Thanks alot, Mr. Wong. . . .I used to be a good Christian.

[Magnetic]

FSTargetDrone, if this instructor offers it again, I probably will take it. I have to have certain number of upper division classes to complete my major. Oh, someone stated that this instructor was probably a Christian. Hardly. I would place him more in the Secular Humanist ideology. I actually had him in another class a couple of semesters ago. History of Modern Art. He's a very good instructor!

That's good. Take a variety of classes, as much as you can. Branch out. Perhaps some philosphy, literature, maybe a science class, astronomy, something. Some of the best classes I took were art history. It has nothing to do with what I do now, but it was nice to have the experience.

I'm actually going to have a BS in Design Arts, so the Art History classes fit the bill very well. I would like to take an astronomy class, but I have about 5 classes left for graduation, and a intro astronomy class wouldn't help that endevour and would just prove to cost me another $500 or so.

[Tiger Ace]

(like whether or not God helped the Israelites leave Egypt or they did it all by themselves).

Or whether they were never there at all, but were at one stage dominated or annexed by the Egyptian Empire in the New Kingdom, as history and archeology tell.

Huh? I have never heard of this before, could you explain more?

[Darth Wong]

(like whether or not God helped the Israelites leave Egypt or they did it all by themselves).

Or whether they were never there at all, but were at one stage dominated or annexed by the Egyptian Empire in the New Kingdom, as history and archeology tell.

Huh? I have never heard of this before, could you explain more?

It's common knowledge outside the Christian community. There is no archaeological evidence whatsoever for the Exodus across the desert. No gravesites, no campsites, no fossils, nothing to mark this 40 year journey of hundreds of thousands of people through the desert. This is, quite simply, utterly impossible if the journey did in fact take place. The only logical conclusion is that the journey did not take place. Add to that the logistical difficulties of actually traversing a desert with such a large caravan despite its scarcity of food and water, and it all adds up to a story which is obviously false.

[John of the Dead]

Darth Wong wrote:

There is no archaeological evidence whatsoever for the Exodus across the desert. No gravesites, no campsites, no fossils, nothing to mark this 40 year journey of hundreds of thousands of people through the desert.

Actually, it was supposedly 80 years in the desert: 40 years to get there, but they were wicked and unjust, so they had to wander around ANOTHER 40 years while that generation died off. Moses himself wasn't even allowed to enter the Promised Land.

Or so the story goes.

[Magnetic]

Or whether they were never there at all, but were at one stage dominated or annexed by the Egyptian Empire in the New Kingdom, as history and archeology tell.

Huh? I have never heard of this before, could you explain more?

It's common knowledge outside the Christian community. There is no archaeological evidence whatsoever for the Exodus across the desert. No gravesites, no campsites, no fossils, nothing to mark this 40 year journey of hundreds of thousands of people through the desert. This is, quite simply, utterly impossible if the journey did in fact take place. The only logical conclusion is that the journey did not take place. Add to that the logistical difficulties of actually traversing a desert with such a large caravan despite its scarcity of food and water, and it all adds up to a story which is obviously false.

In Judaism (so I've heard), the number 40 seems to represent 'completion'. Raining 40 days and 40 nights, in the desert for 40 years, Moses on the mountain for 40 days and 40 nights (where Moses neither ate or drank anything), etc.

[Darth Wong]

In Judaism (so I've heard), the number 40 seems to represent 'completion'. Raining 40 days and 40 nights, in the desert for 40 years, Moses on the mountain for 40 days and 40 nights (where Moses neither ate or drank anything), etc.

It's true that the number 40 recurs heavily in the Bible, and is probably not even meant to be accurate in any of those cases. However, the absence of any archaeological evidence for this mass exodus across the desert remains an insuperable problem for people wishing to claim that the journey actually took place, even if you leave aside the logistical difficulties. Even shortening the journey to one year would still not solve this problem.

[Edi]

Or whether they were never there at all, but were at one stage dominated or annexed by the Egyptian Empire in the New Kingdom, as history and archeology tell.

