Curing Asperger's Syndrome.

[Dakarne]

There's a really big difference to someone with Asperger's Syndrome and a Psychopath... a very bloody big difference.

Since it is very clear that you have shown, repeatedly, that you have little clue what Asperger's Syndrome actually is, I'm going to stop debating until you get a clue.

[SirNitram]

Hell no. Without Asperger's, I wouldn't have a convenient excuse to be antisocial.

Antisocial tendencies are usually frowned upon, I've no Idea why...

Probably because antisocial behavior is not conducive to a functional society.

How is it, Firefox, that an individual who suffers social anxiety is somehow damaging society? Perhaps you could explain how you came to pull this bullshit from your ass.

if someone wants to keep to themselves and continue having a Neural Disorder, let them!

Unless they're either a disruption or a harm to those immediately around them, in which case they probably should seek treatment. I fail to see how this disproves that Asperger Syndrome is a mental disorder.

You're an outright retard if you think Asperger's drives people to violence. Seriously. Go get yourself a clue.

As for it being a mental disorder, it is a mental disorder with tangible, objective benefits. But I suppose that flies over your head.

[Dakarne]

Well said Nitram! (applauds)

Someone finally sticks up for us.

Bloody Idiot, he doesn't even know what Asperger's is probably.

[genkkov]

"Reading all these descriptions, I think I have Asperger's"

This is called medical student syndrome. Lots of people have traits that are consistent with asperger syndrome, schizophrenia, depression ADHD, and any other psychiatric disorder that you can name. All of these symptoms are also found in normal people, the thing is that in the DSM IV (the bible of psychiatrists) almost all entries are qualified by saying that these symptoms must cause "significant distress or morbidity". Don't lose sight of the forest for the trees. If you're generally ok, you're probably ok.

[Dakarne]

I'm Generally Okay... I manage through everyday life

(I live with my mother, but I'm not legally allowed to move out yet.)

[Tiger Ace]

"Reading all these descriptions, I think I have Asperger's"

This is called medical student syndrome. Lots of people have traits that are consistent with asperger syndrome, schizophrenia, depression ADHD, and any other psychiatric disorder that you can name. All of these symptoms are also found in normal people, the thing is that in the DSM IV (the bible of psychiatrists) almost all entries are qualified by saying that these symptoms must cause "significant distress or morbidity". Don't lose sight of the forest for the trees. If you're generally ok, you're probably ok.

Good, then I'll continue only being diagnosed ADHD.

I have to wonder though, what percentage of people afflicted with such problems such as ADHD, Asperger's etc. slip through without a diagnose?

[genkkov]

How many people slip through without being diagnosed? That's kind of a hard question to answer, as of course there are no statistics taken on people not diagnosed. I would think that not too many get through, schools are generally pretty good at picking up things like that, and they'll notice that something's not quite right. ADHD is a different matter, and I think that schools sometimes do too good a job at picking up people with ADHD, i.e. too many false positives. That being said, I do think that I remember reading that our current screening tools are fairly sensitive. I could try to look up some hard data for you, can get back to everyone tomorrow on this question.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

I went all the way up to halfway through my junior year of high school without being 'detected,' at which point I was finally diagnosed with depression and misdiagnosed with schizoid personality disorder before being (correctly, I would hope, we'll see in a few days when I get the results for the most recent evaluation) diagnosed with AS six months later.

But then, Asperger's often yields excellent actors.

[Duckie]

So basically we can condense the thread into four posts:

You: "Should we cure Aspergers if we could?"
Somebody: "No. Here's Why."
Somebody Else: "Yes. Here's Why."
You: "Fuck you, I have Aspergers and I don't want to change. You're making me out to be different and lesser from people without Aspergers! (By the way, we're not functionally different in any way, but we are smarter.)"

Amazingly, nobody is saying you're an invalid. Nobody is saying we're going to strap you to a chair and force feed you or anybody else anti-Aspergers medicines. Find me a quote of those and I'll eat my words and make a full apology. We are saying you're wrong, because that's why it's an argument and not backpatting yourself and everybody else on an agreement.

