"The vast rebel fleet hung poised in space, ready to strike. It was hundreds of light-years from the Death Star --- but in hyperspace, all time was a moment, and the deadliness of an attack was measured not in distance but in precision."
Which would seem to indicate that the fleet's jump from Sullust to Endor was near instantanious. The fleet would only have been as fast as the slowest ship there. And the fact that fighters had even been deployed prior to the jump to lightspeed tells me that we're looking at a very short trip.
Another example would be Luke's flight from Hoth to Degobah. VERY rapid. And when he hopped out of the X-Wing, he didn't look like he was too worried about his underware being full of shit..
Same when Luke piloted the same X-Wing from Degobah to Bespin. Another very quick trip. Especially considering Han and crew were only on Bespin for like 2 days. And Bespin and Degobah are quite a ways away from eachother.
If an X-Wing is anywhere near as fast in hyperspace as the Falcon is, then we're looking at, again, near instantanious travel. The Falcon made it from Tatooine to Alderaan in like 10 minutes flat...Just enough time for Han to walk back and say 'We lost 'em yo! We'll be to Alderaan at O-200 essay! Droids don't rip people's arms out of their sockets G! We're coming up on Alderaan!'..
Which would seem to indicate that the fleet's jump from Sullust to Endor was near instantanious. The fleet would only have been as fast as the slowest ship there. And the fact that fighters had even been deployed prior to the jump to lightspeed tells me that we're looking at a very short trip.
That's not necessarily true, the phrase could mean that the coordinantes of their arrival were more a concern than the time it would take to make the jump. Even though this does indicate a brief length for the jump, it does not mean it's instantaneous. If a jump of that length was actually instantaneous, than hyperspace "micrjumps" wouldn't exist, considering that they only last a few seconds to a few minutes, and yet they only carry a ship a few parsecs at most.
However, I've discovered a new Force Power for long range trips... Force Bowel Control!
Not as crazy as it sounds. In NJO there was talk about Jedi poilot going in to a trace like state so they could stay in there fighters for extended hyperdrive trips.
However, I've discovered a new Force Power for long range trips... Force Bowel Control!
Not as crazy as it sounds. In NJO there was talk about Jedi poilot going in to a trace like state so they could stay in there fighters for extended hyperdrive trips.
Also ICS Canon. EpII ICS states the Aethersprite only has 5 hours life support which is extended by using the hibernation trance.
I'd imagine that SW Tech would have a "Recycling" ability.
It does, but it can't recycle used atmosphere perpetually, at least not on smaller vessels. Considering how small the Ethersprite is, I'm not suprised.
Dakarne wrote:Of course, given the Hyperdrive speeds in some things, I wouldn't be surprised if it were more than enough to get to a Safe Haven
Typically, a ship light freighter size and up has enough recycling capacity to support a crew for pretty much as long as it would take to cross the galaxy even taking the longest route (the Millenium Falcon holds 2 months of life support capacity.) However, if overloaded with passengers or troops, atmospheric recyclers can be quickly overloaded. This happended early in the NJO when the MF was carrying a lot refugees from the Vong, but had to set down inside hostile territory because it could'nt maintain breathable oxygen levels long enough to escape fully (it only had a few hours worth.)
However, I've discovered a new Force Power for long range trips... Force Bowel Control!
Not as crazy as it sounds. In NJO there was talk about Jedi poilot going in to a trace like state so they could stay in there fighters for extended hyperdrive trips.
Actually, I remember Thrawn commenting about that in Heir to the Empire. He said that Jedi go into meditative trances on long trips to conserve oxygen, and supplies, as well as slow bodily functions.
They also said, in the X-Wing novels that a pilot was waiting on the moon for the duration of one mission, with only "a tube and bladder rig for a 'fresher" and although it was for several hours, we can't assume that he was unable to perform, as he has an alien physiology.
In fact, since the Alliance is made up of many non-human pilots, we can't even assume that they have bodily functions identical to ours. Maybe their equivilent to a "bowel" is located on their upper body, and can be easily contained when the need arises. True, there are many many humans in the fleet, but lets say the humans wait in the capital ships until the battle starts, while the non-human and I assume, more space-oriented creatures can escort the fleet to it's destination. Thay way, the starships can be present at the beginning of a battle, and the other starships can launch after the fleet has arrived.
1) The question about the turds and the bridge window - they would dump their momentum and equivlent mass-energy into the ship. Tachyonic and baryonic matter still interact you know. It would be like getting hit by a lump of antimatter.