Huh? I have never heard of this before, could you explain more?

It's common knowledge outside the Christian community. There is no archaeological evidence whatsoever for the Exodus across the desert. No gravesites, no campsites, no fossils, nothing to mark this 40 year journey of hundreds of thousands of people through the desert. This is, quite simply, utterly impossible if the journey did in fact take place. The only logical conclusion is that the journey did not take place. Add to that the logistical difficulties of actually traversing a desert with such a large caravan despite its scarcity of food and water, and it all adds up to a story which is obviously false.

There is also an archaeological explanation for the Sinai story, though it is little known. There is incontrovertible evidence of the Egyptians using Israelite slaves in mica mines that were located - surprise - in Sinai. All it takes is a group of escaped slaves making it back to their homeland and their tale growing in the telling, and later when the break away from Egypt happens and the outer provinces are lost, eventually the legends get mingled, conjoined, distorted and exaggerated enough. And that's when you start having massive exoduses from a place they never inhabited through deserts they never crossed.

For anyone who is interested in a relatively concise, eay to read summary on the what, how and why of the various legends from that region, I heartily recommend John Mann's excellent AlphaBeta, which is a history of the modern, alphabetical writing system we use. Since the alphabet as we know it ultimately originated in ancient Egypt and the Middle East and the time periods coincide with a lot of Biblical events, they are rather extensively discussed as far as they pertain to the alphabet. Which is a surprising amounbt of text and gives a very interesting insight to the whole damned process.

The Bible as written for us is nothing but Israelites of a far later era projecting the power and prosperity back into the past that never experienced such plenty and then writing their legends down according to that and suitably embellished to impress their contemporaries..

Edi

[wolveraptor]

I thought the English Alphabet was Phoenician in origin.

[Coyote]

In my Biblical Archaeology class in Ben-Gurion University in Israel, we discussed the different ways the Sinai Exodus story could have been interpreted. The Egyptian Empire did have considerable influence in the Canaan region and any band of people living there could very well have simply crossed any of a number of minor rivers in the area and literally "leave the Egyptian Empire" through a requisite water crossing. Inflating the story to heroic/epic proportions each generation leaves one with a hell of a tale of miracles and such later on.

But it was in response to the comprehension that there is 100% zero evidence backing up the mass migration claim. And the archaeologist I worked with (Dr. Steve Rosen) pointed out Pre-Pottery Neolithic sites with bare handfuls of evidence left behind by smaller wandering bands. It is an adventure tale, probably based on some random or minor event, that got blown out of proportion as time went on.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

In my Biblical Archaeology class in Ben-Gurion University in Israel, we discussed the different ways the Sinai Exodus story could have been interpreted. The Egyptian Empire did have considerable influence in the Canaan region and any band of people living there could very well have simply crossed any of a number of minor rivers in the area and literally "leave the Egyptian Empire" through a requisite water crossing. Inflating the story to heroic/epic proportions each generation leaves one with a hell of a tale of miracles and such later on.

But it was in response to the comprehension that there is 100% zero evidence backing up the mass migration claim. And the archaeologist I worked with (Dr. Steve Rosen) pointed out Pre-Pottery Neolithic sites with bare handfuls of evidence left behind by smaller wandering bands. It is an adventure tale, probably based on some random or minor event, that got blown out of proportion as time went on.

I actually think that Freud may have been right about some Aten-worshippers influencing the developing of monotheism among the Jews. It may not have even required them to escape from the pagan Reaction in Egypt--they could have been exiled there intentionally in the first place, since living in some podunk tribalist feudatory on the Levant would be for an Egyptian the equivalent of getting sent to Siberia.

[Magnetic]

In my Biblical Archaeology class in Ben-Gurion University in Israel, we discussed the different ways the Sinai Exodus story could have been interpreted. The Egyptian Empire did have considerable influence in the Canaan region and any band of people living there could very well have simply crossed any of a number of minor rivers in the area and literally "leave the Egyptian Empire" through a requisite water crossing. Inflating the story to heroic/epic proportions each generation leaves one with a hell of a tale of miracles and such later on.