[FireNexus]

Just as far as the "antisocial" thing. People with social anxiety aren't antisocial. Antisocial people are unable to function in society. It's essentially the same as saying "sociopath".

So, Billy, who can't talk to mary, is not antisocial. But Tommy, who kills mary for no good reason, then feels no remorse for the action, is antisocial.

Have a nice day.

[SirNitram]

So basically we can condense the thread into four posts:

No. Just Darkane and Firefox's posts.

Asperger's is a difficult call because it's not simply a negative. There are real, legitimate upsides. On the other hand, as someone who is currently attempting to get a real job in society while having a rather severe case of it, it's very hard to leap on the oh-so-idealistic 'I'd never change!!!' boat.

[Stark]

Nitram hit it on the head: if you're living your comfortable, regular life, it's no problem (and you're smarter than everyone else). However, it can come out of nowhere and bite you on the ass when it's least convienient. That might not be a big deal in highschool, or when you live with your parents, but when you're trying to start a career you can't afford that sort of thing.

[Surlethe]

Nitram hit it on the head: if you're living your comfortable, regular life, it's no problem (and you're smarter than everyone else). However, it can come out of nowhere and bite you on the ass when it's least convienient. That might not be a big deal in highschool, or when you live with your parents, but when you're trying to start a career you can't afford that sort of thing.

Anecdotally, at least, I can say it is quite damaging in school. I had a classmate in middle school whom my friends and I mocked continually until the administration kicked him out (and not soon enough) for making bomb threats. He suffered from Asberger's Syndrome, and, reflecting on middle school, I'm sure he suffered from our mockery far more than we suffered from his continual unwelcome intrusions on our clique.

Furthermore, Asberger's Syndrome tends to be disruptive in the classroom; this classmate would often go off on a tangent, and at times (IIRC) threatened the teacher, then would pull the teary "I'm sorry" and play Asberger's as a get-out-of-jail-free card. The student was also quite spoiled; I'm not sure just how much that played in to his behavior, and how much of his behavior was actually caused by Asberger's.

N.B.: If that sort of behavior is not typical of Asberger's Syndrome, then I'm quite willing to amend my opinion on the cure.

Side question: does this new cure (RAR!) mean we can also cure autism?

[SirNitram]

N.B.: If that sort of behavior is not typical of Asberger's Syndrome, then I'm quite willing to amend my opinion on the cure.

Asperger's makes little-to-no affect on aggression levels. However, if he was spoilt and was allowed to play Asperger's as an excuse, that could easily lead to the situation described, if there was even mild cases of other problems.

Mind you, I have no sympathy for assholes who constantly haze eccentric students and then they find one who, oops, has aggression issues and flips out, severely injuring one in an adrenaline-fueled rage(An example I saw). Humans are not built to take that kind of abuse on a daily, sometimes hourly, basis, and those that take part are no fucking better than animals.

[Surlethe]

N.B.: If that sort of behavior is not typical of Asberger's Syndrome, then I'm quite willing to amend my opinion on the cure.

Asperger's makes little-to-no affect on aggression levels. However, if he was spoilt and was allowed to play Asperger's as an excuse, that could easily lead to the situation described, if there was even mild cases of other problems.

Okay; thanks for the information. *opinion changes a bit*

Mind you, I have no sympathy for assholes who constantly haze eccentric students and then they find one who, oops, has aggression issues and flips out, severely injuring one in an adrenaline-fueled rage(An example I saw). Humans are not built to take that kind of abuse on a daily, sometimes hourly, basis, and those that take part are no fucking better than animals.

I agree; my behavior in the past was certainly not up to civilized standards. I've reflected quite a bit on it, and I most certainly was in the wrong.

[SirNitram]

N.B.: If that sort of behavior is not typical of Asberger's Syndrome, then I'm quite willing to amend my opinion on the cure.

