B5 design flaws?

[[BL]Phalanx]

No matter how you rationalise it (and I can think of one way it might be feasible), it still amounts to a technobabble deus ex-machina by which Delenn's Whitestar squadron was able to magick its way out of what should have been a fatally inescapable deathtrap. Not only poor writing on its face but implausible considering that the Whitestars should already have combat pilots on board who are able to perform the Skindancing manoeuvers. These are warships, after all, and it is assumed that warships would have fully trained crews manning them. It would be like sending out an entire squadron of F-18 pilots who had never been trained in the Immelman Turn for frontline combat service.

One instance where JMS definitely dropped the ball.

These warships have trained crews on them, but not *warrior caste* members. Remember at that point in the timeline the Minbari civil war was about to get underway, and the castes hadn't been getting along very well. The warrior caste refused to even fight in the Shadow War. Delenn broke the Grey Council and the Religious and Worker castes took their forces into battle.

Traditionally, even though each caste has an equal share of their forces, these ships are flown by the warrior caste. However, when the religious and worker castes broke away, they took back the 2/3 of the forces that they controlled.

Those crews we saw were religious and worker caste.

Hence, none of the crew members would've received the same level of training as a member of the warrior caste. None of them would've been able to do any "skin-dancing".

Now sure, the "plot-device" to have them program the computers was a way out, but it's hardly magic or technobabble, anymore than the real-life tactics used at the Battle of Red Cliffs was able to grant the Wu army victory while outnumbered 10 to 1. Yes, it provided them with a convenient escape, but darn it, it was at least *plausible*.

[Darth Wong]

And one of the people there, who had been with SDI and the Space Program for 12 years, currently a top-level NASA consultant, pulled me aside and said that after seeing the line about the gravity not letting the body get very far . . . he said he sat down to do the math required to come up with the actual MASS of B5, starting with the 2.5 million tons of actual structure, plus likely vegetation, quarters, occupants, ships docked inside...and when you add it all up, it came to about the same mass as a fairly small moon...and IT WOULD BE ENOUGH TO KEEP THE BODY FROM -- AS STATED IN THE SCRIPT -- GETTING VERY FAR.

Did he calculate the strength required for this small amount of material to withstand the load placed upon it, particularly when stretched out over such a large structure? It sounds to me like he tried to evaluate one particular problem; it does not mean he endorsed the realism of the show in general. It improves upon shows like Star Trek, but that doesn't mean it's actually realistic; it just includes a few quasi-realistic touches, which I'm sure the NASA boys are glad to see.

A couple of other high-level engineers backed him up, and said that it was quite reasonable.

Was JMS talking about gravity?

This was in response to someone who said that a body should not have been pulled back to the station, but instead would drift off because B5 doesn't have sufficient mass.

Most of B5 spins. And I find it difficult to imagine that its structure is such an insignificant fraction of its overall weight, particularly since its structure must be strong enough to hold it together. Perhaps it's made of highly realistic adamantium?

[Vympel]

Perhaps it's made of highly realistic adamantium?

Wolverine's skeleton!? LOL

How would one categorize that substance- properties etc?

[[BL]Phalanx]

Did he calculate the strength required for this small amount of material to withstand the load placed upon it, particularly when stretched out over such a large structure? It sounds to me like he tried to evaluate one particular problem; it does not mean he endorsed the realism of the show in general. It improves upon shows like Star Trek, but that doesn't mean it's actually realistic; it just includes a few quasi-realistic touches, which I'm sure the NASA boys are glad to see.

I'm not talking about whether B5's realistic or not here. The only thing I'm addressing is what Alyeska brought up and what Enlightenment said.

In this case, someone somewhere said that it was unrealistic for B5 to have enough gravity to pull a body back to the station after it had been thrown out. That NASA consultant did some estimates on B5's mass and it turned out that B5 *would've* had sufficient gravity to pull a body back.

Whether or not 2.5 million tons of outter hull would realistically work out is another issue.

Most of B5 spins. And I find it difficult to imagine that its structure is such an insignificant fraction of its overall weight, particularly since its structure must be strong enough to hold it together. Perhaps it's made of highly realistic adamantium?

The 2.5 million tons is the metal casing only, and does not include the rest of the structure:

The 2.5 million tons of spinning *metal* refers only to that part, the metal casing. It doesn't include the furniture, the structures, the Garden, the 250,000 humans and aliens...

