Concerning small form factor PCs

InnocentBystander · Post by **InnocentBystander** » 2005-08-01 11:09pm

I should say that I'm in the market for a new computer, but I should also say that I'm not ready to commit to anything just yet unless it's an unbelievable deal.
My criteria is simply that it needs to be easily relocated. Which leaves me with the option of a monster laptop or a small form pc. Now I'd love to get one of those big fancy $2500 sager laptops, but the cost is a little more than I'd like to spend, as such small form seems to be the best option.

Does anyone have any comments on these machines? Is heat a real problem, are they fragile, or perhaps impossible to fit into a backpack? etc.

After looking at the "usual" lineup of competitors, I found the following:
CASE : X-QPack Aluminum Mini 420Watt Case (Shipping Weight: 10 lbs;
Dimensions(DxWxH) 13.8" x 11.2" x 9") <- I think this is just the weight of the case itself
CPU : (939-pin) AMD ATHLON™64 3500+ CPU w/ Hyper Transport
MOTHERBOARD : (939pin Sckt)MSI RS480M2IL ATI Radeon Xpress200 Chipset SATA PCIE w/Video, LAN, USB2.0, IEEE-1394, &Audio
MEMORY : 1024 MB (512MBx2) PC3200 400MHz Dual Channel DDR (Corsair Value RAM)
HARD DRIVE : Hitachi 160GB 7200RPM Serial ATA 150 8MB Cache
VIDEO CARD : ATI RADEON X800XL 256MB 16X PCI EXPRESS VIDEO CARD
Optical Drive : LG GWA-4161 16X DVD±R/±RW + CD-R/RW DRIVE DUAL LAYER
SOUND : Creative Labs SB LIVE 24.bit 7.1
Price: $1015.00

Can anyone comment on this machine? Reviews of the hardware tells me that it seems to be a pretty solid motherboard, but may not work with linux (not a problem for me however, and that might just be for the onboard gfx card).

Additionally, I've found a few $200 17" LCD's that are around 7.5lbs, so all told I'd guess it to be about 20lbs (versus the super laptop which ends up being around 15 with the power cord). Does anyone have any experience lugging a package like this around? My current laptop load is likely closer to 15lbs, and doesn't require the gentle handling an LCD would require.
I think that also raises another question - how sturdy are LCDs? Will semi-frequent transportation drastically shorten its lifetime?

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2005-08-02 12:02am

The computer itself kicks ass. Not sure about the price one way or the other, but my SFF is real easy to haul around, even with a big and heavy CRT monitor.

InnocentBystander · Post by **InnocentBystander** » 2005-08-02 12:54am

Even with a heavy crt? I don't think I could make it to the train station with any of my CRTs.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2005-08-02 01:22pm

That's actually a pretty big SFF, and I've played with a lot of SFF boxes, and I've always been disapointed in every one of them except for the Shuttle SFFs.

I recommend you look into a Shuttle SN25P XPC before going with a different brand of SFF, the Shuttle systems are quieter, more reliable and easier to access then the competition.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2005-08-02 01:54pm

I prefer Shuttle's for my small form factor's. I'm typing from one at the moment and except for a blown power supply I've loved it.
(Hint 230 Watts PSU Minus a hundred watt video card, an eighty watt cpu, a thirty watt soundcard plus a few extra USB2 devices should not be hooked up at the same time)

Glocksman · Post by **Glocksman** » 2005-08-02 02:07pm

Mr Bean wrote:I prefer Shuttle's for my small form factor's. I'm typing from one at the moment and except for a blown power supply I've loved it.
(Hint 230 Watts PSU Minus a hundred watt video card, an eighty watt cpu, a thirty watt soundcard plus a few extra USB2 devices should not be hooked up at the same time)

That's the only reason I didn't go with a SFF setup when I built my last PC.
An anemic PSU can cause all kinds of problems if you load the system up beyond 'internet box' specs.

But if you do build one, I'd definitely go AMD over Intel because of the heat issues.
The Prescott cores are nicknamed 'Press-hot' for a damn good reason.

A decent laptop isn't as expensive as you'd think.
I paid $960 shipped for my Dell Inspiron 9300 spec'd as follows.

1.6 Ghz Pentium-M
512 MB DDR2 SDRAM
40 GB 16MB cache 7200 RPM Hard Drive
17 inch 1440x900 widescreen display
ATI X300 64MB video card
Sony CDRW/DVD ROM combo drive
Dell carrying case.

It's not the ultimate gaming machine, but it's fast enough.

InnocentBystander · Post by **InnocentBystander** » 2005-08-03 12:35am

Glocksman wrote: A decent laptop isn't as expensive as you'd think.
I paid $960 shipped for my Dell Inspiron 9300 spec'd as follows.

1.6 Ghz Pentium-M
512 MB DDR2 SDRAM
40 GB 16MB cache 7200 RPM Hard Drive
17 inch 1440x900 widescreen display
ATI X300 64MB video card
Sony CDRW/DVD ROM combo drive
Dell carrying case.

It's not the ultimate gaming machine, but it's fast enough.

The x300 wouldn't even be an upgrade for me. That is definatly not a laptop to be used for anything but "side" gaming (for instance, I don't believe one could play Battlefield 2 on it). I mulled over the idea of a laptop with an X700, but considering a desktop of similar price will be sporting an X800 XL or 6800 GT, it makes the laptop significantly less attractive.

Tiger Ace · Post by **Tiger Ace** » 2005-08-03 02:48am

Don't get an X700, that price range is dominated by the 6600GT.

darthdavid · Post by **darthdavid** » 2005-08-03 02:59am

Tiger Ace wrote:Don't get an X700, that price range is dominated by the 6600GT.