2) This stuff really underlines my frustration with the current versus generation, something that is particularily obvious post AOTC ICS: You guys aren't much for analysis. I'm not singling anyone out here, this is a very blanket criticism (unfortunately). You guys look for factoids to repeat until they give up, rather then really countering their claims. It's like a reverse WoI, in that you don't adapt real well. Look, the basic thing they cling to is that the EU pretty much doesn't count. For your style to win, you need to beat that idea. But since it is pretty much semantics you end up arguing with them, its nearly impossible to do that. You can make it obvious to the onlookers you are right (which is what Wayne and others do in that situation), but you aren't going to beat them down, and on a board like that of SB they are gonna drown you in wailing and a dogpile of others.
You are letting them dictate the terms of the debate, not only in the acceptable evidence (which you can do and win), but in letting them drive the direction and limit your options. In that situation, long term, you will lose. Simple as that.
The key is to let them dictate the evidence standards (so they can't just dismiss the counter evidence and direct the debate to a what is acceptable bit). But then draw heavily upon the evidence and asshammer them, firmly showing how wrong they are.
Look, SW isn't stronger because the EU has more wanktastic authors. It's stronger because the movies simply show it as such. Has been since 1977 when Alderaan went boom. All the conclusions that have been made since then, by Dr Saxton, by Mike, by the EU authors, by the small timers like me, comes from that. Draw on it. Use it. It is not at all an understatement to say that every last bit of the EU actually weakens the ships compared to the movies. It's more complicated to do because it requires a much greater depth and expanse of knowledge, but it makes you much more effective. You don't even have to be that big on Star Trek at that point; once you establish strong conclusions based off the evidence, they can either try to tear it apart - which won't work because if they knew enough to analyze well and had a scientific mentality they would agree with your position, or they can try and inflate the Trek side - which won't work because your scientific knowledge and methodology will let your shred their work.
They want to argue for weak TLs? Look into the Hoth sequence. I can justify triple digit MT point defense guns, and triple digit GT guns from Return of the Jedi. I suspect even more from the ROTS novel.
They want to argue for slow acceleration? Look at the Endor Decantation sequence, the Imperial Enclosure, the Attack on the Death Star, on Tyrannus's flight.
Slow Hyperspace speed? Trip to Alderaan, trip to Endor, trip to Tatooine, trip to Mustafar.
Small galaxy? Gravitational collapse and magellenic clouds
Low power generation? conservation of energy and engine output.
Small ships? Scaling and mass ratios.
Weak shields? Thermodynamics and bare minimums.
It's not like you can wave it off that you can't figure it out, that someone needs to teach you - there are plenty of sites that will do it out there. Mike, the guys at Babtech, and Dr Saxton are all very through in outlining their methodology, look into that. Go past the numbers and look at how the numbers were generated. And almost everyone out there who does analysis will help, or fact check, or whatever. About once a month or so at some place on this board (PSW, PST, OSF, SLAM) a thread crops up asking for people to "check this work", or someone looking for formulas, or other help. And pay attention here to those bits. McC proved that starfighters fight at about Mach 6. Darth Psybod showed AT-AT guns were a minimum of 16 kilotons per bolt. HDS and I showed reactor scaling is accurate. Fritek proved a constant ship density. Howder showed the rotational acceleration of an ISD to be enough to make the thing a whirling dervish of destruction. Mad and IP proved the c speed TL beam theory. It all adds up, and you can use it.
You've got to out think them people. It's how you win. Not by screaming, that lets the more tenacious person win out, and hopefully you all have enough other things in your lives that you will always lose that contest. Out think them.
بيرني كان سيفوز
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Nuclear Navy Warwolf
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in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
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ipsa scientia potestas est
Ender wrote: and on a board like that of SB they are gonna drown you in wailing and a dogpile of others.
From spending time on SB, it's firmly in the "EU counts" camp, no question. Only a few isolated idiots maintain the Darkstar vigil, and no one cares about them.
They want to argue for weak TLs? Look into the Hoth sequence. I can justify triple digit MT point defense guns, and triple digit GT guns from Return of the Jedi. I suspect even more from the ROTS novel.
Gonna put that up on a website any time soon?
Slow Hyperspace speed? Trip to Alderaan, trip to Endor, trip to Tatooine, trip to Mustafar.
