Racial Profiling

[Max]

I'll start it off by thread that I am active in, and thought it would be a nice change from Evolution/Creation stuff for you guys.

Please pause a moment, reflect back, and take the following multiple
choice test. The events are actual events from history. They actually
happened!!!


Do you remember?

1. 1968 Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by:

a. Superman

b. Jay Leno

c. Harry Potter

d. a Muslim male extremist between the age of 17 and 40


2. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and
massacred by:

a. Olga Corbett

b. Sitting Bull

c. Arnold Schwarzenegger

d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


3. In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by:

a. Lost Norwegians

b. Elvis

c. A tour bus full of 80-year-old women

d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40



4. During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon
by:


a. John Dillinger

b. The King of Sweden

c. The Boy Scouts

d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


5. In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:

a. A pizza delivery boy

b. Pee Wee Herman

c. Geraldo Rivera

d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


6. In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old
American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair
by:


a. The Smurfs

b. Davy Jones

c. The Little Mermaid

d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


7. In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a US Navy diver
trying to rescue passengers was murdered by:

a. Captain Kidd

b. Charles Lindberg

c. Mother Teresa

d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


8. In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:

a. Scooby Doo

b. The Tooth Fairy

c. Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid

d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


9. In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:


a. Richard Simmons

b. Grandma Moses

c. Michael Jordan

d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


10. In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:

a. Mr. Rogers

b. Hillary Clinton, to distract attention from Wild Bill's women
problems

c. The World Wrestling Federation

d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


11. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles
to take out the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two, one
crashed into the US Pentagon and the other was diverted and crashed by
the passengers. Thousands of people were killed by:

a. Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck and Elmer Fudd

b. The Supreme Court of Florida

c. Mr. Bean

d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40



12. In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against:

a. Enron

b. The Lutheran Church

c. The NFL

d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


13. In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:

a. Bonnie and Clyde

b. Captain Kangaroo

c. Billy Graham

d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

Nope, ..I really don't see a pattern here to justify profiling, do
you? So, to ensure we Americans never offend anyone, particularly
fanatics intent on killing us, airport security screeners will no longer
be allowed to profile certain people. They must conduct random searches
of 80-year-old women, little kids, airline pilots with proper
identification, secret agents who are members of the President's
security detail, 85-year old Congressmen with metal hips, and Medal of
Honor winning and former Governor Joe Foss, but leave Muslim Males
between the ages 17 and 40 alone lest they be guilty of profiling.


Let's send this to as many people as we can so that the Gloria Aldreds
and other dunder-headed attorneys along with Federal Justices that want
to thwart common sense, feel doubly ashamed of themselves -- if they
have any such sense. As the writer of the award winning story "Forrest
Gump" so aptly put it, "Stupid is as stupid does."


Come on people wake up!!! Keep this going. Pass it on to everyone in
your address book.

What do you guys think?

I personally don't think profiling is the solution. As there are plenty of 'terrorist sympathizers' that don't fall into the "a Muslim male extremist between the age of 17 and 40" category. I'm sure more could be done (i.e. overhaul) of the screening system, however there hasn't been an attack in the US. So the system must be doing ok for now.

[wilfulton]

Murphy's law of war:

If it's stupid but it works, it isn't stupid.

[NPComplete]

Gah.

Subject matter aside, this is just an example of terrible statistical sampling.

There are about 10 questions, hand picked to get the answer the writer hopes for. Four out of five dentists recommend.....

Trouble is, this stuff is convincing to a lot of people.

On topic: These questions are stupid. For a start, the last three are all one question. The only reason for Q13 is that hte US invaded Iraq, and Q12 is a complete red herring. The US was involved in a war in Afganistan because they started it! (I know Sept 11th made them invade, but a war against a country because you don't like one of its occupants is going a little too far).

I would like to see a reasonable sampling of terrorist activity (including domestic US stuff like the guy who shot Reagan, or John Lennon, etc) and see what percentage is Muslim. I expect that it will be quite high, but there is probably enough there to make a purely racial approach to airline security look a little naive.

