Theocratic countries of the world

[Surlethe]

Fact is, most prostitutes live very poor and unhappy lives and feel that the very nature of their profession humiliates and enslaves them and their bodies. The "happy hooker" is generally considered a myth by sociologists. Very few people choose to become prostitutes, most who do have been sexually abused when they were very young. This is certainly the impression I get from reading newspaper articles by ex-prostitutes or sociologists who study prostitution.

So prostitution and sexual abuse as a youth take away free will? That's news to me.

[Joe]

The PM himself is Christian, verging on the likes of Bush in some respects, yet I seem to recall all the news of raving Creationists tearing down science, anti-abortion terrorists hitting clinics and general bigotry coming from that bastion of freedom and tolerance, the good ol' US of A.

Four of your homegrown fundies killed ten times as many people in one day as abortion clinic violence killed in twenty years not three weeks ago and you want to rag on us for having religious violence?

[RedImperator]

(for example, all anti-prostitution laws are basically religious in nature, serving no recognizable secular purpose)

I will have to disagree with you about that. A lot of sociologists who have experience with prostitutes, as well as a lot of former prostitutes, think it should be illegal without having any religious motivations for doing so.

Fact is, most prostitutes live very poor and unhappy lives and feel that the very nature of their profession humiliates and enslaves them and their bodies. The "happy hooker" is generally considered a myth by sociologists. Very few people choose to become prostitutes, most who do have been sexually abused when they were very young. This is certainly the impression I get from reading newspaper articles by ex-prostitutes or sociologists who study prostitution.

And that would have absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the legal status of prostitution puts the industry in the hands of criminals, right? I'm not saying prostitutes are happy well-adjusted people under the best of circumstances, but the practice isn't going away and banning it just makes the situation worse. And most anti-prostitution laws aren't justified on sociological grounds anyway--almost all fall under the category of morality laws.

[The Dark]

Does Israel count as a theocracy? Its basic claim to existence is Biblical.

It also has a Qur'anic claim to existence, although I doubt many on either side would admit it.

Most of the true theocracies (rule by a religious organization) don't exist any more. Even Iran has a split rule. The only true theocracy I can come up with off the top of my head is the Holy See (Vatican City). There are plenty of nations that pander to a particular religion, whether it be something as small as Germany's church tax to Saudi Arabia's religious law, but very few true theocracies.

[Zero]

The only logical reason that prostitution should be illegal is that the spread of STDs isn't something that's so simple to control, but since it's going to happen anyways, it would really be a lot smarter to legalize it, and regulate it. Aside from that, hookers may feel that their lives are shit, and that their job is degrading, but would they necessarily feel that way if it weren't illegal, and weren't looked down on as the lowest of professions? The way I see it, if they could eliminate it by making it illegal, that'd be nice, but as is, the situation's only worse because prostitution is illegal.

[Hillary]

EDIT: Let's get this straight.

The UK is not a theocracy, as its laws are not religion based. It is also not a Secular state.

I would agree.

[The Guid]

And yet... to argue with myself I have to point out the problems with legalising gay marriage in Britain. We have to have "civil unions" if IIRC. That's not secular is it?

[Admiral Valdemar]

Four of your homegrown fundies killed ten times as many people in one day as abortion clinic violence killed in twenty years not three weeks ago and you want to rag on us for having religious violence?

I'm not just talking religious violence here (where those terrorists were indoctrinated outside the nation anyway), I'm talking general religious asshattery. The sort that gets into political ideals. From the Ten Commandments statue to the fact that several states still question evolution, there's far more religious nutjobs over there than here.

[Peregrin Toker]

(for example, all anti-prostitution laws are basically religious in nature, serving no recognizable secular purpose)

I will have to disagree with you about that. A lot of sociologists who have experience with prostitutes, as well as a lot of former prostitutes, think it should be illegal without having any religious motivations for doing so.

Fact is, most prostitutes live very poor and unhappy lives and feel that the very nature of their profession humiliates and enslaves them and their bodies. The "happy hooker" is generally considered a myth by sociologists. Very few people choose to become prostitutes, most who do have been sexually abused when they were very young. This is certainly the impression I get from reading newspaper articles by ex-prostitutes or sociologists who study prostitution.

And that would have absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the legal status of prostitution puts the industry in the hands of criminals, right? I'm not saying prostitutes are happy well-adjusted people under the best of circumstances, but the practice isn't going away and banning it just makes the situation worse. And most anti-prostitution laws aren't justified on sociological grounds anyway--almost all fall under the category of morality laws.

Actually, the newspaper articles I have quoted are from Danish newspapers, and prostitution is legal here in Denmark.

there are also a lot who simply do it because its good money. Nothing more, nothing less

Perhaps, but these are in the minority. What you write is certainly not the impression I get from reading newspaper articles about it written by sociologists who had studied prostitution as it occurs in a country where it is legal (ie. Denmark). Exactly where have you gotten that impression you have? I can at least back up what I stated with sociology.

