]

Thanks for proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that you're a raving imbecile. All they have to do is triangulate on the subspace transmissions, you idiot. Not to mention simply extorting or buying the information off the first starship they find, since the location of Federation planets is hardly a secret.

Yes, because once they triangulate said positions, it's a simple straight shot to the planet right? No need to calculate jumps to account for any starlanes, asteroid fields, or mass shadows!

Yes, because they just sent a probe droid to see if there was any of this shit in their way, you idiot. What part of this do you not understand? You don't need to "calculate" jack shit when you simply apply the brute-force method of sending a disposable probe ahead of you.

<snip a lot of accusations of prejudice and dishonesty>

Either provide objective evidence of those claims right now or shut the fuck up, asshole. Your next post in this thread will either be objective evidence to support these accusations, a retraction of those accusations, or your last post on this board. You decide.

A stable hyperspace route is one that forms and can actually be used more then once. If it was THAT easy to create a hyperspace route, then why does it take them over 25 millenia to map out their galaxy. In SW, most hyperspace travel takes several jumps, for the ship to reorient and move from there. It's not a straight shot, as the EU shows, and the movies haven't contradicted.

Provide evidence that it is impossible to make a hyperjump in a straight line, you lying little shit.

[Mikal768]

I misremembered the incident. Here's the exact quote from Dark Force Rising, as a Victory-class ticks along uncharted space:

But from the labored sound of the engines, she could guess they were pushing
uncomfortably far past a Victory Star Destroyer's normal flank speed of
Point Four Five. Possibly even as high as Point Five, which would mean they
were covering a hundred twenty-seven light-years per hour.

Which means that they cover a little over their realtime sensor radius in an hour; not impossible to do safely. Of course, you cut out the bit where I explained why this should be obvious. Ah, trekkies.

Except that IIRC the Vic knew where Mount Tantiss and Wayland was by this time in the trilogy, thus it wasn't unknown, since Thrawn found the damn planet a book ago. And all this proves is that the ship can travel at that speed. There is still no evidence whatsoever that they use these FTL sensors when they travel in hyperspace, only that they're used at the most to 'perhaps' detect in bound ships, and even that has no evidence backing it up.
And as for calling me a trekkie, why do you assume I'm for Trek or against Wars in this debate? All I'm doing is taking the evidence shown in the movies, books, and games, and being logical about it, rather then succumbing to the near no-limits fallacy that you all seem to ascribe to the SW side. Their ships are fast, I never denied it, but they're limited by the mode of travel.

Yes, because they just sent a probe droid to see if there was any of this shit in their way, you idiot. What part of this do you not understand? You don't need to "calculate" jack shit when you simply apply the brute-force method of sending a disposable probe ahead of you.

Except for the fact that a lot of those probes will probably fail in getting the route mapped out. Yes, the probes will eventually find a safe route, but it'll take time. Why don't YOU understand that I never said it wouldn't work, I said it would take TIME. THAT'S the point I'm trying to refute: that the SW ships can quickly and easily establish beacheads around the galaxy willy nilly. From everything we've seen about hyperspace travel, they CAN'T, at least not until they establish hyperspace routes: which will take TIME.

Either provide objective evidence of those claims right now or shut the fuck up, asshole. Your next post in this thread will either be objective evidence to support these accusations, a retraction of those accusations, or your last post on this board. You decide.

piss off. I've shown my evidence, specifically the rates of expansion in the SW galaxy itself, as well as the nature of hyperspace jumps. Why don't YOU show some evidence that hyperspace doesn't need constant tinkering over a period of time to keep a safe route, if you're so damn secure in your knowledge? At least I've shown sources that back my claim. You just sit there and fart thunder and piss lightning down from the mountaintop.

Provide evidence that it is impossible to make a hyperjump in a straight line, you lying little shit.

Check out the EU, specifically during the NJO time period. It's rife with examples of ships having to revert to realspace to retake their bearings, and go from one jump to another. Hell, the Vong/Peace Brigade started ambushing Republic and trading ships at well known reversion spots specifically for that purpose. By YOUR reasoning those ships wouldn't NEED to make those reversions, since they could just 'travel on a straight line' to their destination.

[Crown]

Check out the EU, specifically during the NJO time period. It's rife with examples of ships having to revert to realspace to retake their bearings, and go from one jump to another. Hell, the Vong/Peace Brigade started ambushing Republic and trading ships at well known reversion spots specifically for that purpose. By YOUR reasoning those ships wouldn't NEED to make those reversions, since they could just 'travel on a straight line' to their destination.

The onus is on you to back up your claims. If you are so sure that these events happened, pick up the relevant book, find the passage and quote it like SirNitram did with the DFR passage.