[aerius]

Racial profiling works when it's done properly and combined with other sources of information. To use an example, if a bunch of blacks are coming off a flight from Jamaica in the middle of the week, I can almost guarantee that at least one of them will have drugs on them. Lo and behold when we sic the drug dogs on them we come up with drugs at least 95% of the time.

Now if we just targeted blacks in general, it wouldn't make sense since most of them are clean. The ones flying in from the US & Europe aren't smuggling drugs, just the ones coming in from the Caribbean and South America. Like I say, we have to take other factors into account.

Or another example. Hot young females coming into our country. We get a lot of those, but we pay special attention to the ones entering from Russian and Eastern European countries. Why? Because a significant number are headed into the sex trade, some are mail-order brides, and a bunch of other questionable stuff.

Do it right and profiling's a wonderful tool. Do it the way the US does and it's a huge waste of time & resources.

[Sarevok]

A nitpick about the OP quoted article. Since when did muslim became a race ? Should not it be called religious profiling or something similar ?

That said I am divided on the issue. On one hand a lot of modern terrorists happen to be muslims. But on the other hand profiling all muslims just because of a few jerks who get far too much attention in western media then they deserve do not seem right. To echoe what Aerius said concentrating on suspicious people flying in from more extremist parts of muslim nations could be better then screening anyone who happens to be muslim.

[The Guid]

Exellent point is just ^^^^^ there. If its called "racial profiling" you're going to be stopping a lot of Sihks and irreligous people as well as Muslims. You'll also miss out on the radical idiots who have nothing to with Islam; OK I can see why people are thinking that suddenly they only need worry about Islam but it never helped to only search those people - random searches are designed to deter and not to catch and so might as well be just that... random.

[Darth Wong]

The OP lists crimes and atrocities committed by muslim male extremists throughout history. Should we start listing atrocities committed by Christian male extremists throughout history? Religious extremists of any stripe are dangerous.

[Joe]

These questions are stupid. For a start, the last three are all one question. The only reason for Q13 is that hte US invaded Iraq,

Bullshit. Daniel Pearl was murdered over a year before the U.S. invaded Iraq.

and Q12 is a complete red herring. The US was involved in a war in Afganistan because they started it! (I know Sept 11th made them invade, but a war against a country because you don't like one of its occupants is going a little too far).

We didn't start the war because we just felt like invading Afghanistan, we did because there were Muslim male extremists in Afghanistan who attacked us and a government that facilitated their existence.

[Joe]

Anyway, leaving aside the issue of whether racial profiling is a good idea, this article is flawed because it doesn't take into account shit like the Oklahoma city bombings.

[Darth Wong]

Anyway, leaving aside the issue of whether racial profiling is a good idea, this article is flawed because it doesn't take into account shit like the Oklahoma city bombings.

Indeed. A more comprehensive profiling of atrocities throughout all of human history would only lead to the conclusion that males are much more dangerous than females.

[Coyote]

Racial profiling everyone in an ethnic group offends not the terrorists, but people in that ethnic group-- the very same people you may be trying to woo away from violent behavior. That said, if there are other reasons to suspect a group of Muslim men, then check them, but but there should be other factors that encourage this decision beyond just ethnicity.

Racial profiling works only to a degree. I recall that in the 1970's or 80's, Israel was racially profiling Arabs entering the country, but ignoring tourists of other nationalities. Surprise, a bunch of Japanese "tourists" produced weapons and stormed the Ben-Gurion Airport.

The PLO worked out a "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yous" deal with the Japanese Liberation Army. No one in Israel was worried about Japanese, so it was easy for them to strike. The PLO took out a JLA target on their behalf as a return favor, again, because the target was wary for Japanese men but not Arabs.

And, in Iraq, we were starting to get reports to be on the lookout for blond white men that were wandering the streets of Baghdad and interacting with the population-- Muslims recruited from Bosnia and the former Soviet republics to carry out strikes because they looked Western and would be "above suspicion". At the Orange County Mosque in Californian, I met quite a few American converts, both black and white, interacting with the mostly Arab immigrants that prayed there.

Most terrorists will still be the 17-40 year old Arab male, but it's not a guarantee, and racial profiling will, in the long run, be a symbolic or 'feel good' measure of moderate effectiveness.

