A Disturbing Situation

[Dakarne]

I just recieved an E-Mail petition... it was asking for signatures involving the near-permanent incarceration of Jon Venables and Robert Thompson. Both of them being under-age murderers at age 10.

They both murdered Jamie Bulger, a 3-yr old boy who was lost in a Shopping Centre. They led him to a 4 Kilometres to a railway track, molesting him, and torturing him, and eventually left him to die on a railway track. The boy was found dead, sliced in half by a passing Train, however, forensics indicate that he died before then.

This was 12 years ago

The Murderers are now having their Identities altered and are being given new lives for ending a 3 year old boy's.

Any thoughts?

[Pcm979]

This identity-altering shit has got to stop. They shouldn't even consider letting these murderers out unless 3 independant psychiatrists have determined that they're no longer raving psychos, I don't care how young they were at the time.

[Dakarne]

For the Crime alone I think they should serve life sentences... if not recieve the Death Penalty (unfortunately illegal in Britain)

I don't care how bloody sane they are now, they shouldn't get away with that... I didn't even outline the extent of what torture they inflicted on the poor boy.

Kicking him and beating him with bricks and metal bars, rubbing paint into his eyes, stuffing batteries into his mouth and anus, molesting his penis (exact details thereof are unknown, and to be quite honest, would you want to?)...

Then weighing his head down with debris on a railway track, to make it look like a careless accident...

He died before being sliced in half by a cargo train.

[Pcm979]

It really fucking scares my how psycho the British young seem to be. It seems like every week there's another group of ~10 year olds who go completely batshit and kill someone.

[Darth Wong]

It really fucking scares my how psycho the British young seem to be. It seems like every week there's another group of ~10 year olds who go completely batshit and kill someone.

Here in Toronto, the police report having young offenders openly sneer at them because they know that the law shields them from any real consequences of their actions. Laws which overly favour young offenders are dangerous.

[Dakarne]

Here in Toronto, the police report having young offenders openly sneer at them because they know that the law shields them from any real consequences of their actions. Laws which overly favour young offenders are dangerous.

I think there should be a severe limit on the crime itself...

I mean, it's okay to be let off with a slap on the wrist after shoplifting...

But when someone murders a Three Year Old Child, they should be tried as adults and sentenced to the maximum penalty. Of course, this wasn't just murder, this was several hours of torture and then being left to die on a railway track.

It really fucking scares my how psycho the British young seem to be. It seems like every week there's another group of ~10 year olds who go completely batshit and kill someone.

True, like Darth Wong said, Laws which overly favour young offenders are dangerous.

Of course, the closest I've come to being in trouble with the law is taking a bag of sugar home from the shops (ahem, 16 year old carrying a bag of white powder), and the extent of that was a Copper just giving me a dirty look.

[Mange]

It really fucking scares my how psycho the British young seem to be. It seems like every week there's another group of ~10 year olds who go completely batshit and kill someone.

Here in Toronto, the police report having young offenders openly sneer at them because they know that the law shields them from any real consequences of their actions. Laws which overly favour young offenders are dangerous.

Yes, absolutely. I completely agree with that. Here in Sweden, no children under the age of 15 can be punished for any wrong doings (if they commit an unlawful act, their case isn't even brought before a court). The worst thing that can happen is that the social services are brought in. If a young person aged between 15 and 17 commits a crime that warrants incarcaration, then they are sent to a Youth Detention Home for a minimum of 14 days and a maximum of 4 years (the more serious crime, the longer detention, but the 4 year stay is maximum after which the person is released).

People between 18 and 21 are given reduced sentences (which in Swedish criminal law is known as "Youth Rebate") and the aim is that their stay in prison is to be as short as possible. Courts are prohibited from sentencing people younger than the age of 21 to life imprisonment(which in practice is between 12-16 years in prison as people convicted to life imprisonment can apply to the government for parole after ten years). A proposition has been forwarded that, if implemented, would almost completely remove prison as a consequence for young people under the age of 21.

Youth crime are on the increase here in Sweden (violent crimes in particular). Some municipalities (cities aren't an official designation in Sweden) have reported that youth crimes have more than doubled during the last ten years and noone knows how to deal with this situation which is getting out of hand.

[Dakarne]

I'm very glad that my parents are strict... I would rather have strict parents to deal with than parents who'd let me turn into that.

[Hillary]

For the Crime alone I think they should serve life sentences... if not recieve the Death Penalty (unfortunately illegal in Britain)

You believe in the death penalty for 10-year olds???? That's possibly the most shocking thing I've seen posted on here.

You are actually incorrect in your statement that they were below the age of responsibility - they were tried, convicted and sentenced in a criminal court. As with all life cases, their behaviour and rehabilitation inside prison is monitored and the person released on parole once they have served what is judged to be an adequate sentence. This is wholly correct in my opinion.

As a civilised society, we surely have to see past the crime and look at the fact that these were 10-year old children themselves. How can we simply lock them away forever for something they did when they were only 10. Surely it is better for society as a whole that these boys can now contribute to it rather than spend life behind bars costing us a small fortune to keep.

