Is religion a form of brain washing?

[sketerpot]

The way I see it, religion is really just there as a guideline and something to put faith and hope in. People these days tend to take it too seriously, and that's where we start getting into trouble. It doesn't really matter which God, if any exists, or which one religion may be the right one, it only matters what the doctrines teach. By that, I mean what they teach in terms of morallity and plain human decency.

If the only thing that matters about religions is their moral teachings, then why bother with them at all? Religion and morality are entirely seperable. In fact, looking at morality in terms of evolutionary psychology, we can explain some off moral inconsistencies that are widespread across all of humanity. For example, when God allegedly said "Thou shalt not kill", He apparently meant "Thou shalt not kill thy fellow Israelites, except when commanded to do so by My representatives". This makes perfect sense if the rules about killing evolved and are largely instinctual, but it doesn't sit well with the idea of a loving God. As futher proof that religion and morality are seperable, look at atheists. We're not religious, but most of us are moral.

Am I missing something in your post? Because it looks like you're saying "it doesn't matter whether religions are right or wrong, just the codes of ethics they teach. And I believe in one of them." Which seems odd to me.

[Lord Woodlouse]

Religion in itself is not a form of brainwashing, anymore than ANY idea is. The manner in which it is explained to another makes it so or not. That applies to all ideas with some kind of idealogical leaning, including things like capitalism and communism. They're not brainwashing in itself, anymore than the simple act of barking like a dog is. But people can be brainwashed into these things.

[Tokaji Kyoden]

You are missing a small part. Religion is about belief. It brings happiness and hope to many. That is it's main purpose. What I meant by the morality part was that people tend to take religion too far. You should not take religion so much for it's literal meaning. Jesus being the son of God doesn't matter as much as what Jesus taught, in other words. It's the ideas behind religion that we need to pay attention to and follow, rather than saying, "Oh, the Bible doesn't say anything about allowing gays to marry, so they can't"

Now, as for the different religions, in my opinion, it doesn't matter which one you believe in. I may think mine is right, but you may think the same of yours, and thus, no right or wrong can ever be decided for it. However, it sees to me, that as long as you DO believe in your religion, and that you put faith in your God, then that is truth for you. Having faith in something is better than having faith in nothing, right? That's just my viewpoint.

[Junghalli]

Yes, being raised in a religion is a form of brainwashing. But so is all social conditioning. If you want people to be able to live in groups of more than a few dozen and not kill each other brainwashing in some form is neccessary, because civilization is simply unnatural behavior for humans.

As for the other questions, if we could answer them then we'd know everything, wouldn't we? Personally I think there is some form of God.

[Wicked Pilot]

If a religion wants to survive through the generations it will have tenants that support brainwashing in at least some way.

[Surlethe]

Raising children is brainwashing -- or, more specifically, it is actually closer to the indoctrination after brainwashing: the child is born with no preconceptions; thus, through constant exposure, parents indoctrinate children into religion; however, I would compare adult conversions more closely to brainwashing.

Since religion is almost always passed on in this manner, then, yes, religion is a form of brainwashing.

[sketerpot]

Now, as for the different religions, in my opinion, it doesn't matter which one you believe in. I may think mine is right, but you may think the same of yours, and thus, no right or wrong can ever be decided for it.

Wrong. We can't all be right, and some beliefs are more likely to be true than others. For example, the theory that the sun is pushed across the sky by a giant flying dung beetle was devoutly believed by many people a long time ago, but our observations contradicted these beliefs and led to the heliocentric theory. Therefore, a religion involving a god which set the cosmos in motion in orderly ways is more consistent with our observations than the religion which said a dung beetle moves the sun, and more likely to be correct.

However, it sees to me, that as long as you DO believe in your religion, and that you put faith in your God, then that is truth for you.

Truth is not subjective. This can be easily verified by running around with your eyes closed and believing that you won't run into anything---unless you don't really believe that truth is subjective, in which case you can't believe that you won't run into anything, and therefore will not be able to carry out the test. I think that you just apply the subjective truth explanation as an after-the-fact rationalization of your religious beliefs and your belief that other religions are okay too.

