Force Sub Winter 1941, Russian Front Tanks vs Mechs

[Dendrobius]

Secondary sources say that this tank is armed with a 175mm high velocity sabot cannon.

http://www.geocities.com/the_08mst_page ... kTank.html

Obviously, due to the fact that Gundam is a mecha series rather than anything else, you don't see enough of the Magella in action to determine whether this 175mm cannon is what its calibre suggests it to be.

[MKSheppard]

And the series STATES CATEGORICALLY, as well as demonstrates multiple times that Minovsky particles do block IR as well as radar waves.

http://www.gundamexpo.com/minovskyparticles.htm

"I-Fields:
One of the most important Minovsky Physics discoveries was of the Interlace Field or I-Field. When positively and negatively charged Minovsky particles were broadcast into open space they would spontaneously align themselves and interlace into a regular repeating pattern, named an I-Field. I-Fields effectively block low band electromagnetic radiation such as Radio Waves, Microwaves, and to a lesser extent infrared."

So they don't block IR that well, so STFU you fanboy wanker

[MKSheppard]

Secondary sources say that this tank is armed with a 175mm high velocity sabot cannon.

Obviously a low velocity round, since the damn turret can fucking
fly off on it's own power if the tank is disabled...

[Raxmei]

I'm not saying that this tank is anything uber, but what I am saying is that Mobile Suits have demonstrated that it can take tank fire.

As for calcs for the tank, I can't. There just isn't any evidence I can use from the series, you don't see tanks in action very often. I'm blindly assuming that a tank designed almost a hundred years into the future is at least equal to a present day tank, at least in terms of armament. Not more advanced, just equal.

Or are you going to tell me that the tanks in Gundam are made weak just to make the Mobile Suits look good?

Actually, it's possible that that was a light tank instead of a main battle tank. Light tanks have lighter armor and weapons but make up for it in mobility. Depending on the military doctrine of the time, their use might be justifiable.

[Dendrobius]

MKSheppard:

Ah, so we CAN use Google, good for you. First thing that pops up after you search for Minovsky Particles?

Any answer to our Gundam being able to take 175mm tank fire in the chest at <5m range without any damage?

Very well, Minovsky Particles don't block off IR completely. However, even you say that they do block IR to an extent. Enough to stuff up heat seeking missiles? The series indicates that it does as at the beginning of the One Year War the Federation's space fighters were unable to use their IR missiles effectively against attacking Zaku IIs.

[MKSheppard]

Initially early MS were powered by batteries, or some other from of stored energy, but the invention of the compact Minovsky Fusion Reactor revolutionized MS design and function. Suddenly a MS had all the power it needed to do tough jobs, and it wouldn't run out for a long time. It was also the invention of the Minovsky Reactor that created the military use for MS. The Zeon realized that in a radarless battlefield a Mobile Suit armed with melee weapons would be much more effective then a large cruiser, thus the Zaku was born.

Wow, compared to batteries, a 1,500 HP powerplant .............aw fuck it...

a radarless battlefield....stupid fuckers never even bothered to look up
WWI naval warfare or Tank combat from 1916 to 2002

[Vympel]

Secondary sources say that this tank is armed with a 175mm high velocity sabot cannon.

http://www.geocities.com/the_08mst_page ... kTank.html

Obviously, due to the fact that Gundam is a mecha series rather than anything else, you don't see enough of the Magella in action to determine whether this 175mm cannon is what its calibre suggests it to be.

This looks like made up nonsense to me.

"Extremely high speed"- No numbers! Define 'extremely high speed'?



- a rifled cannon firing a rocket assisted projectile? Wha?
- Hull down is not just driving into a hole. It's simply finding a position in the terrain where your turret shows but your hull doesn't. A hill can do this for a tank.

[Dendrobius]

Vympel:

With regards to the Magella, as I said, secondary evidence. I'm saying that given that this tank was designed hundreds of years into the future, and between now and then there was no loss of technology, it has to be at least as good as a T90.

[MKSheppard]

MKSheppard:
Any answer to our Gundam being able to take 175mm tank fire in the chest at <5m range without any damage?

A low velocity round to prevent the turret from flying off due
to a shittily designed turret ring.

Very well, Minovsky Particles don't block off IR completely. However, even you say that they do block IR to an extent. Enough to stuff up heat seeking missiles?

So you make it slightly harder for the russkie missiles to see the gundams,
by scattering IR.......whoah shit, we already HAVE IR countermeasures in
the 21st century...the Missiles will just counter for that.

[MKSheppard]

With regards to the Magella, as I said, secondary evidence. I'm saying that given that this tank was designed hundreds of years into the future, and between now and then there was no loss of technology, it has to be at least as good as a T90.