[Crown]

Not that I could remember... Although there was one cringe moment where Delen asks Lennier if he could perform the 'skin-skimming' maneouver that the Warrior cast do, and he replied not with another 5 years of training... but I could program the computer to do it (he does so in under 20secs).

Say it with me folks: WHAT.... THE.... FUCK!

What's the problem here? The Warrior caste can do it manually, but Lennier can't... so he gives the computers some parameters and the computer does it for him. It's not as if he wrote out a whole big program right on the spot, he just fed in parameters.

The problem is that it devalues the enite ability to perform this 'highly complex' and dangerous maneouvre to something which borders on the rediculous. I should note, as I am sure you are aware, that the Lennier said that he couldn't perform the skindancing without an additional 5 years training. Basically instead of programming into the computer in 20secs and getting it down pat, he should have said; We could program the parameters into the computer, but the end result would not be nearly as good.

Thus the whole 'additional 5 years of training' wouldn't be such a joke. We the audience would be like; if what the Whitestars did is just an example of this skindancing, but no where near as good as if a trained warrior was doing it, then wow!

Patrick is right, JMS just dropped the ball on that.

[Enlightenment]

Hmmm. You have a quote on that?

It should be here:

http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/find/Answers/answ75.html

Disclaimer: this link worked in 1997. Midwinter might have reorganized things in the past five years.

Another fun bit is where he defended the scene where Marcus and Franklin are going to Mars (Can't remember ep. name. It's in season 4 somewhere near Racing Mars) and are shown in zero g even though the cargoship is clearly under thrust.


As I've been saying for a few years, JMS' understanding of physics is rather pathetic...

[[BL]Phalanx]

The problem is that it devalues the enite ability to perform this 'highly complex' and dangerous maneouvre to something which borders on the rediculous. I should note, as I am sure you are aware, that the Lennier said that he couldn't perform the skindancing without an additional 5 years training. Basically instead of programming into the computer in 20secs and getting it down pat, he should have said; We could program the parameters into the computer, but the end result would not be nearly as good.

And *that* would not make sense, either. To think that a pilot could fly with greater precision than a computer can? You'd have people making the exact opposite complaint, that it doesn't make sense that warrior caste members can fly better than a computer can, and they'd be justified in doing so.

Thus the whole 'additional 5 years of training' wouldn't be such a joke. We the audience would be like; if what the Whitestars did is just an example of this skindancing, but no where near as good as if a trained warrior was doing it, then wow!

No, we as the audience would be like "wow, B5 has shitty computers!"

Come on. It's set 250 years in the future. Give computer science and engineering some credit.

The warrior caste can do it, but what makes *that* impressive is that they can do it on manual without need of a computer.

Patrick is right, JMS just dropped the ball on that.

Yeah, well, JMS ain't perfect. He tries, and when you try, you're bound to screw up and fail now and then. We can all criticize him and his work from where we're at very easily. While you can go ahead and criticize away, I think the "ROFLMAO's" are unwarranted.

[Patrick Degan]

No matter how you rationalise it (and I can think of one way it might be feasible), it still amounts to a technobabble deus ex-machina by which Delenn's Whitestar squadron was able to magick its way out of what should have been a fatally inescapable deathtrap. Not only poor writing on its face but implausible considering that the Whitestars should already have combat pilots on board who are able to perform the Skindancing manoeuvers. These are warships, after all, and it is assumed that warships would have fully trained crews manning them. It would be like sending out an entire squadron of F-18 pilots who had never been trained in the Immelman Turn for frontline combat service.

One instance where JMS definitely dropped the ball.

These warships have trained crews on them, but not *warrior caste* members. Remember at that point in the timeline the Minbari civil war was about to get underway...<snip>

Yes, I am familiar with the plotline, thank you.

Those crews we saw were religious and worker caste. Hence, none of the crew members would've received the same level of training as a member of the warrior caste. None of them would've been able to do any "skin-dancing".

That is immaterial. They were supposed to be Anlya'Shok, and they were supposed to be preparing for the Great War for years. Non-Warrior-Caste personnel can learn a combat manoeuver just as any Warrior Caste member could. And when Delenn broke the council, there was at least one Warrior Caste member who walked out with her. Surely, some Warriors would have joined the Anlya'Shok and they would have supervised the training of Whitestar and Niall combat pilots.