Asperger's makes little-to-no affect on aggression levels. However, if he was spoilt and was allowed to play Asperger's as an excuse, that could easily lead to the situation described, if there was even mild cases of other problems.

Okay; thanks for the information. *opinion changes a bit*

The problem is thus:

An eccentric is different, and people automatically hate the different. Therefore an asperger's student will be forced out of the cliques as they form early on. This, bluntly, leads to a whole host of problems present in all of the outcasts. None of them strictly neural(I distinguished between neural and mental disorders, I should note. One is from actual damage or miswiring of the hardware, whereas the latter can/is formed socially from back feedback loops), but lots of problems can form.

We throw this in with the established problems of Asperger's: Obsession, social anxiety, and high intelligence. If the attention fixates on his tormentors, if he never finds a clique who'll accept him, that intelligence can get turned in the wrong directions.

I should note I have vast contempt for those who use AS or any syndrome as an excuse if they're functional. As I've said in previous threads... If you're too weak to stand up, sit back down and shut the fuck up.

Mind you, I have no sympathy for assholes who constantly haze eccentric students and then they find one who, oops, has aggression issues and flips out, severely injuring one in an adrenaline-fueled rage(An example I saw). Humans are not built to take that kind of abuse on a daily, sometimes hourly, basis, and those that take part are no fucking better than animals.

I agree; my behavior in the past was certainly not up to civilized standards. I've reflected quite a bit on it, and I most certainly was in the wrong.

I'm glad you matured out of it. Really, adults would collapse under that sort of behavior if it was, say, in the workplace. But the rose-covered glasses always come into play, and beatings and hazing become 'harmless fun'. And thus nothing is done.

[Surlethe]

The problem is thus:

An eccentric is different, and people automatically hate the different. Therefore an asperger's student will be forced out of the cliques as they form early on. This, bluntly, leads to a whole host of problems present in all of the outcasts. None of them strictly neural(I distinguished between neural and mental disorders, I should note. One is from actual damage or miswiring of the hardware, whereas the latter can/is formed socially from back feedback loops), but lots of problems can form.

How is a social feedback loop defined?

We throw this in with the established problems of Asperger's: Obsession, social anxiety, and high intelligence. If the attention fixates on his tormentors, if he never finds a clique who'll accept him, that intelligence can get turned in the wrong directions.

That really makes sense. The main problem we -- my clique -- had with this person was he was simultaneously obsessive and abusive, if that makes sense; but that would be coming out of his spoilt upbringing rather than his Asberger's. The obsession with animals and biology compounded our dislike, but that's the fundamental human problem middle schoolers seem especially to have problems with: dealing with differences.

I should note I have vast contempt for those who use AS or any syndrome as an excuse if they're functional. As I've said in previous threads... If you're too weak to stand up, sit back down and shut the fuck up.

I look at the way he used his AS -- as an excuse for his spoiled behavior -- as the foundation of my belief that, at a very fundamental level, people control their own behavior, and my contempt and dislike for people who refuse to take responsibility for their behavior.

I'm glad you matured out of it. Really, adults would collapse under that sort of behavior if it was, say, in the workplace. But the rose-covered glasses always come into play, and beatings and hazing become 'harmless fun'. And thus nothing is done.

I've noticed there isn't really much difference between adults and children aside from the way priorities are set and decisions made.

[SirNitram]

The problem is thus:

An eccentric is different, and people automatically hate the different. Therefore an asperger's student will be forced out of the cliques as they form early on. This, bluntly, leads to a whole host of problems present in all of the outcasts. None of them strictly neural(I distinguished between neural and mental disorders, I should note. One is from actual damage or miswiring of the hardware, whereas the latter can/is formed socially from back feedback loops), but lots of problems can form.

How is a social feedback loop defined?

Any interaction is essentially a 'feedback loop'. I say something to you, you say something back. It's essentially a fancy way of saying 'This happens, there's this reaction, which prompts a new action..' and so on. Dating can be described as a feedback loop you hope will increase a girl's interest in you with each iteration.