[NPComplete]

Bullshit. Daniel Pearl was murdered over a year before the U.S. invaded Iraq. [\quote]

You're right. I mistook his name for one of the murders of Westerners after the Iraq invasion. Cheerfully withdrawn.

We didn't start the war because we just felt like invading Afghanistan, we did because there were Muslim male extremists in Afghanistan who attacked us and a government that facilitated their existence.

No, the invasion was intended to find Osama Bin Laden. It failed. It doesn't change the fact that an invasion of a country because of the actions of a single person living there is wrong.

And it is especially wrong to use that invasion as further evidence of the violent nature of Muslims. If I pick a fight with someone who's attacked me in the past, I'm the aggressor.

[Joe]

No, the invasion was intended to find Osama Bin Laden. It failed. It doesn't change the fact that an invasion of a country because of the actions of a single person living there is wrong.

Yes, getting bin Laden was a goal, but to say that it was the only one is ludicrous. Other al-Qaeda leaders were also targets, as well as several terrorist training camps and the personnel of those camps. Going after bin Laden alone would have still left his organization, which is what allowed him to carry out 9/11.

[NPComplete]

Yes, getting bin Laden was a goal, but to say that it was the only one is ludicrous. Other al-Qaeda leaders were also targets, as well as several terrorist training camps and the personnel of those camps. Going after bin Laden alone would have still left his organization, which is what allowed him to carry out 9/11.

It was an overstatement, perhaps, but you're dancing around the main points. An invasion and occupation of an entire country is not a measured response to the actions of a handful of lunatics, and it isn't fair to trumpet the Afghani self-defense as extremist violence (because although the Taliban were extremists, it was a reasonable use of violence).

If the CFL (Canadian Football League, which is spread out, and has lots of players/supporters. Smart ass wisecracks not needed here ) were to become a terrorist organization, I would fight tooth and nail against any country that wanted to invade Canada to take out their leaders and training camps, not because I support their pigskin terrorist activities, but because the security of my country is paramount.

[Mr Bean]

11. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles
to take out the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two, one
crashed into the US Pentagon and the other was diverted and crashed by
the passengers. Thousands of people were killed by:

a. Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck and Elmer Fudd

b. The Supreme Court of Florida

c. Mr. Bean

d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

Hey I made the list!

Second Shadow is correct, The 9/11 Hijackers were clean cut American looking indivudals. The Munich Olympics killers as well looked Western.

Third

On topic: These questions are stupid. For a start, the last three are all one question. The only reason for Q13 is that hte US invaded Iraq, and Q12 is a complete red herring. The US was involved in a war in Afganistan because they started it! (I know Sept 11th made them invade, but a war against a country because you don't like one of its occupants is going a little too far).

The Taliban(The "nominal" rulers of A) refused to give up Osama and said he support him and his acitions 100%. Rarley have we had such a clear cut support for a Terriorst as that.

[Mr Bean]

If the CFL (Canadian Football League, which is spread out, and has lots of players/supporters. Smart ass wisecracks not needed here ) were to become a terrorist organization, I would fight tooth and nail against any country that wanted to invade Canada to take out their leaders and training camps, not because I support their pigskin terrorist activities, but because the security of my country is paramount.

There is the diffrence right there, The Taliban supported Osama and Al-Q and said as much. Ontop of that they were only the "nominal" rulers of the country, comparing them to a Western Country is not possible.

[Joe]

It was an overstatement, perhaps, but you're dancing around the main points. An invasion and occupation of an entire country is not a measured response

By whose standards...?

of a handful of lunatics

A handful of lunatics assisted, encouraged, and defended by the Taliban regime that was in power. Evidence suggests that bin Laden had close relations with the Taliban.

and it isn't fair to trumpet the Afghani self-defense as extremist violence (because although the Taliban were extremists, it was a reasonable use of violence).

Christ, you're nitpicking. They were the military of a government that had supported and facilitated extremist violence against the United States, and they were in fact Muslim extremists themselves. Are you missing something here?