Having faith in something is better than having faith in nothing, right?

From personal experience, my answer is no. Do you think it's better to have faith in invisible pink unicorns than not to have faith in them? Why or why not?

That's just my viewpoint.

And my viewpoint contradicts it.

[The Guid]

To answer the origonal question. No. Religion is too broad a term. There are cultish elements to some. However to suggest all religion is brainwashing is false. People enter into religion freely and without the complicated techniques of brainwashing. This is not true in all cases but I think one really needs to appreciate that brainwashing is a complicated and deliberate process that can not be undertaken by religions at large.

[Tokaji Kyoden]

Wrong. We can't all be right, and some beliefs are more likely to be true than others.

Think about it like this: There is truly only one God, going under different names or ideas, but he is only one being. He created different religions so that people who think differently can have something to believe in. That is one reason that new religions appear every now and again.

For example, the theory that the sun is pushed across the sky by a giant flying dung beetle was devoutly believed by many people a long time ago, but our observations contradicted these beliefs and led to the heliocentric theory. Therefore, a religion involving a god which set the cosmos in motion in orderly ways is more consistent with our observations than the religion which said a dung beetle moves the sun, and more likely to be correct.

BUT, nothing concerning religion can truly be observed, so there really can't be any proof for one God over another, or anything of that sort. All we have are writings, such as the Bible, which was written by man.

Truth is not subjective. This can be easily verified by running around with your eyes closed and believing that you won't run into anything

Agreed, however, again, there can be no proof in the matter of religion as there can be with running around with your eyes closed.

From personal experience, my answer is no. Do you think it's better to have faith in invisible pink unicorns than not to have faith in them? Why or why not?

Yes, I do think so. Better to believe in something that can bring you happiness and peace and hope, than to sit there wallowing in your own sorrow, etc. This can, however, be contradicted with the fact that the person just might be crazy, but I'm working in the realm of normal people here.

[Surlethe]

Think about it like this: There is truly only one God, going under different names or ideas, but he is only one being. He created different religions so that people who think differently can have something to believe in. That is one reason that new religions appear every now and again.

Unless, of course, there are two or more gods...

... nothing concerning religion can truly be observed, so there really can't be any proof for one God over another, or anything of that sort. All we have are writings, such as the Bible, which was written by man.

All of which demonstrates what? That God gets snipped by parsimony, of course.

Truth is not subjective. This can be easily verified by running around with your eyes closed and believing that you won't run into anything

Agreed, however, again, there can be no proof in the matter of religion as there can be with running around with your eyes closed.

Since the matter of religion concerns truth, you're contradicting yourself.

Yes, I do think so. Better to believe in something that can bring you happiness and peace and hope, than to sit there wallowing in your own sorrow, etc. This can, however, be contradicted with the fact that the person just might be crazy, but I'm working in the realm of normal people here.

Of course, atheists sit there and wallow in their own sorrow, etc.

[Zero]

Some atheists do. Atheism can be tricky to deal with if your entire life up to that point, your entire notion of self, had been dominated by religion. Or so I've observed...

[Perinquus]

Yes, I do think so. Better to believe in something that can bring you happiness and peace and hope, than to sit there wallowing in your own sorrow, etc. This can, however, be contradicted with the fact that the person just might be crazy, but I'm working in the realm of normal people here.

Oh brother. Here it is, yet again. Of course, atheists just couldn't genuinely lead happy, fulfilled, productive lives, and enjoy them. Oh no. We lack belief in God, therefore we must be unhappy, unfulfilled, wallowing in sorrow, etc.

It's amazing how many theists simply won't accept the idea that it really is possible to be happy without belief in a god. They refuse to accept the idea that atheists do not necessarily become atheists become atheists because they hate God, or have suffered some tragedy that makes them blame God, or because they just want to live a life unencumbered by the restrictions religion places on their moral behavior. They simply won't consider that atheists might have found genuine, logical, supportable reasons for not believing in any sort of god, and not only can be, but are, perfectly content with that state of things.

[Tokaji Kyoden]

Oh no. We lack belief in God, therefore we must be unhappy, unfulfilled, wallowing in sorrow, etc.