Then why does the UFP not have anything as good as a T-90?

[MKSheppard]

With regards to the Magella, as I said, secondary evidence. I'm saying that given that this tank was designed hundreds of years into the future, and between now and then there was no loss of technology, it has to be at least as good as a T90.

Then why does the UFP not have anything as good as a T-90?

[Vympel]

Vympel:

With regards to the Magella, as I said, secondary evidence. I'm saying that given that this tank was designed hundreds of years into the future, and between now and then there was no loss of technology, it has to be at least as good as a T90.

That does not follow. The very fact that a Gundam withstood this 175mm KE penetrator at close range shows that this KE penetrator was obviously low velocity.

You said:

We know that the Zaku's 120mm cannon can destroy Gundams, as seen in Ep2 of that OVA, when an entire MS Team equipped with Gundams went down for the count against Zaku opposition. Drawing from the above incident as well, the raw power of the 120mm cannon should be more than that of a MBT's cannon, as the 120mm can destroy a Gundam whereas the MBT's cannot.

Therefore, Gundam armor is pathetic. If that 120mm machine gun had anywhere near the capability of a modern tank main gun the mechas wouldn't be able to stay standing when they fire.

In other words, firing the 120mm cannon at the T90 would kill it. What's more, since the Zaku is SO MUCH HIGHER than the T90, as MKSheppard keeps reiterating, the 120mm would be firing at the top armour plates of the tank which are thinner and have no ERA

Wrong. The T-90 has ERA on its roof as well. Find a picture.

[Dendrobius]

That's a BIT harsh there, comparing Earth Federation as well as the Zeons with the dreaded Starfleet?!

The background story to Gundam does actually feature combined arms operations, tanks, infantry, air support and MS operating in concert. Given that it does not seem that this 'timeline' has lost any of its prowess at ground combat, is it really that much of an assumption to say that the tanks should be comparable?

[MKSheppard]

That's a BIT harsh there, comparing Earth Federation as well as the Zeons with the dreaded Starfleet?!

If they've forgotten how to design a real tank, yes.

[Dendrobius]

T90 has ERA on the roof? Whoops, sorry, my bad then.

Your logic is that the Gundam withstood the 175mm KE penetrator because it is low velocity. This is based entirely on the premise that Gundams have weak armor, which is the conclusion you're trying to reach. Isn't this circular logic?

Wouldn't me saying that the 175mm KE penetrator is powerful, and is not able to penetrate Gundam armour, therefore the Gundam's armour must be tough, be equally valid?

[MKSheppard]

Look at the tiny Turret Ring Connection.

It's stated that they have problems firing their guns in flight.....yet
the turrets don't fly off when the gun is fired in docked mode, hence
they must be low velocity rounds.



Note the much wider turret ring.

[Vympel]

That's a BIT harsh there, comparing Earth Federation as well as the Zeons with the dreaded Starfleet?!

The background story to Gundam does actually feature combined arms operations, tanks, infantry, air support and MS operating in concert. Given that it does not seem that this 'timeline' has lost any of its prowess at ground combat, is it really that much of an assumption to say that the tanks should be comparable?

As I said, you've already admitted that mechas can be killed by these pathetic, low velocity 120mm machine guns- which would really be nothing more than grenade launchers in terms of ballistics. That 175mm cannon must be truly pathetic then for a mecha to withstand it at close range. QED.

[MKSheppard]

As I said, you've already admitted that mechas can be killed by these pathetic, low velocity 120mm machine guns- which would really be nothing more than grenade launchers in terms of ballistics. That 175mm cannon must be truly pathetic then for a mecha to withstand it at close range. QED.

God, mecha fans are like cockroaches, crawling out of the woodwork,
over and over to only be slapped down brutally.

[Dendrobius]

MKSheppard:

With regards to the turret rings, you're making the mistake of using PRESENT technology to assess FUTURE developments.

You're saying the turret ring would be a bad design right not. I have no arguments about that. However, they do have more advanced materials than we do (Space colony construction tends to indicate that their overall technology level is more advanced than ours), which means that your point, is moot.

Vympel:

120mm machine guns have not been established to be low velocity, it is ONLY if you say that the Gundam's armor is thin, therefore anything that breaks it must be pathetic.

[MKSheppard]

MKSheppard:

With regards to the turret rings, you're making the mistake of using PRESENT technology to assess FUTURE developments.

You're saying the turret ring would be a bad design right not. I have no arguments about that. However, they do have more advanced materials than we do (Space colony construction tends to indicate that their overall technology level is more advanced than ours), which means that your point, is moot.