Now sure, the "plot-device" to have them program the computers was a way out, but it's hardly magic or technobabble, anymore than the real-life tactics used at the Battle of Red Cliffs was able to grant the Wu army victory while outnumbered 10 to 1. Yes, it provided them with a convenient escape, but darn it, it was at least *plausible*.

Excuse me, but the officers of the Army of Wu were schooled in Sun-Tzu's strategic doctrines, and the troops were properly trained and disciplined. That's why they won at Red Cliffs.

Programming a computer to perform complex, dynamic manoeuvers in just twenty seconds is not plausible, particularly when you've got an enemy gunboat squadron already targeting your own ships for destruction. It is also the less optimal solution in terms of writing.

The drama of the scene would have worked far better if Lennier had told Delenn that the crews were trained in Skindancing, but didn't have the same level of experience in performing it in combat as Warrior Caste veterans —with some pilots having never flown combat before that battle. Can they pull it off? Will Delenn's squadron escape the trap?

Now, which option creates more tension for the viewer: rookie pilots attempting combat manoeuvers they had never actually performed in combat before the battle they're just about to enter, or simply programming the ship to do the job?

Besides which, surely Whitestar crews would have received accelerated training in shiphandling and space combat before entering combat during the Shadow War and would certainly have gained combat experience during that conflict. Another reason why the plot device just does not work in terms of plausibility.

[Enlightenment]

What's the problem here? The Warrior caste can do it manually, but Lennier can't... so he gives the computers some parameters and the computer does it for him. It's not as if he wrote out a whole big program right on the spot, he just fed in parameters.

If the WS autopilot can do combat evasion that effectively, then why the hell does the warrior caste waste five years training their pilots to do it? Either the warrior caste likes to waste years of training time teaching people how to do things that are trivial for flight management software to duplicate or JMS pulled a technobabble solution out of his ass because he couldn't think of a better way to get Bonehead out of her seasonal appointment with the hostage takers.


The bigger howler in that episode, however, was that Bonehead suddenly sprouted captain's qualifications despite the fact that she never practiced to maintain her skills and never before demonstrated the skills to command a ship in battle. As a relative amature she should have had her ass handed to her on a plate and wound up dead rather than launching an offensive and escaping with minimal losses.

[[BL]Phalanx]

That is immaterial. They were supposed to be Anlya'Shok, and they were supposed to be preparing for the Great War for years. Non-Warrior-Caste personnel can learn a combat manoeuver just as any Warrior Caste member could. And when Delenn broke the council, there was at least one Warrior Caste member who walked out with her. Surely, some Warriors would have joined the Anlya'Shok and they would have supervised the training of Whitestar and Niall combat pilots.

No, none of the warrior caste members joined her.

http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries ... e/054.html

Each caste populates the ships in their jurisdiction with their own people. Which is why those on the Minbari warships that came in, which we'll see shortly, are religious caste, no warriors among them...but even the religious caste is well trained in combat, as part of their education in temple. We've seen some of this already in Lennier's abilities in a fight.

No, 5 left the council with her. And one can wonder, Did she turn down the position of leader of the Grey Council, which would be a balance for that role, in order to eliminate the council and become primary ruler? (That is what some of the warrior caste are bound to begin wondering after a while.)

Basically, the warrior caste doesn't think it's their war; there's also a certain amount of resentment in it, I think...they *led* the last war, they *did* their job, and got yanked back and forced to surrender. That was a terrible blow to their pride, caused in part by an alien race, so their attitude now tends to be more or less, "Screw 'em."

You're assuming that even regular Warrior caste members receive skin-dancing training. Not every modern day pilot is a Blue Angel or what not.

Excuse me, but the officers of the Army of Wu were schooled in Sun-Tzu's strategic doctrines, and the troops were properly trained and disciplined. That's why they won at Red Cliffs.

Pfft, yeah sure. You also left out the use of the "battered body" ruse, the unexpected change in winds (implying an ability to predict the weather accurately), the ploy to convince the enemy to chain his ships together, etc... any one of which, if it failed, would've doomed them. It's real history, but the way you're calling "skin-dancing" a deus-ex machina, if you were reading Three Kingdoms you'd probably say the same about their tactics.

Programming a computer to perform complex, dynamic manoeuvers in just twenty seconds is not plausible, particularly when you've got an enemy gunboat squadron already targeting your own ships for destruction. It is also the less optimal solution in terms of writing.