[Darth Wong]

Actually, the newspaper articles I have quoted are from Danish newspapers, and prostitution is legal here in Denmark.

So? I'm sure there are going to be people in any society who dislike prostitution. But "this is a bad way to make a living" and "people should be thrown in prison for doing this" are two entirely different claims.

Perhaps, but these are in the minority. What you write is certainly not the impression I get from reading newspaper articles about it written by sociologists who had studied prostitution as it occurs in a country where it is legal (ie. Denmark). Exactly where have you gotten that impression you have? I can at least back up what I stated with sociology.

Don't pretend that sociology is an objective science. What you can do is show that some sociologists think that prostitution is a terrible thing. I can also cite sociologists who think that violent videogames should be banned, pornography causes rape, and music lyrics cause suicide. None of these things, however, find their way into the legal codes. Prostitution did, and it's because of religious reasons.

We'd be a mightily fucked society if we enacted every recommendation from any sociologist into law.

[wautd]

Hearing a lot of debates during the years about prostitution in Belgium and hearing both sides. Watching a lot of documentaries about the same thing. The red light district in Antwerp is a good example how it can work: good co-op between city and hookers, safe & clean. Most prostitutes like what they do. Brussels would be an example of how not to do it as it suffers from the Albanian maffia (trash that respect nothing and who trow woman in prostitution against their will)

[Peregrin Toker]

Hearing a lot of debates during the years about prostitution in Belgium and hearing both sides. Watching a lot of documentaries about the same thing. The red light district in Antwerp is a good example how it can work: good co-op between city and hookers, safe & clean. Most prostitutes like what they do.

Well, perhaps it is different in Antwerp than how it happens in Denmark; I get the impression that the vast majority of Danish prostitutes, if not practically every single of them, do not like what they are doing and would rather not be prostitutes.

Don't pretend that sociology is an objective science. What you can do is show that some sociologists think that prostitution is a terrible thing. I can also cite sociologists who think that violent videogames should be banned, pornography causes rape, and music lyrics cause suicide. None of these things, however, find their way into the legal codes. Prostitution did, and it's because of religious reasons.

Why is sociology not an objective science? The vast majority of Danish sociologists who have studied prostitution (at least the ones who write to newspapers about it) have arrived at the conclusion that prostitution is harmful. The same thing applies to prostitutes who are interviewed by newspapers about it; they feel that their occupation is extremely humiliating and degrading, and they do definately not enjoy it.

We'd be a mightily fucked society if we enacted every recommendation from any sociologist into law.

[Elheru Aran]

This reminds me mightily of Heinlein's predictions as to the state of America in the future... look up his 'Job, a Comedy of Justice' and the short story 'If This Goes On'. In the former, the protagonist comes from an America which is every fundie's wet dream-- I keep meaning to post regarding that, but never get around to it -- and the latter depicts a thorough theocracy, where a Prophet, viewed as the reincarnation of the first Prophet, rules over a land dominated by priests and the Angels of the Lord (a religiously indoctrinated military). Both are mildly extreme, but the Job one was just a wee bit scary...

[Surlethe]

The same thing applies to prostitutes who are interviewed by newspapers about it; they feel that their occupation is extremely humiliating and degrading, and they do definately not enjoy it.

Prostitution is legal in Denmar. Unless the prostitutes aren't protected by the law (in which case it's the law which is fucked up, not the prostitutes), if they don't like it, why don't the get the fuck out of the job?

As I pointed out above, I was unaware prostitution took away free will.

[Plushie]

The same thing applies to prostitutes who are interviewed by newspapers about it; they feel that their occupation is extremely humiliating and degrading, and they do definately not enjoy it.

Prostitution is legal in Denmar. Unless the prostitutes aren't protected by the law (in which case it's the law which is fucked up, not the prostitutes), if they don't like it, why don't the get the fuck out of the job?

As I pointed out above, I was unaware prostitution took away free will.

Simply quitting your job when you aren't financially stable and while probably lacking any real job skills is tantamount to giving up everything you own and converting to Buddhism in modern society. You should know better than that.

[Vendetta]

Simply quitting your job when you aren't financially stable and while probably lacking any real job skills is tantamount to giving up everything you own and converting to Buddhism in modern society. You should know better than that.

And state unemployment and jobseeker benefits that everyone else uses are not applicable because?

[Surlethe]

Simply quitting your job when you aren't financially stable and while probably lacking any real job skills is tantamount to giving up everything you own and converting to Buddhism in modern society. You should know better than that.

And state unemployment and jobseeker benefits that everyone else uses are not applicable because?

Thank you, Vendetta. Beat me to it.