Quoth GundamExpo.com:

"Mobile Suit armor is usually made of some form of titanium, high tensile steel and ceramic material. Its main function to to absorb the energy from anything that is shot, thrown, stabbed, poked, or discharged at the MS and to keep it from damaging its innards. Armor was originally very think on mobile suits to guard them against nuclear attacks but once beam weapons were developed that could cut though anything heavy armor was suddenly obsolete. Heavy armor was thinned and removed from MS as designs progressed allowing them to be able to dodge beam weapons.
Frame

Originally armor played a structural role in MS constriction, but as MS evolved and armor became thinner the moveable frame was invented to take up the structural role. A MS with a moveable frame has all of its equipment and armor mounted to an inner skeletal structure allowing thin armor only where needed. This allows greater flexibility (how the ms was equipped), greater structural strength, and thinner armor."

Wow, it's steel, titanitium, and Ceramics! Exactly what a modern
day MBT has.......

STFU fanboy whore. you cannot change the laws of physics.

120mm machine guns have not been established to be low velocity, it is ONLY if you say that the Gundam's armor is thin, therefore anything that breaks it must be pathetic.

They have to be low velocity because a gundam is not knocked onto
it's ass by over 300 RPM of recoil from a 120mm cannon....

[Darth Wong]

Your logic is that the Gundam withstood the 175mm KE penetrator because it is low velocity. This is based entirely on the premise that Gundams have weak armor, which is the conclusion you're trying to reach. Isn't this circular logic?

Hardly. It is known that the Gundams are about the same weight as modern MBT's. It is also known that they are HUGE compared to tanks. It does not take a genius to see that their armour thickness is inconsequential.

We also know they can supposedly fire 120mm shells in rapid-fire from a giant machine-gun. Conservation of momentum dictates that the relative absence of recoil must be due to low-velocity rounds.

All of this has been stated before. You are wasting our time by forcing us to repeat ourselves. Don't be a dumb-fuck, and do us the courtesy of reading the thread before commenting on it.

Wouldn't me saying that the 175mm KE penetrator is powerful, and is not able to penetrate Gundam armour, therefore the Gundam's armour must be tough, be equally valid?

No, because you cannot explain the lack of recoil or the low weight to volume ratio.

The idea of making a flying tank is moronic; decent performance in flight requires a light vehicle, while heavy armour on a tank requires a heavy vehicle. The two purposes are mutually contradictory. What you get is a shitty compromise, borne of infantile minds incapable of comprehending the fact that it's better to use multiple units and combined-arms tactics than to try to combine all arms into a single jack-of-all-trades platform.

[Dendrobius]

Materials:

Fluff says they use Super Tensile Steel.

A 'real life' equivalent could be steel that has no microcracks, interstices, or flaws as what steel we currently use now.

Theory says that this material will be THOUSANDS of times stronger than present flawed steel, as failure in currently used metals is usually due to these. Tearing apart atomic bonds is VERY hard.

[Vympel]

Vympel:

120mm machine guns have not been established to be low velocity, it is ONLY if you say that the Gundam's armor is thin, therefore anything that breaks it must be pathetic.

*sigh*

YES, it has. If these 120mm machine guns had anywhere near the performance (muzzle velocity, shell weight and also shell LENGTH) of the M1A1s 120mm M256 or the T-90s 2A46M2, then the Mecha wouldn't be able to fire it without being knocked on its ass. It's common sense physics (not that I'm a physics expert or anything) It weighs LESS than an M1. It's armor is obviously feeble, as Lord Wong previously pointed out.

[MKSheppard]

Theory says that this material will be THOUSANDS of times stronger than present flawed steel, as failure in currently used metals is usually due to these. Tearing apart atomic bonds is VERY hard.

It's still steel. Do you have any fucking idea what happens when a 120mm
round impacts it's target at 1.8 kilometres a SECOND?

The round is moving so FAST that the steel of the target LIQUEFIES, and the
round in effect, BURNS it's way through the armor, with catastrophic
effects for the internals of the target.

[Vympel]

Materials:

Fluff says they use Super Tensile Steel.

A 'real life' equivalent could be steel that has no microcracks, interstices, or flaws as what steel we currently use now.

Theory says that this material will be THOUSANDS of times stronger than present flawed steel, as failure in currently used metals is usually due to these. Tearing apart atomic bonds is VERY hard.

What theory says it will THOUSANDS of times stronger?! Do you have a source?!

Tanks haven't used pure steel as armor for DECADES. Ever since the T-64A was introduced in 1969 tanks have been equipped with composite armor- the ultimate example being the M1.