What if the Borg had invaded Dominion space?

[ArmorPierce]

Ouch

[Spartan]

Alyeska wrote:

Do you have any canon evidence of this? No? Well your speculation is meaningless without any canon evidence that the Borg actually were destroying the older ships first. Doesn't mater how logical your speculation might be, its worthless if its not fact.

So are you saying that a Sovereign does not have superior shielding (i.e. lasting power in comparison to a Defiant class vessel? We are both speculating by the way.

I started it? Who went about calling who a rabid fan first?

On this board being called "a rabid fan" is practically a term of endearment.

Hmm... The fact that 7 of 9 INTENTIONALLY used her nano probes in an attempt to take over Voyager kinda shows proof. That and the fact that Seven stated that Nano probes automatically do things to things when seperated from the Drone indicates how they can and do assimilate both technology and biology.

Thats not what happen in the episode 'One', which you by the way brought up as evidence. I see so Seven who has never encountered a changling, just knows that a completely alien and inorganic species half a galaxy away will be suceptible to Borg nanoprobe. We don't even no that the nanites used to assimilate life forms are the same ones used to assimilate technology. The ability to assimilate technology, does not translate into the ability to assimilate inorganic life forms (The Founders are not technology and they are not biological in the sense that the Borg have encountered). Everything has limits you know. By the way just hoe would one assimilated a computer without first decrypting the computer files first? Or do the borg just assimilate raw material?

Really, then if they could decrypt his files why was the Queen asking him to reveal the code rather then use it herself? Ever think of that eh?

Nice try! What I meant to type was that they could not decrypt his computer files. Anyone reading this thread can plainly see that you held the veiw the Borg could assimilate Data because of his positronic brain. At least try to remember what you position is.

Three hours comes from the movie. That and there is the fact that we KNOW that Earth is not that close to the Romulan border. It has been stated time and time again that it takes DAYS to travel from Earth to else where. TNG All Good Things has the Enterprise taking more then a day to reach from Earth to the Romulan border.

In all good things they don't say what part of the neutral zone there in do they? I concede that is can take days to travel from the neutral zone to Earth, but how many neither of us can prove how long it took. From the way its potrayed in the film it did not take several days travel time. We also don't know how many ships were in the initial engagement, or how far it took place from Earth. Emissary tells us that the Borg had six uninterrupted days of travel from Picard abduction till Wolf 359. The initial engagement could have been a token force, that was smashed. With the Cube traveling uninterrupted up until just prior to the arrival of the E-E. A running battle, which lasted several days, evolving hundreds of ships, is hardly the only possibility.

FYI, in Voyager End Game they managed to get 20+ ships to meet a Borg Sphere in under 5 minutes time. BOBW is not a good distinction for how fast the Federation can muster ships. Also FYI. That is 6 days for the Cube to reach Earth. How many days for the Cube to reach Wolf 359? It took THAT many days for them to assemble 40 ships.

Sorry, I meant 6 day from Picard's abduction until the battle of Wolf 359. So it took six days to assemble 40 ships (including a Connie), and the Klingons who were sending ships still don't show up in time. Thanks for the gracious correction.

Sense the Feds according to canon can detect and even open existing transwarp conduits that's hardly a surprise. Given enough time I'm sure they could pull ships out of Utopia Planetia. 20+ ships is nowhere near 100 ships now is it. Thanks for supporting my position.

Funny, everyone else seems to think I'm just fine. I guess your just an idiot for making such ignorant statements.

Tolerating you and laughing at your expense is hardly an indication that every likes you. As I see it, your everyone’s favorite trekkie chew toy.

I guess you missed the little bit where the Nebula is made up of the same parts of the Galaxy. It uses the same warp core but in a smaller profile thus providing greater shield projection. The GCS is stated as being just barely outgunned by the Warbird. The Nebula has twice the forward torpedo capacity as the GCS. This leaves the Nebula to SIGNIFICANTLY outgun the Warbird in fights because it can bring most of its weapons to bear in the forward arc. And the K'Tinga? Are you a complete fucking idiot? That is the ship featured in Star Trek THE MOTION PICTURE. Your going to claim that a 80 year old ship is better then a Nebula class ship? The Nebula is one of the Federations most powerful ships and as such can kick the crap out of most other Alpha and Beta quadrant ships. It is reasonably matched by a Warbird, outguns a GCS and Vorcha, is slightly outgunned by a Sovereign or Negh'Var, and outguns a Dominion heavy cruiser.

Okay you got me I'm less trekkie than you. I confused the names. I was thinking of the Vorcha class attack cruiser. Please provided evidence that a standard Nebula has a greater torpedo load out than a GCS. By the way your trekkieness an Akira class outguns your beloved Nebula and TNG era GCS. Just because some parts of the GCS spaceframe ended up incorporated in the Nebula class does not prove that they have equivalent combat power. A Nebula is not as powerful as a GCS, the GCS was consistently described for over seven years as the most powerful Federation ship type.

