The Joiner King (spoliers possible)

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-08-02 04:26am

Sure, why not? I don't really give a shit who they make an Admiral in the remnant. (Maybe they'd do a better job than Pellaeon or Daala

What's wrong with Pellaeon? I always thought he was one of the better EU characters.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2005-08-02 05:20am

Noble Ire wrote:
Sure, why not? I don't really give a shit who they make an Admiral in the remnant. (Maybe they'd do a better job than Pellaeon or Daala
What's wrong with Pellaeon? I always thought he was one of the better EU characters.

Tactically (at least prior to the NJO/Hand of Thrawn era) he was rather unimaginative and cautious by nature. He improved somewhat later on, ,but he's still not on the par of others (Bel Iblis, Ackbar, etc. IMHO.) He's more like the Drayson of the Imperial side, IMHO.

Tiger Ace · Post by **Tiger Ace** » 2005-08-02 06:12am

He isn't portrayed as a tactical or strategic genius though, he's protrayed as a maneger, a leader and someone who lets people who are good in their field work.

Its wrong to compare him to Bel Iblis or Ackbar, better to compare him to the NJO-era commander(sien something?).

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2005-08-02 07:26am

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Noble Ire wrote:
Sure, why not? I don't really give a shit who they make an Admiral in the remnant. (Maybe they'd do a better job than Pellaeon or Daala
What's wrong with Pellaeon? I always thought he was one of the better EU characters.
Tactically (at least prior to the NJO/Hand of Thrawn era) he was rather unimaginative and cautious by nature. He improved somewhat later on, ,but he's still not on the par of others (Bel Iblis, Ackbar, etc. IMHO.) He's more like the Drayson of the Imperial side, IMHO.

I would agree with the Drayson comparison (just doesn't have the chops to stand toe-to-toe with Ackbar/Bel Iblis), but the Daala link was just uncalled for.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-08-02 03:47pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Noble Ire wrote:
Sure, why not? I don't really give a shit who they make an Admiral in the remnant. (Maybe they'd do a better job than Pellaeon or Daala
What's wrong with Pellaeon? I always thought he was one of the better EU characters.
Tactically (at least prior to the NJO/Hand of Thrawn era) he was rather unimaginative and cautious by nature. He improved somewhat later on, ,but he's still not on the par of others (Bel Iblis, Ackbar, etc. IMHO.) He's more like the Drayson of the Imperial side, IMHO.

This is of course true, but not every admiral is a genius.
I thought it was interesting to see an Imperial who wasnt insane, an uber genius, or a nitwit explored in cetail. Besides, the idea of an Imperial being a "good guy" was kind of appealing.

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2005-08-02 10:51pm

Tiger Ace wrote:Its wrong to compare him to Bel Iblis or Ackbar, better to compare him to the NJO-era commander(sien something?).

Admiral Sien-Sovv.

Alan Bolte · Post by **Alan Bolte** » 2005-08-03 01:53am

Ewok pilot 5 years after Endor? Idiotic. Ewok pilot 30 years after Endor? What's the problem?

In other news, still not very interested in reading the newer books. However, I do have to hope that the Chiss get overrrun, the arrogant twits.

Caius · Post by **Caius** » 2005-08-03 09:48am

It's not like the Ewok has that big a roll in the book and I'm at 200 pages. (Give or take) He's actually a co-pilot and we don't read anything to do with his flying skills.

Dakarne · Post by **Dakarne** » 2005-08-03 09:57am

I don't mind an Ewok Pilot personally...

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2005-08-04 03:09pm

My issues are more the tech stuff in there - methane rockets and hydrogen burning (stated to be chemical, not fusion) rockets? The methane rockets would have a max delta V of 11,156 m/s, and earth escape velocity is 11,180 m/s! That's right people, a Saturn V can out run the things.

THen that hyperspace thing - what the fuck was that? Cause and effect still followed, but words came out backwards and they underwent physical streching and survived? Seriously, I mean what the hell was that?

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2005-08-04 03:32pm

Ender wrote:My issues are more the tech stuff in there - methane rockets and hydrogen burning (stated to be chemical, not fusion) rockets? The methane rockets would have a max delta V of 11,156 m/s, and earth escape velocity is 11,180 m/s! That's right people, a Saturn V can out run the things.

As I recall, this shocked Luke too when Artoo informed him. He assumed "nuclear rockets." So this is either unusual or an example of just how low-tech they are.

Besides, later on IIRC they have "hydrogen-burning" rockets, so they apparently do have access to fusion.

THen that hyperspace thing - what the fuck was that? Cause and effect still followed, but words came out backwards and they underwent physical streching and survived? Seriously, I mean what the hell was that?

Haven't read that far. Didnt you read the email I sent you?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2005-08-04 03:36pm

Rockets and "Hyperspace thing" in regards to what/whom? Would you mind putting it in spoiler tags?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2005-08-04 04:51pm

Why the fuck would you post in this if you were afraid of spoilers? This is not a speculation thread, so what else could spill out but spoilers?

Methane combustion rockets? Jesus Christ. I knew not allowing the post-ROTJ EU to die would be pathetic.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2005-08-04 05:03pm

I'm not afraid of spoilers, I just figured that some people might not want to know explicitly concerning the situations surrounding those subjects, considering that Ender seemed to be purposefully vague.

Gah, nevermind, that second sentence of mine was stupid. Forget about dressing them up, I'd just like to know what he's talking about.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2005-08-04 07:02pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Ender wrote:My issues are more the tech stuff in there - methane rockets and hydrogen burning (stated to be chemical, not fusion) rockets? The methane rockets would have a max delta V of 11,156 m/s, and earth escape velocity is 11,180 m/s! That's right people, a Saturn V can out run the things.
As I recall, this shocked Luke too when Artoo informed him. He assumed "nuclear rockets." So this is either unusual or an example of just how low-tech they are.

