Munchkin gaming, Low-level and high-level play

Evil Sadistic Bastard · Post by **Evil Sadistic Bastard** » 2002-11-25 11:16am

Is it me, or does munchkinism result in games becoming kill-a-thons? Do peopel prefer high-level to low-level games or vice versa?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-11-25 11:18am

For me seriously I prefer...any level Role Playing.

The problem is when you do munchkin...all you are on is a kill-a thon...and heck I can boot up any FF or any computer RPG and do that.

It's fun for a couple hours but after a while it really feels...what's the point.

Evil Sadistic Bastard · Post by **Evil Sadistic Bastard** » 2002-11-25 11:20am

Damn straight. The fun in low-level, IMO is building up all the way and watching our character grow. The middle elvels are the hardest because you've got a taste of power and you want it ALL, RIGHT NOW!!!!!!! High level is okay as long as it doesn't become another clear out the abyss for XP game.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-11-25 11:24am

Yeah Low levels...have the feeling of RPing and usualy promotes more brain power(doesn't mean high but you have so much more at your disposal)

Mid...is painful because like you said...you have a taste of TRUE power, and yet have to deal with things that aren't up to snuff...still fun but a struggle, still has some RPing.

High(and I don't mean 18...I mean hitting 30's) is my guy trying to wonder what country to crush next and how many clones does he have to spare.

Evil Sadistic Bastard · Post by **Evil Sadistic Bastard** » 2002-11-25 11:44am

True true...

I am shocked by people who claim high level is 10th level... More like 30th level.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2002-11-25 06:16pm

I love actaul role-playing. It helps me develope my acting skills. But when I Dm my villians are on all-out killathon. I activly try to kill my party opf adventurers. And whn i am actyually in a party, I roleplay my chaaracters, but also go slighly munchkin. I do what I need to do to survive in the capaign world I am in. Our iother Dm makes all of his villians, even the lowly minions uber pwerful for thier level. So I am forced to adapt to survive.

Personally i like starting in mid level (6-15) It allows me to develope my character, but stillallows me to cast some nice spells.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2002-11-25 06:17pm

Note, only my main villians are munchkin-ish

Skelron · Post by **Skelron** » 2002-11-25 07:39pm

The problem I find in D+D is a Mage, Low levels consist of the mage running out throwing out his one or two magic missles then running into cover again doing very little else for the rest of the adventure... which makes a mage a hard character to play at lower levels, plus he's screwed on hit points... (unless you are a Sun Elf in faerun as I found out! Love Mind over Body...)

Evil Sadistic Bastard · Post by **Evil Sadistic Bastard** » 2002-11-25 07:43pm

Skelron wrote:The problem I find in D+D is a Mage, Low levels consist of the mage running out throwing out his one or two magic missles then running into cover again doing very little else for the rest of the adventure... which makes a mage a hard character to play at lower levels, plus he's screwed on hit points... (unless you are a Sun Elf in faerun as I found out! Love Mind over Body...)

What does that do? Int mod to hp?

And if you're a weak little mage, RUN LIKE A PANSY. Like the saying goes, he who casts and runs away, lives to cast another day.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-11-25 07:47pm

Actually funnily enough for low level mages...damage should not be your main goal...instead bolstering the party and casting Sleep.

MM sucks at low levels...but then gets decent.

Honestly I don't know why so many 1st level mages reach for it...it'll be there later on and it's not it's a rare spell or something

Kelly Antilles · Post by **Kelly Antilles** » 2002-11-25 07:49pm

oh come on, if you make a sensible mage, you can do anything. I really hate munchkin games. They suck. I've been lucky enough to have some very good DMs who actually have a story to their games instead of just hack'n'slash.

It's fun to take a character you've made with a background and everything and work them up through the levels. That's so much more fun than making high-level characters without a history. What's to roleplay?

Evil Sadistic Bastard · Post by **Evil Sadistic Bastard** » 2002-11-25 07:51pm

Ghost Rider wrote:Actually funnily enough for low level mages...damage should not be your main goal...instead bolstering the party and casting Sleep.

MM sucks at low levels...but then gets decent.