[Pcm979]

Four of your homegrown fundies killed ten times as many people in one day as abortion clinic violence killed in twenty years not three weeks ago and you want to rag on us for having religious violence?

I'm guessing that you live in an alternate universe where Islamic Fundamentalists are a powerful and mainstream voting bloc in British politics. Either that or the point passed over your head with a cute 'Zing' sound.

[Peregrin Toker]

Simply quitting your job when you aren't financially stable and while probably lacking any real job skills is tantamount to giving up everything you own and converting to Buddhism in modern society. You should know better than that.

And state unemployment and jobseeker benefits that everyone else uses are not applicable because?

I know, but it appears that a lot of Danish prostitutes started prostitution back in their highschool years to such an extent that their education suffered and it is the only jobs they could take. Yes, they could go on the dole, but a fact is that most of them are apparently drug addicts (which they seemingly are forced into because of the degrading job, thusly forming an evil circle) and cannot support their habit on the dole alone.

[Plushie]

Simply quitting your job when you aren't financially stable and while probably lacking any real job skills is tantamount to giving up everything you own and converting to Buddhism in modern society. You should know better than that.

And state unemployment and jobseeker benefits that everyone else uses are not applicable because?

Oh, Europe, right. Forgot for a second.

[Surlethe]

Simply quitting your job when you aren't financially stable and while probably lacking any real job skills is tantamount to giving up everything you own and converting to Buddhism in modern society. You should know better than that.

And state unemployment and jobseeker benefits that everyone else uses are not applicable because?

I know, but it appears that a lot of Danish prostitutes started prostitution back in their highschool years to such an extent that their education suffered and it is the only jobs they could take. Yes, they could go on the dole, but a fact is that most of them are apparently drug addicts (which they seemingly are forced into because of the degrading job, thusly forming an evil circle) and cannot support their habit on the dole alone.

Oh, so now, if you're a prostitute, you're also a drug addict. I'm sure there are no rehabilitation centers for drug addicts in Denmark, right?

[Peregrin Toker]

And state unemployment and jobseeker benefits that everyone else uses are not applicable because?

I know, but it appears that a lot of Danish prostitutes started prostitution back in their highschool years to such an extent that their education suffered and it is the only jobs they could take. Yes, they could go on the dole, but a fact is that most of them are apparently drug addicts (which they seemingly are forced into because of the degrading job, thusly forming an evil circle) and cannot support their habit on the dole alone.

Oh, so now, if you're a prostitute, you're also a drug addict. I'm sure there are no rehabilitation centers for drug addicts in Denmark, right?

Of course there are, but is it not thought-provoking that so many prostitutes take up drug abuse in order to get a relief from the misery of their jobs?

[Surlethe]

Of course there are, but is it not thought-provoking that so many prostitutes take up drug abuse in order to get a relief from the misery of their jobs?

Translation: "Prostitution is a miserable job; therefore, it should be illegal."

I have pity, but little respect, for someone who takes up drugs to get away from a miserable job instead of getting their ass out of it.

[Peregrin Toker]

Of course there are, but is it not thought-provoking that so many prostitutes take up drug abuse in order to get a relief from the misery of their jobs?

Translation: "Prostitution is a miserable job; therefore, it should be illegal."

I have pity, but little respect, for someone who takes up drugs to get away from a miserable job instead of getting their ass out of it.

Things are not that simple. Since, as I mentioned before, a lot of prostitutes started doing so in their teenage years at the expense of education, they cannot secure any other jobs, and if they all went on the dole it would put a strain on the welfare system.

Statistics have also shown that the majority of men who use the services of prostitutes are already married, which means that prostitution makes money off marital infidelity and familial dysfunction. (the studies which showed this made headlines in Danish newspapers, BTW - I can try to find some specific newspapers and researchers to refer to later, if you desire)

[Surlethe]

Of course there are, but is it not thought-provoking that so many prostitutes take up drug abuse in order to get a relief from the misery of their jobs?

Translation: "Prostitution is a miserable job; therefore, it should be illegal."

I have pity, but little respect, for someone who takes up drugs to get away from a miserable job instead of getting their ass out of it.

Things are not that simple.

Unfortunately, that's your argument condensed.

Since, as I mentioned before, a lot of prostitutes started doing so in their teenage years at the expense of education, they cannot secure any other jobs, and if they all went on the dole it would put a strain on the welfare system.

Oh, my -- a strain on the welfare system! Heaven forbid we legalize prostitution; it might strain the welfare system!

Statistics have also shown that the majority of men who use the services of prostitutes are already married, which means that prostitution makes money off marital infidelity and familial dysfunction. (the studies which showed this made headlines in Danish newspapers, BTW - I can try to find some specific newspapers and researchers to refer to later, if you desire)

Which is just another argument to legalize it so it can be regulated; then, if it turns out to be unprofitable, prostitution will die on its own without any help from the government.