We throw this in with the established problems of Asperger's: Obsession, social anxiety, and high intelligence. If the attention fixates on his tormentors, if he never finds a clique who'll accept him, that intelligence can get turned in the wrong directions.

That really makes sense. The main problem we -- my clique -- had with this person was he was simultaneously obsessive and abusive, if that makes sense; but that would be coming out of his spoilt upbringing rather than his Asberger's. The obsession with animals and biology compounded our dislike, but that's the fundamental human problem middle schoolers seem especially to have problems with: dealing with differences.

Ah, middle school. Let's never talk about it again.

More seriously, you hit it on the head. There are simply abusive personality types, and they often spring up from spoilt upbringings. Now, I will say that an abusive person with Asperger's brings their own brand of nastiness to the table, but I'd rather face such than a sociopath in the same situation.

I should note I have vast contempt for those who use AS or any syndrome as an excuse if they're functional. As I've said in previous threads... If you're too weak to stand up, sit back down and shut the fuck up.

I look at the way he used his AS -- as an excuse for his spoiled behavior -- as the foundation of my belief that, at a very fundamental level, people control their own behavior, and my contempt and dislike for people who refuse to take responsibility for their behavior.

Well, here's the rub. I can take part in events with thousands of people. I can hold conversations with total strangers. I can concentrate on my work, etc. But every one of these is an act of incredible willpower.

Today is an example; as a result of obsessing over this thread(And my own Asperger's, an issue I literally forget about for months at a time, though it's still there), I wasn't able to force myself along as well as normal. As a result, I nearly had a nervous breakdown. Over what? Calling 115 phone numbers, five of which were 15 minute surveys of health.

We can control it. But don't think for a second it's easy. I just want to make sure it's understood it's not an easy feat. Now, my AS is pretty extreme, borderline true Autism, if my father's descriptions are accurate(I was eight at the time, though, so he may have simplified or I may have normalized). But it's rough.

I'm glad you matured out of it. Really, adults would collapse under that sort of behavior if it was, say, in the workplace. But the rose-covered glasses always come into play, and beatings and hazing become 'harmless fun'. And thus nothing is done.

I've noticed there isn't really much difference between adults and children aside from the way priorities are set and decisions made.

Eh, I don't see as many beatings in workplaces as in schools. But.

[Surlethe]

How is a social feedback loop defined?

Any interaction is essentially a 'feedback loop'. I say something to you, you say something back. It's essentially a fancy way of saying 'This happens, there's this reaction, which prompts a new action..' and so on. Dating can be described as a feedback loop you hope will increase a girl's interest in you with each iteration.

Ah, I see. So a mental disorder is essentially formed when relationships go badly, whereas a neural disorder is a result of actual messed up neural pathways.

That really makes sense. The main problem we -- my clique -- had with this person was he was simultaneously obsessive and abusive, if that makes sense; but that would be coming out of his spoilt upbringing rather than his Asberger's. The obsession with animals and biology compounded our dislike, but that's the fundamental human problem middle schoolers seem especially to have problems with: dealing with differences.

Ah, middle school. Let's never talk about it again.

More seriously, you hit it on the head. There are simply abusive personality types, and they often spring up from spoilt upbringings. Now, I will say that an abusive person with Asperger's brings their own brand of nastiness to the table, but I'd rather face such than a sociopath in the same situation.

I agree; at least an Asberger's person will understand the conflict, if what I understand is correct, and can be brought to sympathize or empathize with the victims, right?

I look at the way he used his AS -- as an excuse for his spoiled behavior -- as the foundation of my belief that, at a very fundamental level, people control their own behavior, and my contempt and dislike for people who refuse to take responsibility for their behavior.

Well, here's the rub. I can take part in events with thousands of people. I can hold conversations with total strangers. I can concentrate on my work, etc. But every one of these is an act of incredible willpower.