But it was in response to the comprehension that there is 100% zero evidence backing up the mass migration claim. And the archaeologist I worked with (Dr. Steve Rosen) pointed out Pre-Pottery Neolithic sites with bare handfuls of evidence left behind by smaller wandering bands. It is an adventure tale, probably based on some random or minor event, that got blown out of proportion as time went on.

I'm curious, coyote. How 'religious' was this Israel University. I realize that there are probably many 'secular' universities in Israel. Reason I ask is that the migration spoken of in Exodus is paramount to the Judism faith, I would think.

[Edi]

I thought the English Alphabet was Phoenician in origin.

The Phoenician alphabet has pretty strong roots in the Egyptian one as adapted in that region. Read the book I mentioned, it's well worth it.

Edi

[Jawawithagun]

Or regarding why God would create a Hell in the first place, they say that we are finite humans with finite minds, so we can't understand all that God is.

Though the Bible says we were supposedly "created in God's own image". Does that mean we're a cheap Taiwanese ripoff or 100% compatible clone of the real thing?
And after a certain apple-induced event it has been said that all A&E lacked to become fully equal to God was immortality.
In my view the argument that we're incapable of understanding God because we're "only human" doesn't add up and directly contradicts parts of the bible.

Whereas there may be truth to that (if a being could create/bring about life, such being would have to be well beyond our technological understanding)[...]

Our current understanding, please. We DO learn more as time goes on!

[The Dark]

In Judaism (so I've heard), the number 40 seems to represent 'completion'. Raining 40 days and 40 nights, in the desert for 40 years, Moses on the mountain for 40 days and 40 nights (where Moses neither ate or drank anything), etc.

From what I've read, 40 tends to be the large number used for "holy completion" (7 is the small number).

I'm one of the religious denizens of the board. I've have a Bachelor's in Biblical Studies, and over the course of earning the degree went from a very conservative near-literalist to a liberal whose Bible study was called Heretics Unite because of how much we pissed off the thumpers. If you ever have any questions, go ahead and ask.

[Coyote]

I'm curious, coyote. How 'religious' was this Israel University. I realize that there are probably many 'secular' universities in Israel. Reason I ask is that the migration spoken of in Exodus is paramount to the Judism faith, I would think.

There are five major Universities in Israel:
Ben-Gurion Univesity of the Negev in Beer-Sheva
Technion, Haifa
Bar-Ilan University, Tel Aviv
Tel-Aviv University, Tel Aviv
Hebrew University, Jerusalem.

Hebrew U and Bar-Ilan are "religious"; whereas Tel-Aviv U, Ben-Gurion, and the Technion are not. The Technion, in Haifa, is a primary source of Israel's top engineers. There are a lot of doctors coming out of BGU (Ben-Gurion U) and some of the world's cutting-edge cancer research is done there. BGU has a repuation of being among the most "leftist" of institutions.

In Israel I am considered a 'leftist' whereas in the USA I am more of a conservative libertatian type (although the "political compass" puts me in the Libertarian Left).

The Exodus is a very important part of the faith which I follow but I can also see that it may well be a legend, or a retelling of actual events with a great deal of "dramatic liscence". I tend to see the Bible as allegory, and so in fact do many of the rabbis and religious leaders I mixed with over there. I had contact with Kabbalist Orthodox types in Tzfat, near the Yom ha'Kinneret ("Sea of Galilee"), who feel that the "Six Days of Creation" are allegorical and the actual formation of the world, etc, took place over billions of years.

Bear in mind, Jews are no more a monolithic faith bloc than, say, Christians-- there are many smaller groups and philosophies within Judaism that go well beyond Hassidic and Reform. There are YEC Jews and those who take the Bible as allegory. I'm in the latter camp.

If a person's feelings of faith hinge totally on one story in the Bible being 100% true, then I say their "faith" is written on air. Whatever happened Back In The Day was traumatic enough that it got told and retold and got bigger each time until it reached, well, Biblical proportions. The story of feet on the ground is not as important as what is being communicated behind the words-- that people felt their faith in God saw them through all kinds of trials and troubles.