By the way, the reason they are getting new identities is that the Bulger family have continuously promised to kill the boys once they were released - there is no option.

[Dakarne]

You believe in the death penalty for 10-year olds???? That's possibly the most shocking thing I've seen posted on here.

Only when said 10 year olds torture, molest and kill a 3 year old.

You are actually incorrect in your statement that they were below the age of responsibility - they were tried, convicted and sentenced in a criminal court. As with all life cases, their behaviour and rehabilitation inside prison is monitored and the person released on parole once they have served what is judged to be an adequate sentence. This is wholly correct in my opinion.

I don't think they served an "Adequate Sentence"... 12 years is a gross understatement. And they get new lives for taking away a 3 year old's.

As a civilised society, we surely have to see past the crime and look at the fact that these were 10-year old children themselves. How can we simply lock them away forever for something they did when they were only 10. Surely it is better for society as a whole that these boys can now contribute to it rather than spend life behind bars costing us a small fortune to keep.

I don't care what age they were, they didn't just accidentally kill him, they deliberately killed him. And tortured him, and knew that they were doing the wrong thing since they tried to hide the body, and make it look like an accident.

By the way, the reason they are getting new identities is that the Bulger family have continuously promised to kill the boys once they were released - there is no option.

Would you like to have your three year old son raped, tortured and murdered? Didn't think so. Remember, they've only served half of their sentence.

[Hillary]

You believe in the death penalty for 10-year olds???? That's possibly the most shocking thing I've seen posted on here.

Only when said 10 year olds torture, molest and kill a 3 year old.

They didn't molest him, by the way - that email contains a lot of false information - the batteries up the arse is not true, for instance. In any case, advocating the death penalty for children is an appalling state of affairs. It's the law of the mob and thank fuck I live in a country where we are (so far) resisting that line.

I don't think they served an "Adequate Sentence"... 12 years is a gross understatement. And they get new lives for taking away a 3 year old's.

Only because other people want to kill them. 12 years is easily enough of a punishment as long as they are no longer a danger to society. I am not in a position to judge that and neither are you.

I don't care what age they were, they didn't just accidentally kill him, they deliberately killed him. And tortured him, and knew that they were doing the wrong thing since they tried to hide the body, and make it look like an accident.

It was absolutely appalling, I agree. But I reiterate, they were children themselves. They've spent over half their lives locked up for what they did and should now be allowed to live some form of a useful life.

Would you like to have your three year old son raped, tortured and murdered? Didn't think so. Remember, they've only served half of their sentence.

Irrelevant. Basing laws on highly charged emotions is a completely flawed concept. Also, most criminals serve only half of their sentences in this country. They are not being treated any differently from any other criminal, nor should they.

[Darth Wong]

... as long as they are no longer a danger to society.

That is an unacceptable yardstick. By this logic, if a man committed a horrific crime but psychologists agreed that he would never do it again, they should release him without spending a day in jail.

[Hillary]

... as long as they are no longer a danger to society.

That is an unacceptable yardstick. By this logic, if a man committed a horrific crime but psychologists agreed that he would never do it again, they should release him without spending a day in jail.

I never said they shouldn't serve a sentence - the whole quote was

12 years is easily enough of a punishment as long as they are no longer a danger to society.

I certainly don't advocate people getting off scot free.

[Darth Wong]

12 years is easily enough of a punishment as long as they are no longer a danger to society.

I certainly don't advocate people getting off scot free.

But if you reject vengeance as a motive, then what is your justification for keeping a hypothetical one-time-only murderer behind bars for any length of time? Deterrent? If it's deterrent, then why is 12 years enough, particularly with this "ID change" nonsense?

[Hillary]

12 years is easily enough of a punishment as long as they are no longer a danger to society.

I certainly don't advocate people getting off scot free.

But if you reject vengeance as a motive, then what is your justification for keeping a hypothetical one-time-only murderer behind bars for any length of time? Deterrent? If it's deterrent, then why is 12 years enough, particularly with this "ID change" nonsense?

I do believe there should be a certain level of punishment for a crime, mainly for deterent reasons (both for them and for other would-be criminals). Another reason for incarceration is to remove someone dangerous from society. How long this should be varies from case-to-case but I think we have things about right over here, although I agree it is a difficult (if not impossible) thing to measure.

As for the 'ID change nonsense', there is a real risk of the Bulger family seeking them out and killing them when they are released (the UK is small enough for that to be feasible wherever they moved to). This is not common practice.

[Dakarne]

I do believe there should be a certain level of punishment for a crime, mainly for deterent reasons (both for them and for other would-be criminals). Another reason for incarceration is to remove someone dangerous from society. How long this should be varies from case-to-case but I think we have things about right over here, although I agree it is a difficult (if not impossible) thing to measure.

I'm sorry, but being given a new life for taking someone elses is bullshit!

As for the 'ID change nonsense', there is a real risk of the Bulger family seeking them out and killing them when they are released (the UK is small enough for that to be feasible wherever they moved to). This is not common practice.