I really respect you for being able to do that. IIRC, in the Spanky ban thread, you mentioned "getting out of the basement was the hardest thing I'd ever done"; this brings new meaning to your statement.

Today is an example; as a result of obsessing over this thread(And my own Asperger's, an issue I literally forget about for months at a time, though it's still there), I wasn't able to force myself along as well as normal. As a result, I nearly had a nervous breakdown. Over what? Calling 115 phone numbers, five of which were 15 minute surveys of health.

I'm sorry! I can break off this discussion, if you'd like.

We can control it. But don't think for a second it's easy. I just want to make sure it's understood it's not an easy feat. Now, my AS is pretty extreme, borderline true Autism, if my father's descriptions are accurate(I was eight at the time, though, so he may have simplified or I may have normalized). But it's rough.

I understand. Wow.

I've noticed there isn't really much difference between adults and children aside from the way priorities are set and decisions made.

Eh, I don't see as many beatings in workplaces as in schools. But.

I was referring more to the reactions: an adult will emotionally react the same way as a child, from what I've seen, to an insult or a joke, but will have different priorities regarding the way he expresses that reaction.

[SirNitram]

How is a social feedback loop defined?

Any interaction is essentially a 'feedback loop'. I say something to you, you say something back. It's essentially a fancy way of saying 'This happens, there's this reaction, which prompts a new action..' and so on. Dating can be described as a feedback loop you hope will increase a girl's interest in you with each iteration.

Ah, I see. So a mental disorder is essentially formed when relationships go badly, whereas a neural disorder is a result of actual messed up neural pathways.

That's my understanding, yes. Think about it: we talk about sociopaths not having enough hugs as children. Sounds stupid and touchy feely at first, but examine it from the feedback idea: If you have no indications of how to care and respect another person when your personality forms..

That really makes sense. The main problem we -- my clique -- had with this person was he was simultaneously obsessive and abusive, if that makes sense; but that would be coming out of his spoilt upbringing rather than his Asberger's. The obsession with animals and biology compounded our dislike, but that's the fundamental human problem middle schoolers seem especially to have problems with: dealing with differences.

Ah, middle school. Let's never talk about it again.

More seriously, you hit it on the head. There are simply abusive personality types, and they often spring up from spoilt upbringings. Now, I will say that an abusive person with Asperger's brings their own brand of nastiness to the table, but I'd rather face such than a sociopath in the same situation.

I agree; at least an Asberger's person will understand the conflict, if what I understand is correct, and can be brought to sympathize or empathize with the victims, right?

Right. They can also still learn Right vs. Wrong very well, and because of their intelligence, may be able to cling to it better.

I look at the way he used his AS -- as an excuse for his spoiled behavior -- as the foundation of my belief that, at a very fundamental level, people control their own behavior, and my contempt and dislike for people who refuse to take responsibility for their behavior.

Well, here's the rub. I can take part in events with thousands of people. I can hold conversations with total strangers. I can concentrate on my work, etc. But every one of these is an act of incredible willpower.

I really respect you for being able to do that. IIRC, in the Spanky ban thread, you mentioned "getting out of the basement was the hardest thing I'd ever done"; this brings new meaning to your statement.

I don't beleive I said that; I never lived in someone's basement. But I've done quite a few things that were shit-ass hard because of this, among them forcing myself to meet people, expand my horizons and get into cliques. Meeting my wife in the real world and the trials of that.. Well, those paid off wondefully. I would do it all again.

Today is an example; as a result of obsessing over this thread(And my own Asperger's, an issue I literally forget about for months at a time, though it's still there), I wasn't able to force myself along as well as normal. As a result, I nearly had a nervous breakdown. Over what? Calling 115 phone numbers, five of which were 15 minute surveys of health.

I'm sorry! I can break off this discussion, if you'd like.

No, no. Nothing that you did. I just over-analyzed; remember the obsession angle?

Frankly, if it educates people, I'll bear my small troubles.