It's not as if Lennier necessarily went and wrote a whole computer program. "Programming" in this context could well mean him feeding parameters into the computer and letting the computer do all the lower-level stuff.

Computer science is yet young, and I think having a computer perform "complex, dynamic maneuvers" given only a few parameters is within the realm of the possible.

You may be right that it's far from the optimal solution in terms of writing, but I'm not arguing that point. All I'm saying is that programming the computer to do "skin-dancing" is far from technobabble and far from implausible.

The drama of the scene would have worked far better if Lennier had told Delenn that the crews were trained in Skindancing, but didn't have the same level of experience in performing it in combat as Warrior Caste veterans —with some pilots having never flown combat before that battle. Can they pull it off? Will Delenn's squadron escape the trap?

Now, which option creates more tension for the viewer: rookie pilots attempting combat manoeuvers they had never actually performed in combat before the battle they're just about to enter, or simply programming the ship to do the job?

Besides which, surely Whitestar crews would have received accelerated training in shiphandling and space combat before entering combat during the Shadow War and would certainly have gained combat experience during that conflict. Another reason why the plot device just does not work in terms of plausibility.

Regarding the training of the Anla'Shok:

Remember that as per "In the Beginning", the Anla'Shok were poorly funded and considered a joke.

The Grey Council could've taken a lot more action to be supportive behind the scenes, getting the warrior caste more involved with the rangers, giving aid to the non-aligned worlds...there was a LOT they could have been doing all this time that wouldn't have required tipping their hand. Instead they sat and did nothing. And now, with B5 on the edge of falling, to say it's not their problem was too much. Now is the time they have to start coming forward.

And once again, think of modern day pilots. Not all of them are Blue Angels. Not every Minbari pilot is going to be trained to do skin-dancing, which is really just a performance skill and not something you'd expect to use in combat.

After all, the skills that the Blue Angels put on display for people aren't actual practical combat skills.

[Crown]

The problem is that it devalues the enite ability to perform this 'highly complex' and dangerous maneouvre to something which borders on the rediculous. I should note, as I am sure you are aware, that the Lennier said that he couldn't perform the skindancing without an additional 5 years training. Basically instead of programming into the computer in 20secs and getting it down pat, he should have said; We could program the parameters into the computer, but the end result would not be nearly as good.

And *that* would not make sense, either. To think that a pilot could fly with greater precision than a computer can? You'd have people making the exact opposite complaint, that it doesn't make sense that warrior caste members can fly better than a computer can, and they'd be justified in doing so.

I concede as to how one may view it like that, but then let me ask you as to why you would bother in having human (or minbari) pilots at all if their computers can do it so much better? Well?

Thus the whole 'additional 5 years of training' wouldn't be such a joke. We the audience would be like; if what the Whitestars did is just an example of this skindancing, but no where near as good as if a trained warrior was doing it, then wow!

No, we as the audience would be like "wow, B5 has shitty computers!"

Come on. It's set 250 years in the future. Give computer science and engineering some credit.

The warrior caste can do it, but what makes *that* impressive is that they can do it on manual without need of a computer.

Again I can see your view on this (even thought I think it rather odd). My point is that it makes the additional 5 years training redundant if you can program your computer to do the manouevre in under 20sec (I am sure that it was actually a lot less time than that, but just to be concervative)! It becomes a sad joke, and that is what makes it so ridiculous. It essentially devalues the 'additional 5 years training' to the ability to punch it parameters into a computer. Why is this gripe (and it is a gripe) so hard to understand?

Patrick is right, JMS just dropped the ball on that.

Yeah, well, JMS ain't perfect. He tries, and when you try, you're bound to screw up and fail now and then. We can all criticize him and his work from where we're at very easily. While you can go ahead and criticize away, I think the "ROFLMAO's" are unwarranted.

Please don't put words into my mouth. I said it was a cringe moment. IE either state that the computer doing it is inferior to a warrior doing it, or remove the whole 'not with an additional 5 years training' part in the dialogue. The only "ROFLMAO" that I said was in relation to an object leaving another object would continue to spiral. And I don't care what you say, that was very much warranted, for crying out loud, it is year 11 physics!

[Enlightenment]

Programming a computer to perform complex, dynamic manoeuvers in just twenty seconds is not plausible, particularly when you've got an enemy gunboat squadron already targeting your own ships for destruction. It is also the less optimal solution in terms of writing.