Honestly I don't know why so many 1st level mages reach for it...it'll be there later on and it's not it's a rare spell or something

MM is ALWAYS helpful. You can combo a spell and an Xbow shot in the same round (both are partial actions IIRC). Very few stuff survives that (at least in the CR 1-3 range)

SLeep isn't powerful enough IMO, thugh it is quite an interesting spell. COmpletely disable a weak opponent so the fighter can CDG him.

And surprisingly, a mage's two favorite stats should be Int (or Cha) and Con. More hp = good. More Con = more hp and Concentration ranks. Therefore more Con = good. And if you ask why more Int = good I will smite you down with great vengeance and furious anger, and yuo shall know that my name is LORD.

Kelly Antilles · Post by **Kelly Antilles** » 2002-11-25 07:52pm

Are you guys talking the new d20 rules or the old rules?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-11-25 07:56pm

Looks like the new d20.

Quite frankly, if you're all 1st level, hunting Kobolds can be hazardous to your health. On the rare occasions I DM a group that low, they're more likely to run into puzzles and diplomatic situations than actual fights. They might have one at the end of an adventure.

Of course, I also have the ultimate cure for Munchkinism... I use Planescape. And no matter how cool you think you are, someone on the Planes can scrap you off their shoe.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2002-11-25 07:56pm

My D&D game is a mixture of dungeon hacking and low-key storytelling. Because the players are rather new, there is often a large plot going on but the characters unravel it slowly, with plenty of hacking, 'cause it's fun.

Personally, total hack'n'slash games with no story irritate me. Mindless killing is something I like to do in Diablo, not D&D

On the flip side games where you must bring together the Council of Imperators, wow them with your eloquent speech making, and then prepare a budget and gather rice rations for the armies of the Western Imperium all whilst developing deep inter-character romances, creating epic ballads and/or preparing a history of horsesales in your area, all without rolling a single die, bore the hell out of me. I realize that this is 'roleplaying' in the strictness sense of the word, but I want to kill something, goddamit!

Munchkins, however, irritate me- the ones that do nothing but pour over the rulebooks looking for flaws and loopholes to exploit in an attempt to make their characters uber-powered. Thusly, I tend to be conservative with rewards and exp. while creating creative enemies.

Remind me to tell you of the time I killed a lvl 15 wizard in one round with a kobold.

Post by **weemadando** » 2002-11-25 08:08pm

Last campaign I was in was vehemently anti-munchkin. The GM killed off a munchkin player 5 times before they got the idea that a munchkinned out character would not be accepted.

In the end we were at 15th level or so when the real world (aka University exams) took over.

Skelron · Post by **Skelron** » 2002-11-25 08:08pm

Evil Sadistic Bastard wrote:
Skelron wrote:The problem I find in D+D is a Mage, Low levels consist of the mage running out throwing out his one or two magic missles then running into cover again doing very little else for the rest of the adventure... which makes a mage a hard character to play at lower levels, plus he's screwed on hit points... (unless you are a Sun Elf in faerun as I found out! Love Mind over Body...)
What does that do? Int mod to hp?

And if you're a weak little mage, RUN LIKE A PANSY. Like the saying goes, he who casts and runs away, lives to cast another day.

Mind over body is a nice feat, it allows you to shift your hit points add on for first level from your con to your int. (later levels still use con through) also every meta magic feat you take gives you a bonus hit point only certain races can take it, such as Sun elves. (It doubled my guys hit points for his first level very Nice, added to the fact that it we are starting at second level my mage has more hit points now than the Ranger Rogue...)

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2002-11-25 08:09pm

Aaack! Rules lawyering! It burns! It burns!

Evil Sadistic Bastard · Post by **Evil Sadistic Bastard** » 2002-11-25 08:11pm

Skelron wrote:
Evil Sadistic Bastard wrote:
Skelron wrote:The problem I find in D+D is a Mage, Low levels consist of the mage running out throwing out his one or two magic missles then running into cover again doing very little else for the rest of the adventure... which makes a mage a hard character to play at lower levels, plus he's screwed on hit points... (unless you are a Sun Elf in faerun as I found out! Love Mind over Body...)
What does that do? Int mod to hp?