We can control it. But don't think for a second it's easy. I just want to make sure it's understood it's not an easy feat. Now, my AS is pretty extreme, borderline true Autism, if my father's descriptions are accurate(I was eight at the time, though, so he may have simplified or I may have normalized). But it's rough.

I understand. Wow.

I've noticed there isn't really much difference between adults and children aside from the way priorities are set and decisions made.

Eh, I don't see as many beatings in workplaces as in schools. But.

I was referring more to the reactions: an adult will emotionally react the same way as a child, from what I've seen, to an insult or a joke, but will have different priorities regarding the way he expresses that reaction.

Right. Children are just small adults, in some ways. The priorities is what we try and instill to make them good adults.

[Firefox]

Asperger's is not an antisocial disorder, it merely causes social anxiety.

Thanks for the clarification.

Retard, what thread is this? About Asperger's. Use your brain.

Read the quote, asshole. It's referring to mental disorders in general. I never referred to Asperger's in particular in that manner.

Well, no. You've been being an asshat. You distort it into an antisocial disorder, and when caught, shriek that you weren't talking about AS in particular, when that's the topic of the thread.

And you apparently didn't understand what he was fucking saying to begin with:

if someone wants to keep to themselves and continue having a Neural Disorder, let them!

He was referring to neural disorders in general, not Asperger's in particular.

[SirNitram]

Asperger's is not an antisocial disorder, it merely causes social anxiety.

Thanks for the clarification.

Retard, what thread is this? About Asperger's. Use your brain.

Read the quote, asshole. It's referring to mental disorders in general. I never referred to Asperger's in particular in that manner.

Read what I fucking wrote, you inbred peice of donkey shit. What is the thread title about? WHat is the entire thread about? Funny, it's about AS. Maybe you should take your tangent elsewhere, because if you aren't referring to AS, it doesn't belong here. Goddamn you're a stupid retard.

Well, no. You've been being an asshat. You distort it into an antisocial disorder, and when caught, shriek that you weren't talking about AS in particular, when that's the topic of the thread.

And you apparently didn't understand what he was fucking saying to begin with:

if someone wants to keep to themselves and continue having a Neural Disorder, let them!

He was referring to neural disorders in general, not Asperger's in particular.

You just project all kinds of bullshit into a sentence, don't you? Wake up, fucktard. The thread is about AS. That would make his statement's context pretty clear to those of us capable of cognizant thought.

[SirNitram]

When this thread was good, it was excellent. Unfortunately, most of it is bad.

I have a solution for that.

Locking for split.

[SirNitram]

Darkane's assholian posts flushed. Also flushed: Firefox tangential asshattery("DUR, IT'S AN ASPERGER'S THREAD, I SHALL TALK ABOUT ALL NEURAL DISORDERS"), ongoing discussion of the importance of Asperger's in development of modern society.

Continue on, citizens.

[Surlethe]

Ah, I see. So a mental disorder is essentially formed when relationships go badly, whereas a neural disorder is a result of actual messed up neural pathways.

That's my understanding, yes. Think about it: we talk about sociopaths not having enough hugs as children. Sounds stupid and touchy feely at first, but examine it from the feedback idea: If you have no indications of how to care and respect another person when your personality forms.

If I understand you correctly, AS is neural in nature, and causes eccentric behavior. However, as people form social groups, AS individuals are shunned; this causes problems in the social feedback area, and compounds and distorts the eccentric behavior.

I agree; at least an Asberger's person will understand the conflict, if what I understand is correct, and can be brought to sympathize or empathize with the victims, right?

Right. They can also still learn Right vs. Wrong very well, and because of their intelligence, may be able to cling to it better.

But to learn that, they require social interaction, right? Or, because of the intelligence, will an AS person be better suited to grasp the concepts of right and wrong at an intangible, philosophical level, rather than learning through experience?

Right. Children are just small adults, in some ways. The priorities is what we try and instill to make them good adults.

So, the maturation process is essentially the instillation of priorities in decision-making?