Besides, later on IIRC they have "hydrogen-burning" rockets, so they apparently do have access to fusion.

Nope - during the attack on the shadow they state chemical explosions. The burning is literal LH2/LOX, not fusion. More to the point, while fusion drives would make them more advanced, they would also make for a much lower acceleration, compounding that major problem.

THen that hyperspace thing - what the fuck was that? Cause and effect still followed, but words came out backwards and they underwent physical streching and survived? Seriously, I mean what the hell was that?
Haven't read that far. Didnt you read the email I sent you?

Looking at it now. Office has been secured lately while we were out. Tomorrow when I'm off duty I'll type up and send you the quote.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2005-08-06 05:50am

Well I lowered my expectations for the book after checking out this thread and am still disappointed in the book. For reasons already mentioned.

Caius · Post by **Caius** » 2005-08-06 10:08am

Having just finished the book the other day I have to say I'm not really impressed with it. There were a fair bit of things I did enjoy, and I did like the sort of expanded way the jedi were using the force. And the not to subtle hints about what path Luke all felt they were taking.

It was the whole joiner nest plot that bothered me. A collective mind certainly has been over done in books and this had nothing new to add or really stand out. A lot of the times it just felt like the same chapter being rewritten almost like he was writing in circles to fill the page quota.

I’ll still read the next ones, because I am a sucker. And well I sort of look forward to what’s going on with Leia in the next books.

Tychu · Post by **Tychu** » 2005-08-06 03:34pm

To get off the Ewok thing, i mean Ewoks can learn and plus ive only started the book but it could be like what they did in the Xwing books by having an "Ewok" pilot so the Imps thought it was an Ewok to confuse them

anyways the book takes place 5 years after NJO, Ben Skywalker plays some kind of role in the series, and Jaina and Jacen feel a tremor in the force and have to go to the Unknown regions, where they cause trouble because the Chiss believe that they can deal with the problem themselves and feel the Galactic Federation of Free Alliances is intruding on their space

I guess the Chiss Vanguards in the NJO couldnt quell Chiss and GFFA tensions

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2005-08-06 06:44pm

Ender wrote: Nope - during the attack on the shadow they state chemical explosions.

Chemical explosives. "primitive" chemical explosions. Weapons of some kind, not propulsion.

The burning is literal LH2/LOX, not fusion. More to the point, while fusion drives would make them more advanced, they would also make for a much lower acceleration, compounding that major problem.

Given that some starfighters use some sort of "fusion engine" as well, ,I kind of question that. (Given that IIRC SW ion drive isn't exactly consistent with RL ion drives either - Real life ion engine thrust is TINY compared to the lethal thrusts SW ships generate. Why would the same not be true for fusion thrusters? Star Wars fighters can operate on fusion. Hell, some Y-wings operate on fission drives

)

Looking at it now. Office has been secured lately while we were out. Tomorrow when I'm off duty I'll type up and send you the quote.

Judging by the skimming I did of some of the hyperspacec stuff they seem to subscribe to either the "inter-dimensinonal" type of hyperdrive or the "wormhole" type Hyperdrive (Unless they're both the same thing, ,as Gree hypergates suggest.)

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2005-08-16 04:04pm

Well it is certain that Gree hypergates and whatever they are describing is not the same as good old vanilla hyperspace.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2005-08-16 05:50pm

What's the deal with the apparent disappearance of the Emprie of the Hand? Was that covered in any books?

President Sharky · Post by **President Sharky** » 2005-08-16 06:12pm

I think it was completely destroyed.

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2005-08-16 06:41pm

Axis Kast wrote:What's the deal with the apparent disappearance of the Emprie of the Hand? Was that covered in any books?

Baron Fel''s presence on Csillia in Force Heretic II: Refugee hinted that something may have happened to the EoTH, but this is the first concrete proof the EU readers have received.

Guardsman Bass · Post by **Guardsman Bass** » 2005-08-17 07:08pm

I'll re-post what I should have originally posted in this thread.

I enjoyed the unusual nature of the "enemy;" basically, a kind of insect hive mind that exists in the shadow of the Raynar Thul Hive Mind and was built around Lomi Plo and Welk, two badly wounded dark jedi.

That said, I heavily despised the Jedi order in this book, and particularly Jacen. Jacen seems very arrogant with his power and his "duty" to follow his conscience, to the point where he uses his pull with Tenel Ka to get her to send a fleet to defend Qoribu(the Hive Mind's planet) from the Chiss, which Chief of State Omas is furious about since it destabilizes relations between the Chiss and the Galactic Alliance. He also dismisses Omas's concern by simply saying, "I am a jedi. Trust that my reasons are sound," and openly says that they can't trust their power to any 'lesser beings,' and should be loyal to no one. That viewpoint is kind of scary in a Jedi ( as the Sith show, force-users can use their abilities to obtain serious political power), since it basically amounts to saying, "We're going to do what WE feel is right, using the powers YOU have no possible manner of contemplation of. Trust us. We're good."

It's almost Sith-like, but that is not surprising, since the New Order embraces both dark and light sides, and uses both (Mara hits some creatures with force lightning, Luke draws upon his anger to create an illusion and ends up looking kind of Palpatine-ish for a few minutes, and Luke even performs a force choke to try to kill Welk before his disgust causes him to release it.) It's almost as if they presume that since they think they are now 'above' distinctions of light and dark, they can use dark powers without being corrupted by the easy power it brings.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2005-08-17 10:06pm

I loathe that shit. It smacks of fanboyism. GL's Jedi and Luke Skywalker would never toss lightning, but teh UBER Jedi get to use both sides for TEH ULTIMATE POWER without suffering any of the consequences.

Fuck that shit.