And if you're a weak little mage, RUN LIKE A PANSY. Like the saying goes, he who casts and runs away, lives to cast another day.
Mind over body is a nice feat, it allows you to shift your hit points add on for first level from your con to your int. (later levels still use con through) also every meta magic feat you take gives you a bonus hit point only certain races can take it, such as Sun elves. (It doubled my guys hit points for his first level very Nice, added to the fact that it we are starting at second level my mage has more hit points now than the Ranger Rogue...)

Then it would be excellent for wizards, sorcerers gain too few metamagic feats for the scond benefit to be really helpful. Or you could wait till Epic levels and take the Epic Toughness feat (+20hp)

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-11-25 08:13pm

It happens...but eh.

As for 15th level dying to Kobold...one stupid 15th.

Skelron · Post by **Skelron** » 2002-11-25 08:22pm

Evil Sadistic Bastard wrote:
Skelron wrote:[quote="Evil Sadistic
What does that do? Int mod to hp?
Mind over body is a nice feat, it allows you to shift your hit points add on for first level from your con to your int. (later levels still use con through) also every meta magic feat you take gives you a bonus hit point only certain races can take it, such as Sun elves. (It doubled my guys hit points for his first level very Nice, added to the fact that it we are starting at second level my mage has more hit points now than the Ranger Rogue...)
Then it would be excellent for wizards, sorcerers gain too few metamagic feats for the scond benefit to be really helpful. Or you could wait till Epic levels and take the Epic Toughness feat (+20hp)

Yep it's a Mage feat... (Sun Elves excel at being Mages, gaining Plus two to Int rather than Dex) and espcially useful when I turn him into a fighter mage... (He has to get to third level spells first through, then he will go and train...)

Evil Sadistic Bastard · Post by **Evil Sadistic Bastard** » 2002-11-25 08:25pm

I wonder what is the exact definition of munchkinizing, because I like to play a decent character, but at the same time I don't want tot skimp otu on power. After all, your story is irrelevant when you're dead.

Skelron · Post by **Skelron** » 2002-11-25 08:43pm

Aye, I suppose it's when the character concept becomes based around what feats power you up the most. (At least thats what it is for me.) I prefer to think of what I want to play first then Gen him up, In this case I wanted to play an Elf returning from Evermeet as the Retreat is over and many Elves are Leaving Evermeet and rejoining the main land. After that I choose Mage, then read the fluff more, it was a coincidence that mages and Sun Elfs where so well made for each other, I choose Sun Elf, as I've played normal elves a lot, I wanted something a little different, and Sun Elve's make up 50% of Evermeet's population the over 3 good Elf species share the other 50%. After that I choose mind over Body, yes it powered me up, why shouldn't I allow myself to be powered up? To say, oh don't do that it's power gaming is silly, as long as the idea comes first, anything that helps you realise that concept is good.

Evil Sadistic Bastard · Post by **Evil Sadistic Bastard** » 2002-11-25 08:48pm

Skelron wrote:Aye, I suppose it's when the character concept becomes based around what feats power you up the most. (At least thats what it is for me.) I prefer to think of what I want to play first then Gen him up, In this case I wanted to play an Elf returning from Evermeet as the Retreat is over and many Elves are Leaving Evermeet and rejoining the main land. After that I choose Mage, then read the fluff more, it was a coincidence that mages and Sun Elfs where so well made for each other, I choose Sun Elf, as I've played normal elves a lot, I wanted something a little different, and Sun Elve's make up 50% of Evermeet's population the over 3 good Elf species share the other 50%. After that I choose mind over Body, yes it powered me up, why shouldn't I allow myself to be powered up? To say, oh don't do that it's power gaming is silly, as long as the idea comes first, anything that helps you realise that concept is good.

OMG you sound like the elven munchkin friend of mine who only ever wants to play a high elf king and look down on others... and to him High Elf means Noldor, so the elves are bigger stronger and faster than humans.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2002-11-25 08:58pm

Dammit! I just wrote out the entire four-paragraph story explaining how the 15th lvl wizard was killed by a kobold and I LOST THE FRICKIN' POST!