So, anyhow, that's my approach to it.

[Magnetic]

I'm curious, coyote. How 'religious' was this Israel University. I realize that there are probably many 'secular' universities in Israel. Reason I ask is that the migration spoken of in Exodus is paramount to the Judism faith, I would think.

There are five major Universities in Israel:
Ben-Gurion Univesity of the Negev in Beer-Sheva
Technion, Haifa
Bar-Ilan University, Tel Aviv
Tel-Aviv University, Tel Aviv
Hebrew University, Jerusalem.

Hebrew U and Bar-Ilan are "religious"; whereas Tel-Aviv U, Ben-Gurion, and the Technion are not. The Technion, in Haifa, is a primary source of Israel's top engineers. There are a lot of doctors coming out of BGU (Ben-Gurion U) and some of the world's cutting-edge cancer research is done there. BGU has a repuation of being among the most "leftist" of institutions.

In Israel I am considered a 'leftist' whereas in the USA I am more of a conservative libertatian type (although the "political compass" puts me in the Libertarian Left).

The Exodus is a very important part of the faith which I follow but I can also see that it may well be a legend, or a retelling of actual events with a great deal of "dramatic liscence". I tend to see the Bible as allegory, and so in fact do many of the rabbis and religious leaders I mixed with over there. I had contact with Kabbalist Orthodox types in Tzfat, near the Yom ha'Kinneret ("Sea of Galilee"), who feel that the "Six Days of Creation" are allegorical and the actual formation of the world, etc, took place over billions of years.

Bear in mind, Jews are no more a monolithic faith bloc than, say, Christians-- there are many smaller groups and philosophies within Judaism that go well beyond Hassidic and Reform. There are YEC Jews and those who take the Bible as allegory. I'm in the latter camp.

If a person's feelings of faith hinge totally on one story in the Bible being 100% true, then I say their "faith" is written on air. Whatever happened Back In The Day was traumatic enough that it got told and retold and got bigger each time until it reached, well, Biblical proportions. The story of feet on the ground is not as important as what is being communicated behind the words-- that people felt their faith in God saw them through all kinds of trials and troubles.

So, anyhow, that's my approach to it.

A good word. Thanks, Coyote!

[Akaramu Shinja]

Having grown up with very different religions from my friends (Catholic, Jew, Mormon..sounds like a joke lol), I got a taste from all around. But was raised specifically as a Baptist, though I wouldn't say I was some kind of devout. My mother never forced me to go, only when I was with grandparents or my fathers side of the family.

Anyway, I was 14 when I gave up on the concept of organised Christianity and literal bible translation. My Uncles church put on a play I was forced to go to that was about Jesus being crucified etc, but at the end they added on this extra story set in Heaven. It had people being judged as they came through. They would show a good Christian, they got in, a bad person but Christian, they got in, then they come to the guy that was a good person, gave to charity, did everything right a human being should do, and they made it EXTREMELY clear he was evil and went to hell. Violently throwing him away to hell with screams and all that shit. Needless to say, the entire night at my Uncles was me screaming and yelling at him and his shitty church about how wrong they were (I was an emotional kid, and a jew was one of my best friends at the time, not to mention one of the best people I knew and his family), I couldn't take it. I refuse to step foot in a Baptist church again.

Now I'm not sure where I stand, perhaps along with you now Magnetic. Believing in the nature and intent of God, and seeing the Bible for its symbolic nature. I guess I feel like religion to me is more of a personal journey and I won't let anyone else tell me how I should worship or view it.

So yeah, thought I'd share. Someone else kind of in the same boat and all

[Magnetic]

Shinja, have you ever been to a Heaven's Gates, Hell's Flames play before? Similar things as the play you went to. They would have the 'bad person' who ended up in Hell, but would also through in the person who did good things, was an upstanding citizen, but never accepted Jesus, and he too would go to Hell, with the actors who played the role of demons taking him and dragging him off as the Angels turn their backs. The whole production is a scare tactic. This is what will happen if you don't accept, no matter how good of life you lead.