It's not completely beyond the bounds of possibility, however, if the 'programming' was merely a matter of specifying some high-precision waypoints relative to the mutant heatseaking rattlesnakes' ship and directing the flight management system to follow the flightplan using short-range, high-precision docking LIDARs (etc) to track ownship position. In this case 'programming' isn't as much writing code but much more along the lines of what people mean when they 'program' their VCR or thermistat.

This kind of thing really isn't that far off in the real world: I'd have no chance of flying a precision flyby 6' over an aircraft carrier but I certainly could define the motion path in under a minute in any of the 3D animation packages I'm familiar with. Finding some way to interconnect e.g. Lightwave layout to positional sensors and a flight management computer on a real aircraft is merely an integration problem.

IMO, JMS gets off the hook here in terms of skindancing being more than an on-the-spot programming job. What he's hung himself with, however, is why the warrior caste wastes years training people to manually fly within tens of feet of a target when existing Minbari FMS gear can do just as good a job.

[[BL]Phalanx]

If the WS autopilot can do combat evasion that effectively, then why the hell does the warrior caste waste five years training their pilots to do it? Either the warrior caste likes to waste years of training time teaching people how to do things that are trivial for flight management software to duplicate or JMS pulled a technobabble solution out of his ass because he couldn't think of a better way to get Bonehead out of her seasonal appointment with the hostage takers.

Why do the Blue Angels bother practicing the skills that they do, given that such skills hardly have any combat applications? The last thing you wanna do in a fight is fly practically glued to your wingmates.

Hell, look at the number of things people like to do to challenge themselves when an easier way is possible. Why do people even bother training hard to be runners when a bicycle can carry you there faster? Why do cyclists bother training so hard when you can just drive a car?

Those 5 years that Lennier referred to were of additional training *for him*. That doesn't mean that "skin-dancing" takes 5 years to learn. Lennier isn't a member of the warrior caste.

The bigger howler in that episode, however, was that Bonehead suddenly sprouted captain's qualifications despite the fact that she never practiced to maintain her skills and never before demonstrated the skills to command a ship in battle. As a relative amature she should have had her ass handed to her on a plate and wound up dead rather than launching an offensive and escaping with minimal losses.

That's character shields for ya...

[Crown]

Why do the Blue Angels bother practicing the skills that they do, given that such skills hardly have any combat applications? The last thing you wanna do in a fight is fly practically glued to your wingmates.

Hell, look at the number of things people like to do to challenge themselves when an easier way is possible. Why do people even bother training hard to be runners when a bicycle can carry you there faster? Why do cyclists bother training so hard when you can just drive a car?

Those 5 years that Lennier referred to were of additional training *for him*. That doesn't mean that "skin-dancing" takes 5 years to learn. Lennier isn't a member of the warrior caste.

Now now, [BL]Phalanx that is a strawman and you know it. One is irrelevant in combat, while the other was used in combat. Come on, we aren't saying that JMS sucks balls or anything, it's just on this one occasion he dropped the ball.

[[BL]Phalanx]

I concede as to how one may view it like that, but then let me ask you as to why you would bother in having human (or minbari) pilots at all if their computers can do it so much better? Well?

Actually, from alot of what we've seen, their pilots make plenty of use of computer controlled flight, such as Lennier telling his fighter to automatically follow another fighter in "Meditations on the Abyss". Keffer also used alot of voice commands to tell his Starfury what to do.

Still, you need a pilot there to make use of those "macros" and give directions to computers. A ship likewise has a crew to carry out its functions, but you'd still have a captain to give orders.

And in the event that you want manual control, you have a pilot ready to fly on manual.

Again I can see your view on this (even thought I think it rather odd). My point is that it makes the additional 5 years training redundant if you can program your computer to do the manouevre in under 20sec (I am sure that it was actually a lot less time than that, but just to be concervative)! It becomes a sad joke, and that is what makes it so ridiculous. It essentially devalues the 'additional 5 years training' to the ability to punch it parameters into a computer. Why is this gripe (and it is a gripe) so hard to understand?

As I said before, those additional 5 years of training were years of training that Lennier would need... not that it takes 5 years *just* for learning the skin-dancing maneuver. For example, I could say that a high school freshman would need an additional 6 years of learning before he could, say, write a computer compiler, while a college junior in the same field of study would just learn that in a single quarter of study.