I'm sorry, but the UK isn't that small... it's about the same size as a large state... and someone can get lost easily if they want in Britain. But I don't think they should be released yet anyway, if ever... It's one thing to kill someone... but it's entirely different to kill a child.

[Hillary]

I'm sorry, but being given a new life for taking someone elses is bullshit!

Strawman argument. They have not been given new life for killing Bulger, but for their own protection.

I'm sorry, but the UK isn't that small... it's about the same size as a large state... and someone can get lost easily if they want in Britain. But I don't think they should be released yet anyway, if ever... It's one thing to kill someone... but it's entirely different to kill a child.

With our national press, it wouldn't take long to find them.

[Dakarne]

With our national press, it wouldn't take long to find them.

Remember... one can easily move about in England... very easily in fact. It would only take a Car and Petrol and you can hide yourself in the middle of Wales, Scotland or Ireland...

Strawman argument. They have not been given new life for killing Bulger, but for their own protection.

Ah... but the question is, do they deserve it, and do they deserve to be let free, at all? I can't believe you're taking their side. The Bulger family deserve their revenge, I know you'd be thinking the same way.

[Hillary]

Ah... but the question is, do they deserve it, and do they deserve to be let free, at all? I can't believe you're taking their side. The Bulger family deserve their revenge, I know you'd be thinking the same way.

I'm just taking the side of the law. I don't believe that people should be locked up forever unless they are a danger. Therefore at some point they should be released. On release they also deserve the protection of the law. People have done far worse things than these two boys, but the publicity isn't on them.

After 12 years, I would be getting on with my life I'd like to think. I'm no vigilante and would not be counting the days until I could hunt them down.

[Dakarne]

I'm just taking the side of the law. I don't believe that people should be locked up forever unless they are a danger. Therefore at some point they should be released. On release they also deserve the protection of the law. People have done far worse things than these two boys, but the publicity isn't on them.

Harold Shipman, and Ian Huntley (suspiciously close to the name of one of my Teachers) instantly spring to mind, the Latter killed and raped two schoolgirls, the former killed around 250 people. Both of them recieved immense public attention.

I don't think the Law has been severe enough in the two boy's instance... they prevented someone from having a life, and made his last few hours a literal hell. I wouldn't sentence them to death, but put them behind bars for the rest of their lives.

After 12 years, I would be getting on with my life I'd like to think. I'm no vigilante and would not be counting the days until I could hunt them down.

Has this ever happened to you? I doubt it. You can't say oyu wouldn't do it, if it hasn't happened to you.

[Hillary]

Harold Shipman, and Ian Huntley (suspiciously close to the name of one of my Teachers) instantly spring to mind, the Latter killed and raped two schoolgirls, the former killed around 250 people. Both of them recieved immense public attention.

2 examples out of the many evil things that happen. Whether they get publicity depends on what other news is around at the time. Huntley chose a slow news week in August.

I don't think the Law has been severe enough in the two boy's instance... they prevented someone from having a life, and made his last few hours a literal hell. I wouldn't sentence them to death, but put them behind bars for the rest of their lives.

Well, we're not going to agree on this one then.

After 12 years, I would be getting on with my life I'd like to think. I'm no vigilante and would not be counting the days until I could hunt them down.

Has this ever happened to you? I doubt it. You can't say oyu wouldn't do it, if it hasn't happened to you.

But I have a better idea of how I would react than you have, yet you felt able to predict my actions. The vast majority of families of murdered children do not constantly tell papers and radio stations that they will kill the murderer(s), nor do they do so. As a non-violent person, I would expect not to either.

[Dakarne]

But I have a better idea of how I would react than you have, yet you felt able to predict my actions. The vast majority of families of murdered children do not constantly tell papers and radio stations that they will kill the murderer(s), nor do they do so. As a non-violent person, I would expect not to either.

I'm non-violent, but if someone was to kill a member of my family (any member), I'd be screaming for blood. There's a line that can be crossed, Darth Wong's a parent, let's ask his opinion shall we?

[Hillary]

But I have a better idea of how I would react than you have, yet you felt able to predict my actions. The vast majority of families of murdered children do not constantly tell papers and radio stations that they will kill the murderer(s), nor do they do so. As a non-violent person, I would expect not to either.

I'm non-violent, but if someone was to kill a member of my family (any member), I'd be screaming for blood. There's a line that can be crossed, Darth Wong's a parent, let's ask his opinion shall we?

Let's just hope neither of us is ever in the position to find out.

[Dakarne]

Let's just hope neither of us is ever in the position to find out.

I wholeheartedly agree with you, my family is very important to me.

[Zornhau]

For practical reasons, you have to have some sort of grading for punishments, since otherwise you get the "Hung for a sheep as for a lamb" mentallity.

However, it concerns me that our system is not good at dealing with psychopaths, wheras psychopaths appear to be very good at dealing with our system.

Is psychopathy treatable? Or do they just get better at not being caught. Do psychopaths have human rights?