If the CFL (Canadian Football League, which is spread out, and has lots of players/supporters. Smart ass wisecracks not needed here ) were to become a terrorist organization, I would fight tooth and nail against any country that wanted to invade Canada to take out their leaders and training camps, not because I support their pigskin terrorist activities, but because the security of my country is paramount.

No war would be necessary, because if Canada had cells of terrorists operating within its borders more than likely it would be trying to capture and imprison them, not support them. In the event a native Canadian terrorist attacked another country I imagine the Canadian government wouldn't get all pissy and uncooperative with the country that was attacked, either.

[RedImperator]

If the CFL (Canadian Football League, which is spread out, and has lots of players/supporters. Smart ass wisecracks not needed here ) were to become a terrorist organization, I would fight tooth and nail against any country that wanted to invade Canada to take out their leaders and training camps, not because I support their pigskin terrorist activities, but because the security of my country is paramount.

Don't be an idiot. If the CFL became a terrorist organization that killed 3000 Americans, and the Canadian government aided and abetted it after the fact by protecting it, the United States would be fully justified in invading Canada and overthrowing that government. Being an accessory after the fact still makes one culpable, and to call the Taliban merely an accessory after the fact is overly generous, as it ignores all the support and comfort provided to Bin Laden and his band of merry men throughout the late 1990's and early 2000's. Not that Canada (which, incidentally, completely disagrees with your view on Afghanistan, seeing as it has its own troops in harm's way over there) would ever do such a thing, seeing as it's a civilized nation.

[NPComplete]

Well, I suppose you're right. If pressed, I would have to admit that what really bothers me is that the majority of people affected by an invasion like that are ordinary, hard-working people, and that that fact tends to be lost alongside the black-and-white, 'good-vs-evil' portrayal of the whole affair.

These are countries that, in all likelihood, will not actually be independant for the better part of a century.

It's also a lot easier to be detached from an issue like this if you like in countries which have, realistically speaking, zero chance of being invaded and occupied.

[bekeleven]

Indeed. A more comprehensive profiling of atrocities throughout all of human history would only lead to the conclusion that males are much more dangerous than females.

I agree with this assesment. I also agree that Muslims shuold probably be given special attention. However, wouldn't it be easier to just, like, hire for airports the guys that do casino security*?


*Props to Bill Mahr

[Master of Ossus]

Provided that some level of screening is continued with people outside of the targeted group, profiling is an effective and ethical means of maximizing resources.

[1123581321]

Hey they forgot one:

In 1995, the Murrah Federal Building was bombed by:

A. third graders

B. Luke Skywalker

C. God

D. Muslim male extremists.

Wait a minute...

[Master of Ossus]

Hey they forgot one:

In 1995, the Murrah Federal Building was bombed by:

A. third graders

B. Luke Skywalker

C. God

D. Muslim male extremists.

Wait a minute...

No one is arguing that NO ONE other than a particular ethnic group commits violent crimes. That's part of the reason why I still advocate some level of screening for all parties and groups. Nonetheless, the correlation between terrorist actions and Islamofascists is very difficult to miss--particularly when examining attacks designed to kill civilians. In such conditions, it makes sense to me that we should try and concentrate our resources where they have the best chance of providing protection for everyone at large. Guess what? Buddhist monks aren't running around hijacking airliners or bombing train stations. Why should we spend the same fraction of our resources checking on them as we do on the population that has historically been shown to be much more likely to launch such attacks?

[weemadando]

Am I the only one who is picking up on the fact that Muslim extremist male between 17-40 doesn't help with racial profiling?

What with Muslim being a religious, rather than racial descriptor.

Perhaps 'Arabic' is what you were looking for.

[Fleet Admiral JD]

It's like what (and I know none of you will like this) Ann Coulter said: If someone came to this day from 1990, or any time pre-9/11, they'd say "Well, at least you know what your enemy looks like in this war on terror." Arabic men, with strong religious backgrounds. Now, I can tell you firsthand that the current system is fucking retarded. At McCarain Airport in Vegas we had to wait in a rat maze of "special security screening" passengers, yet Mohammed in his turban went right through with only the "basic" package.

The world just has to face it. Most of the terrorists that are attacking America are Arabic, and they're the ones that need "special security screening."

Sorry, I guess I went off on a rant there...