So, what weapon calcs do you have for the borg? The only ones that exist are based on either FC which we don’t know how much initial damage it took or Scorpion in which Cubes survive planet explosions and their shield rating is in the TT range.

In your mind maybe. Especially since in 'Descent there kill by orders of magnitude less energy. Oh and the fact that the Federation ships in FC were able to batter down their shield. Federation torpedo are GT range I suppose in your mind. It should be obvious to anyone with a function brain, that those cubes were overkilled by that explosion; assuming one accepts that they were hit by TT range energy in the first place. I doubt very many here would except Borg has TT level shielding (none of the rational ones anyway). But to be charitable I will post calculation for you tomorrow.

guess you are blind and missed the numerous sited examples. Thats ok, its a common problem that trolls face. I also see where you completely missed the fact that BOBW had a relatively equal mix of large and small ships as FC did. I guess you ALSO missed the bit where both the TNG and DS9 TM state that the same torpedoes were in service in both engagements. Torpedoes are the primary striking power of Fed ships. Hmm, fire power change in the Federation between BOBW and FC didn't change THAT much. So how can it waltz through 40 Fed ships in BOBW in 10 minutes but as you claim manage to be defeated by 2 dozen Fed ships in FC while in combat for more then 3 hours?

Which sited examples are those? You have such a hard time staying on topic, you ramblings are somewhat hard to follow. You know that the TM's are not canon, I have them both by the way. But it does not matter that the weapons were the same yeild. The issue is the durability of the vessel firing the weapons. Further the FC ships were designed to fight the Borg, they undoubtly carry more torpedoes than the Wolf 359 ships. Finally phasers are still useful against the Borg, as evidence in in FC.

So I'm a troll am I? You really don't want to post the number of times you've been called a trolling idoit and worse do you? I answered every one of your points, I even conceded to one of the less ignorant points.

Since I'm working on my calcs, how about you shock the entire board and come up with some of your own; to support you ridiculous claims. I'm sure many here would find them amusing.

[Howedar]

Congratulations Spartan, you're an idiot.

[Spartan]

Howedar wrote:

Congratulations Spartan, you're an idiot.

Want to clarify that statement? Or are you just coming to a friends defense?

[Howedar]

I'm stating the obvious.

[Alyeska]

Alyeska wrote:

So are you saying that a Sovereign does not have superior shielding (i.e. lasting power in comparison to a Defiant class vessel? We are both speculating by the way.

All I am saying is that you have no canon evidence to support your claim. That is the entire basis of your arguments against me. No basis for fact to disagree with me, just the statement that I have no canon fact to back my side up. I am using your construction of argument against your own claim showing you how absurd your type of argument is.

On this board being called "a rabid fan" is practically a term of endearment.

Go piss off.

Thats not what happen in the episode 'One', which you by the way brought up as evidence. I see so Seven who has never encountered a changling, just knows that a completely alien and inorganic species half a galaxy away will be suceptible to Borg nanoprobe. We don't even no that the nanites used to assimilate life forms are the same ones used to assimilate technology. The ability to assimilate technology, does not translate into the ability to assimilate inorganic life forms (The Founders are not technology and they are not biological in the sense that the Borg have encountered). Everything has limits you know. By the way just hoe would one assimilated a computer without first decrypting the computer files first? Or do the borg just assimilate raw material?

I am referring to both VGR One and VGR Scorpion PT2. In VGR Scorpion PT 2 Seven uses her nano probes to attempt to take over Voyager and either destroy the ship or communicate with the Borg. And don't be an idiot. We know that the Borg have nanites inside of them. They use them for both communicaiton and assimilation. They are designed to corrupt a biological and render them capable of hearing the will of the Borg.

Nice try! What I meant to type was that they could not decrypt his computer files. Anyone reading this thread can plainly see that you held the veiw the Borg could assimilate Data because of his positronic brain. At least try to remember what you position is.

My position is that the Dominion can assimilate most computer systems. This is evidence by the fact that they assimilate most portions of the E-E that they controled. This is also evidence by Seven attempting to take over Voyager and when Seven's nano probes created a borg hatchery.

In all good things they don't say what part of the neutral zone there in do they? I concede that is can take days to travel from the neutral zone to Earth, but how many neither of us can prove how long it took. From the way its potrayed in the film it did not take several days travel time. We also don't know how many ships were in the initial engagement, or how far it took place from Earth. Emissary tells us that the Borg had six uninterrupted days of travel from Picard abduction till Wolf 359. The initial engagement could have been a token force, that was smashed. With the Cube traveling uninterrupted up until just prior to the arrival of the E-E. A running battle, which lasted several days, evolving hundreds of ships, is hardly the only possibility.