Did I say that it had to be a belief in a god or higher power? No. All I said was that it is better to believe in something. It can be yourself. That is just as powerful for a lot of people. Unfortunately, not enough people can do that these days. They have no faith in themselves, so they turn to religion for support.

They simply won't consider that atheists might have found genuine, logical, supportable reasons for not believing in any sort of god, and not only can be, but are, perfectly content with that state of things.

I hope you're not including me in that, because I don't think like that. I was brought up an athiest, and I found religion in my late teens.

Unless, of course, there are two or more gods...

Which is completely possible, I won't try to say there aren't. I was just giving my personal view on things.

All of which demonstrates what? That God gets snipped by parsimony, of course.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here, Surlethe, could you please expand a little on the idea?

[Surlethe]

Unless, of course, there are two or more gods...

Which is completely possible, I won't try to say there aren't. I was just giving my personal view on things.

However, saying "x gods exist" and "y gods exist" are two contradictory statements. Thus, though no right or wrong can ever be decided, in the end, one of those viewpoints is correct, and one is incorrect.

All of which demonstrates what? That God gets snipped by parsimony, of course.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here, Surlethe, could you please expand a little on the idea?

You're elaborating on religion being about belief, happiness, and hope. However, in doing so, you implied atheism lacks those qualities; when sketerpot responded by pointing out truth is objective, you replied by stating truth cannot be determined about beliefs.

Thus, the logical conclusion regarding religion is that God does not exist, because no information regarding God can possibly be acquired; this is the conclusion atheists reach. It's an application of Occam's Razor.

[Tokaji Kyoden]

Thus, the logical conclusion regarding religion is that God does not exist, because no information regarding God can possibly be acquired; this is the conclusion atheists reach. It's an application of Occam's Razor.

Agreed, and that is where faith comes in. Religion is purely based upon faith, for there is no evidence, and that is why it so hard to try to discuss. I will never try to discuss it from a scientific point of view, that'd just be stupid. However, faith and belief are very strong things. I'm not claiming(like some I've argued with) that faith or belief is truth, however. Faith can become truth for one person, and their own beliefs, but that is usually only in the absence of proof. Thus why, again, like some I've argued with, no one(in their right mind) will ever jump off the empire state building believing they can fly. There is proof that you can't.

[The Guid]

Yes, I do think so. Better to believe in something that can bring you happiness and peace and hope, than to sit there wallowing in your own sorrow, etc. This can, however, be contradicted with the fact that the person just might be crazy, but I'm working in the realm of normal people here.

Oh brother. Here it is, yet again. Of course, atheists just couldn't genuinely lead happy, fulfilled, productive lives, and enjoy them. Oh no. We lack belief in God, therefore we must be unhappy, unfulfilled, wallowing in sorrow, etc.

It's amazing how many theists simply won't accept the idea that it really is possible to be happy without belief in a god. They refuse to accept the idea that atheists do not necessarily become atheists become atheists because they hate God, or have suffered some tragedy that makes them blame God, or because they just want to live a life unencumbered by the restrictions religion places on their moral behavior. They simply won't consider that atheists might have found genuine, logical, supportable reasons for not believing in any sort of god, and not only can be, but are, perfectly content with that state of things.

For a truly religous person this is merely because religion plays such a central role in their life. Its not an abstract belief, but a close companion and friend who one could not imagine being without. Its like not believing the kids who grew up without mothers were happy - I know some are but its hard to concieve because my mother is so important to me.
Its not just blind ignorance or an unwillingness to understand, but in some ways an inability.

[Perinquus]

Yes, I do think so. Better to believe in something that can bring you happiness and peace and hope, than to sit there wallowing in your own sorrow, etc. This can, however, be contradicted with the fact that the person just might be crazy, but I'm working in the realm of normal people here.

Oh brother. Here it is, yet again. Of course, atheists just couldn't genuinely lead happy, fulfilled, productive lives, and enjoy them. Oh no. We lack belief in God, therefore we must be unhappy, unfulfilled, wallowing in sorrow, etc.