Yeah, 'religion' as a personal journey. And the way I'm feeling about it, a 'religion' that I can't really talk to anyone about. A personal journey is a good description for sure. More than what has been translated from writings that were, undoubtably, originaly stories that were passed on from generation to generation before being written down. Until I have some sort of major revelation, . . . . . . . I'm in 'spiritual limbo'. I'll probably be there for a long time.

[Dakarne]

I used to be a Christian, and then I turned Ten years old and got a clue, I have no reason to believe in an evil God, hell, half of the stuff Satan does hasn't even got a chance against God's evil.

The only religion which would barely suit me, is Taoism... and that's mainly the philosophy behind it...

And, to the original poster:

It is very good that you are broadening your horizons... and I applaud your shedding of the restrictions that the Bible has imposed on you.

[CaptJodan]

After reading these boards for a few years, I've pretty much avoided religious based topics on the boards at SDN until recently, when...for whatever reason, I felt like something to entertain my time.

Yeah, Wong is going to get me in so much trouble with my family.

I was raised under a religion called Seventh Day Adventists, which is just basically another one of your many offshoots of Christianity, more closely associated with a Southern Babtist outlook. (The differences between the two are few, just a different worshiping day, and a couple extra prophets) I was taken to church when I was little, but never really felt compelled to stick with it. One grandparent on both sides of my family were heavily religious, the other one less so. Over the years I've watched these grandparents thump the Bible so much trying to convert people.

I was never really into their version of the religion as it was. It was always too extremist for my tastes, generally looking at life in service to God rather than living your own life. Observing the effect it had on both my grandparents as they continued racist slurs, showed intollerance to other people, and generally made themselves look like complete asses gave me the impression that their religion wasn't right for me. Since that time, I've been guiding my own path, believing in spirituality, not religion. But I still tried to hold on to the truths of the Bible where I could with the 6 day creation, the Earth being a young Earth, etc.

Unfortunately, as many have described here, something never felt right about the literal meanings. Sure enough, reading these boards for the past few months really has me questioning even what I already thought I believed. It just doesn't make sense.

I still have not given up the idea of God as an entity. Call it self-delusion, but it's a delusion I choose to keep for this time in my life. Too many postiive things have happened in my life to be mere coincidence...things that the odds themselves spoke against. (my low SAT score for getting into the college of my choice was one of these big moments, among others) I still believe that, as others have mentioned, one has to find their own path in their own time. The best way to do this is to learn about as much as you can, both from the religion of your choice, perhaps other religions, and the world as we know it today. Knowledge, as it has always been, is the silver bullet to much of what you might be feeling. It's something that most religions discourage. They know this fact.

As for religion proper, I've pretty much fallen out of any organized version of religion. From what I've seen, many promote the "bury your head in the sand" type philosophy, while at the same time casting judgments on others AS IF they were God. Their intolerance of people in other religions (like someone said on this board, if you're born in another religion, you're still going to hell), gays, people of other ethicities at times, etc, makes religion nothing but a tool to be used to gather large groups of similar like people to hate other people different than them.

Not all teachings are this way, perhaps, but many of them are.

Keep learning all you can Magnetic, and don't limit yourself to any one thing. You may still be able to find a compromise for your faith and science.

[Magnetic]

Thanks, CaptJodan. I'm glad to read that I'm not the only person who has a struggle with these things. And yes, it would seem that knowledge is an Achilles heal, discovering new facts, observing what is obvious, information that screems an old earth, no actual world flood, etc. . . . and believe me when I say that it pains me to see such things realizing that what I've been taught all my life (more than 3 decades) weren't actual happenings. Even so, I do hold to some level of spirituality. Just not really sure how to qualify what it is.

Just a side note of something funny. For a while my brother had a signature (email) that said, "I was a fundamentalist for 25 years, . . but I'm feeling much better now!