(activate Spartan Mode)
You have no canon proof the Neutral Zone is less then 12 hours from Earth!
(end Spartan Mode)

Sorry, I meant 6 day from Picard's abduction until the battle of Wolf 359. So it took six days to assemble 40 ships (including a Connie), and the Klingons who were sending ships still don't show up in time. Thanks for the gracious correction.

Sense the Feds according to canon can detect and even open existing transwarp conduits that's hardly a surprise. Given enough time I'm sure they could pull ships out of Utopia Planetia. 20+ ships is nowhere near 100 ships now is it. Thanks for supporting my position.

You claimed they can only get 40 ships in 6 days time as proof that FC had just a handful of ships. I pointed out that they can get 20+ ships in FIVE minutes time, this does NOT support your claim.

Tolerating you and laughing at your expense is hardly an indication that every likes you. As I see it, your everyone’s favorite trekkie chew toy.

Irrelevent flame with no substance or factual information

Okay you got me I'm less trekkie than you. I confused the names. I was thinking of the Vorcha class attack cruiser. Please provided evidence that a standard Nebula has a greater torpedo load out than a GCS. By the way your trekkieness an Akira class outguns your beloved Nebula and TNG era GCS. Just because some parts of the GCS spaceframe ended up incorporated in the Nebula class does not prove that they have equivalent combat power. A Nebula is not as powerful as a GCS, the GCS was consistently described for over seven years as the most powerful Federation ship type.

The Vorcha can be torn to pieces when a Jem'Hadar attackship rams it. A Galaxy class merely gets a large "dent" from the same attack. The Nebula uses the same parts (reference identical saucer and warp engines) for the majority of the ship while using some custom designs (near identical secondary hull, custom built pod and structural support). The weapons pod has 9 different ports for torpedoes. It has a full sized GCS launcher in the middle portion with 8 smaller type launchers (4 on each side). It also has a GCS type launcher between the Saucer and Engineering section. The partial Warpod version has double the GCS torpedo capacity while the full warpod has massive torpedo capacity. The Akira is a smaller ship with launchers that can't fire as many torpedoes and has less torpedo storage.

And the NCS is more powerful then the GCS. It has greater torpedo capability as well as better shielding systems. The only advantage the GCS has is its greater phaser capabilities.

FYI the 5 most powerful Federation ships are (not in order)
Nebula
Galaxy
Sovereign
Prometheus
Akira

In your mind maybe. Especially since in 'Descent there kill by orders of magnitude less energy. Oh and the fact that the Federation ships in FC were able to batter down their shield. Federation torpedo are GT range I suppose in your mind. It should be obvious to anyone with a function brain, that those cubes were overkilled by that explosion; assuming one accepts that they were hit by TT range energy in the first place. I doubt very many here would except Borg has TT level shielding (none of the rational ones anyway). But to be charitable I will post calculation for you tomorrow.

FYI Descent had a Rogue Borg ship that was actually one of their flying bombs. There is also the fact that the calculations used to judge the Coronal ejection fail to take into account that it does not act like a standard coronal ejection. Also I dare you to find where I claimed GT level torpedoes. I merely stated that Scorpion can have figures like TT range, not that they are reasonable. The larget torpedo firepower I accept for Trek is no more then 2 GT for the Quantum Torpedo, and that is HIGH end. Its likely much less.

Which sited examples are those? You have such a hard time staying on topic, you ramblings are somewhat hard to follow. You know that the TM's are not canon, I have them both by the way. But it does not matter that the weapons were the same yeild. The issue is the durability of the vessel firing the weapons. Further the FC ships were designed to fight the Borg, they undoubtly carry more torpedoes than the Wolf 359 ships. Finally phasers are still useful against the Borg, as evidence in in FC.

I could have sworn I stated multiple examples from Seven as well as a firepower example from Scorpion...

I guess you missed the fact that Torpedoes showed more damage in FC then phaser hits. Blind again. And where do you get this information that Fed ships in FC were designed to fight the Borg? Oh yeah... NON CANON INFORMATION. Oh, sucks to be you.

So I'm a troll am I? You really don't want to post the number of times you've been called a trolling idoit and worse do you? I answered every one of your points, I even conceded to one of the less ignorant points.

Well seeing as SD.net has a lot of ASVS members and most of them don't seem to consider me a troll, I don't place much value on your claims.

Since I'm working on my calcs, how about you shock the entire board and come up with some of your own; to support you ridiculous claims. I'm sure many here would find them amusing.

What calcs would that be? Your going to base the damage capability of a Borg ship based on incomplete battle footage? Brilliant.

[Gandalf]

the fleet that we see in FC are all new post Wolf 359 ship; and each one built from the keel up to combat the Borg

Actually the only ships actually designed to fight the Borg were the Defiant class ships, and we've seen only 2, possibly 3.

1.The Defiant
2. USS Valiant (The Red Squad ship)
3. One that EMH runs into when he is in the AQ on the Prometheus, though that may be the Defiant.