It's amazing how many theists simply won't accept the idea that it really is possible to be happy without belief in a god. They refuse to accept the idea that atheists do not necessarily become atheists become atheists because they hate God, or have suffered some tragedy that makes them blame God, or because they just want to live a life unencumbered by the restrictions religion places on their moral behavior. They simply won't consider that atheists might have found genuine, logical, supportable reasons for not believing in any sort of god, and not only can be, but are, perfectly content with that state of things.

For a truly religous person this is merely because religion plays such a central role in their life. Its not an abstract belief, but a close companion and friend who one could not imagine being without. Its like not believing the kids who grew up without mothers were happy - I know some are but its hard to concieve because my mother is so important to me.
Its not just blind ignorance or an unwillingness to understand, but in some ways an inability.

But they will not recognize it as such, and so it does look like willful blindness. I admit, it varies. I have debated with Christians who do seem to undertand why I am an atheist when I explain it to them. And I have also argued with ones who simply will not allow that I am honest about my reasons for disbelieving. I am lying to myself. I hate god. I took the easy way out. I'm just looking for an excuse to live without the moral constraints imposed by God. Etc. etc..

[FedRebel]

Is religion a big con or dose it hold some truth.

Depends on which religion you're refering to.

And if it dose which one is true, the Jesus story, Buda or a pagen mith.

Unknown

If gods do or did exist wouldnt the first gods be the true gods, Like in pagen Britain when thay worshiped gods and godess like Britaina and Adrasta.

Unknown, chances are equally likelly that there are no higher beings at all

Or is it all stories that people took to seriously?

Possible




Religion is a creation of man to show gratitude to a higher being or beings we credit for our existence and the creation of the universe. Whether or not said higher being(s) took an active roll in the creation of any one religion is unknown, likewise their existence is unknown to us. Whether or not a higher being or beings exist is a decision we must make for ourselves as individuals, as well as our choice on how to pay homage to said being(s).

[mr friendly guy]

Any idea being taught in society can be construed as "brainwashing". However the difference between how religion is taught as opposed to say science, is that religion as a general rule do not encourage thinking (in terms of questioning itself - Catholicism is an exemption IIRC).

In this sense, religion is more likely to be successful in indoctrinating people compared to other ideas.

[darthdavid]

For me, religion is some sort of escapism for people we can't accept the fact there may not be life after death

Ding Ding Ding Ding. That's what I believe.

[sketerpot]

All of which demonstrates what? That God gets snipped by parsimony, of course.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here, Surlethe, could you please expand a little on the idea?

There are two essays you might want to check out.

The first one is an explanation of Occam's Razor, which is what you're looking for if you want a quick explanation of parsimony.

The second essay describes what science is and why it's practical. It doesn't weigh in on parsimony much, but it's a good explanation of how one might go about understanding the world without a religious bias. This one is optional, but please read the first essay even if you don't so much as glance at this one.

----

I'd also like to note that, in ensuring that your god is completely unfalsifiable, you have also drastically curtailed his possible influence on the world. He doesn't answer prayers in a statistically measurable way, he doesn't perform miracles that aren't balanced out by a similar number of unlikely tragedies, his influence on the developement of life is indistinguishable from blind evolution, and in all other respects he acts like he's hiding from us. If your god does not operate with all of these restrictions (and any others I may think of), he is testable, and we can determine some facts about his nature.

[Surlethe]

Agreed, and that is where faith comes in. Religion is purely based upon faith, for there is no evidence, and that is why it so hard to try to discuss. I will never try to discuss it from a scientific point of view, that'd just be stupid. However, faith and belief are very strong things. I'm not claiming(like some I've argued with) that faith or belief is truth, however. Faith can become truth for one person, and their own beliefs, but that is usually only in the absence of proof. Thus why, again, like some I've argued with, no one(in their right mind) will ever jump off the empire state building believing they can fly. There is proof that you can't.

Faith can't become truth; faith is, by definition, purely subjective, whereas truth is objective. In general, belief in religion is a huge argument from ignorance: you can't prove God doesn't exist. Thus, while religion can claim belief, it can't claim truth.