When arguing against people who insist the EU doesn't count, this isn't very useful. First thing they'll do is argue that we don't know the distances, so they're useless. In the case of Endor, depending on how fanatical they are, they'll make the bullshit argument that it took the fleet days to get there. Leaving aside Endor, you're invariably drawn into semantics arguments about the Star Wars galaxy being "modest sized" (which they will of course take to imply "modest compared to the Milky Way")- then references to the novelization of ANH saying that the Empire's 1,000,000 systems occupies a 'tiny portion' of the galaxy (which they will of course take to imply that it's some tiny bit of territorially distinct territory)- and voila- you're arguing subjective semantics. Joy.
Dakarne wrote:They're stubborn, almost as stubborn as I am.
Dakarne, such a post is a waste of time, and qualifies as a "me-too" post. Post something substantive that adds to the discussion, don't post one-liners.
But let's make a little consise essay on the most prominent members.
Captain Newland:
Owner of Strek-v-Swars.net, who I've debated against many times... basically bends the Canon rules away from Lucas' own rules and makes standard Pseudoscience Arguements, not as mentionable as the others however, if it weren't for the Canon Rules thing.
SailorSaturumon13:
Makes bullshit claims about SW from passing observations... is obsessed with 1KT Starfighter weaponry, adamant that SW weapons are significantly weaker.
DSG2k/Darkstar/RSA:
Okay... he posts rarely, and on the subject of canon he highlights miniscule bits of LucasFilm quotes without looking at the rest of the quote, which used in conjecture means something different.
There's more but I'm not in a very good position to comment.
Ender wrote: and on a board like that of SB they are gonna drown you in wailing and a dogpile of others.
From spending time on SB, it's firmly in the "EU counts" camp, no question. Only a few isolated idiots maintain the Darkstar vigil, and no one cares about them.
True, but the screaming dogpile strategy is extremely popular over there.
They want to argue for weak TLs? Look into the Hoth sequence. I can justify triple digit MT point defense guns, and triple digit GT guns from Return of the Jedi. I suspect even more from the ROTS novel.
Gonna put that up on a website any time soon?
That depends entirely on how soon Best Buy repairs my laptop. I spent a good chunk of the cruise working on a pure canon website and its all stored on an extremely fucked up laptop. I need to atleast get the spreadsheet and the text off there, better will be if I can get the whole thing fixed and get the asston of screenshots as well. Course I need to update any observations and conclusions with ROTS.
Slow Hyperspace speed? Trip to Alderaan, trip to Endor, trip to Tatooine, trip to Mustafar.
When arguing against people who insist the EU doesn't count, this isn't very useful. First thing they'll do is argue that we don't know the distances, so they're useless. In the case of Endor, depending on how fanatical they are, they'll make the bullshit argument that it took the fleet days to get there.
Right, I gave that some thought about an hour ago- figure out the running speed of the ewoks (can be done, all you need to know is the leg size and it can be calculated, paleontologists do it all the time. Plus those formulas would be usefull for figuring walker top speed). Then go by the time for the reinfocements to show up to get a distance from the ewok camp to the imperial base. Then compare this radius to the total area to the required size of a hunting grounds to supply them with adequate prey (easily figured by looking at the size of the territories needed by predators with similar caloric intakes or primitive tribes). THis can support or refute the argument that the traps were already there to catch food. If it supports it (and I believe it will), that totally eliminates their argument in favor of a long time. A lot of work, but not something they can counter.
Leaving aside Endor, you're invariably drawn into semantics arguments about the Star Wars galaxy being "modest sized" (which they will of course take to imply "modest compared to the Milky Way")-
There are minimum sizes a galaxy can be to have dwarf galaxies and to have the number of systems observed and not have them collapse in on each other due to gravity. Research it and hammer them on those points.
then references to the novelization of ANH saying that the Empire's 1,000,000 systems occupies a 'tiny portion' of the galaxy (which they will of course take to imply that it's some tiny bit of territorially distinct territory)- and voila- you're arguing subjective semantics. Joy.
If they claim that they are fucking lying. THe novel shows the Alderaan sector as being a tiny bit, but also descries as the million systems being all over the galaxy. Wayne has the relevent bits on his website, in the PDD section.
بيرني كان سيفوز
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Nuclear Navy Warwolf
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in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
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ipsa scientia potestas est
Ender wrote:If they claim that they are fucking lying. THe novel shows the Alderaan sector as being a tiny bit, but also descries as the million systems being all over the galaxy. Wayne has the relevent bits on his website, in the PDD section.
I honestly don't remember that. I have the ANH novelization of course. I can't find anything on the PDD.