He just said that he wasn't man...

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-08-03 05:41pm

I've dabbled in SFF PCs before. My advice is: unless you have a very particular need for it, don't bother. It's much easier to get parts and boards for a regular form-factor PC. And after you spend some time carefully selecting components (and not always the ones you would have wanted) based solely on the fact that they will work in the small box, you start wondering why you had to have that box in the first place. The problem is particularly noticeable when you decide you want to upgrade something.

InnocentBystander · Post by **InnocentBystander** » 2005-08-03 06:21pm

Aside from avoiding ultra-modern video cards with coolers that take up an extra slot's worth in space, what do I need to be careful about?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-08-03 06:36pm

InnocentBystander wrote:Aside from avoiding ultra-modern video cards with coolers that take up an extra slot's worth in space, what do I need to be careful about?

Adding more hard drives, upgrading the motherboard, cooling, etc. Basically, if you don't plan on needing expandability or upgradability and you're happy with the PC exactly the way it is, you'll be happy with a SFF PC.

InnocentBystander · Post by **InnocentBystander** » 2005-08-03 07:25pm

Ahh, well I've always felt that if you are going to upgrade the MB, you might as well just get a whole new computer, after all, the bulk of the price goes into the MB, CPU and GPU anyway.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2005-08-03 07:44pm

Darth Wong wrote:
InnocentBystander wrote:Aside from avoiding ultra-modern video cards with coolers that take up an extra slot's worth in space, what do I need to be careful about?
Adding more hard drives, upgrading the motherboard, cooling, etc. Basically, if you don't plan on needing expandability or upgradability and you're happy with the PC exactly the way it is, you'll be happy with a SFF PC.

I'm planning on just getting an entirely new computer once the old one is obsolete. By the time I upgrade it, I probably won't be able to use much of the items in it. Usually useful to have more than one computer. Also can gift them to family members.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-08-03 07:44pm

InnocentBystander wrote:Ahh, well I've always felt that if you are going to upgrade the MB, you might as well just get a whole new computer, after all, the bulk of the price goes into the MB, CPU and GPU anyway.

True, but you don't necessarily want to upgrade everything at once. I've had plenty of machines where I swap out the MB but keep the same case, hard drives, sound card, and video card. Or where I just replace the video card.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2005-08-03 07:47pm

Darth Wong wrote:
InnocentBystander wrote:Ahh, well I've always felt that if you are going to upgrade the MB, you might as well just get a whole new computer, after all, the bulk of the price goes into the MB, CPU and GPU anyway.
True, but you don't necessarily want to upgrade everything at once. I've had plenty of machines where I swap out the MB but keep the same case, hard drives, sound card, and video card. Or where I just replace the video card.

Well you can always upgrade the video card in a SFF PC, and as for motherboard swaps, about the only thing you'd gain by using a standard PC is being able to reuse the case (which these days isn't all that likely anyway with the rising PS draws, new PS connection standards (revised ATX, BTX), etc.

For a PC that's going to be in use for three of four years without much in the way of upgrades, it's a pretty good solution, especially when desk space is at a premium.

InnocentBystander · Post by **InnocentBystander** » 2005-08-04 02:33am

I've spent a good deal of time poking around and have designed the following system, any comments on these prices?

Shuttle SN25P (nForce4, 939socket) - $360
3500+ Venice Retail- $223 (I think retail box includes heatsink, fan and thermal compound to attach them)
x800 XL PCI-e @ 256mb - $230
SATA 160GB @7200rpm - $60
2x Kingston 512mb (pc3200) - @ $25 per (after mail in rebate; Sadly Circuit city won't sell these online, store only)
DvD/CDRW (toshiba) ~ $30
Totaling ~ $950 (then an LCD and carrying case up the cost to about $1200)

I'm still not sure I want to buy this machine just yet, but with BF2 and all, it is very tempting.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2005-08-04 03:01am

Not bad, although if you can afford another $100, I'd recommend the Athlon 64 X2 3800+. It's a bit of a slower processor for games, but dual core is the way to go for any system that you have an intention of using for things other than games.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2005-08-04 10:42pm

InnocentBystander wrote:I've spent a good deal of time poking around and have designed the following system, any comments on these prices?

Shuttle SN25P (nForce4, 939socket) - $360
3500+ Venice Retail- $223 (I think retail box includes heatsink, fan and thermal compound to attach them)
x800 XL PCI-e @ 256mb - $230
SATA 160GB @7200rpm - $60
2x Kingston 512mb (pc3200) - @ $25 per (after mail in rebate; Sadly Circuit city won't sell these online, store only)
DvD/CDRW (toshiba) ~ $30
Totaling ~ $950 (then an LCD and carrying case up the cost to about $1200)

I'm still not sure I want to buy this machine just yet, but with BF2 and all, it is very tempting.

Hmm... Retail box processors include HSF and thermal compound, not that you need it. What's the specs on the RAM? CAS is important apparently. Low latency RAM helps out speed alot. Might want to think about getting a DVD+RW drive too.

InnocentBystander · Post by **InnocentBystander** » 2005-08-04 11:00pm

3, pretty good considering it's 25 bucks a stick, assuming I can find some at my local Circuit city. Fancy Corsair ram with a CAS 2 is more than twice the price.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2005-08-05 12:21am

Beowulf wrote:Hmm... Retail box processors include HSF and thermal compound, not that you need it. What's the specs on the RAM? CAS is important apparently. Low latency RAM helps out speed alot. Might want to think about getting a DVD+RW drive too.

The performance gain from having very low latency RAM is very minimal at stock speed, certainly nowhere near the price premium. It might be important if he was planning on overclocking, otherwise your basic name-brand "value RAM" is more than adequate.