Please don't put words into my mouth. I said it was a cringe moment. IE either state that the computer doing it is inferior to a warrior doing it, or remove the whole 'not with an additional 5 years training' part in the dialogue. The only "ROFLMAO" that I said was in relation to an object leaving another object would continue to spiral. And I don't care what you say, that was very much warranted, for crying out loud, it is year 11 physics!

Alright fine, laugh at him if that floats your boat. I just think it's uncalled for.

[Enlightenment]

Come on, we aren't saying that JMS sucks balls or anything,

Speak for yourself. JMS is about as overrated as is the UFP in what passes for Darkstar's mind.

[[BL]Phalanx]

Now now, [BL]Phalanx that is a strawman and you know it. One is irrelevant in combat, while the other was used in combat. Come on, we aren't saying that JMS sucks balls or anything, it's just on this one occasion he dropped the ball.

It's not a strawman, it's an analogy. Besides, we only know for sure that Minbari warriors do "skin-dancing" for performance... we don't know that they'd do the same in a real combat situation.

Hell, Lennier didn't even use manual flight in "Meditations on the Abyss" when a crisis came up during a training flight.

[[BL]Phalanx]

As a related issue, Centauri pilots are willing to put their fighters through maneuvers that leave them unconcious if it gives them the upper hand in combat. From there, a computer AI takes over and flies and fights until the pilot wakes up and resumes control.

[Patrick Degan]

That is immaterial. They were supposed to be Anlya'Shok, and they were supposed to be preparing for the Great War for years. Non-Warrior-Caste personnel can learn a combat manoeuver just as any Warrior Caste member could. And when Delenn broke the council, there was at least one Warrior Caste member who walked out with her. Surely, some Warriors would have joined the Anlya'Shok and they would have supervised the training of Whitestar and Niall combat pilots.

No, none of the warrior caste members joined her.

I went by the number of Grey Counsellors remaining in the chamber when they walked out. I'll have to view the episode again to confirm the number who departed with Delenn.

The fifth season episode "Meditations From The Abyss" indicates that some Warrior Caste joined the Anlya'Shok during the Shadow War. Findell, the Warrior Caste cadet who decides to kill himself, confessed to Lennier that he felt guilty that he did not join the war along with his brother, who died in battle and could not live down his shame and dishonour as he perceived it.

Each caste populates the ships in their jurisdiction with their own people. Which is why those on the Minbari warships that came in, which we'll see shortly, are religious caste, no warriors among them...but even the religious caste is well trained in combat, as part of their education in temple. We've seen some of this already in Lennier's abilities in a fight.

And, in point of fact, it is the Religious Caste who train the Warrior Caste in combat. Delenn makes a point of reminding the Shai Alyt Shakiri of that in "Moments Of Transition".

You're assuming that even regular Warrior caste members receive skin-dancing training. Not every modern day pilot is a Blue Angel or what not.

Don't be obtuse. We're talking about combat manoeuvering, not stunt-flying, and the Skindance is referred to as a combat manoeuver. Even ordinary pilots are drilled in Immelman Turns and other aerobatics as a matter of course.

Pfft, yeah sure. You also left out the use of the "battered body" ruse, the unexpected change in winds (implying an ability to predict the weather accurately), the ploy to convince the enemy to chain his ships together, etc... any one of which, if it failed, would've doomed them. It's real history, but the way you're calling "skin-dancing" a deus-ex machina, if you were reading Three Kingdoms you'd probably say the same about their tactics.

In a word, bullshit. Sun-Tzu teaches specifically of having the knowledge of Heaven —weather and seasons and knowing how to read the skies to know the conditions for battle. Everything else you list is tactical ability in which the officers would have been schooled. They certainly didn't click abacus beads together until the solutions came to them in a vision.

It's not as if Lennier necessarily went and wrote a whole computer program. "Programming" in this context could well mean him feeding parameters into the computer and letting the computer do all the lower-level stuff.

You can "feed parameters" into a database, but it won't do you any good if the computer doesn't have the software for the Skindance already within the matrix.

Computer science is yet young, and I think having a computer perform "complex, dynamic maneuvers" given only a few parameters is within the realm of the possible.

Unfortunately, a battlefield situation is always going to be considerably more dynamic and unpredictable.

You may be right that it's far from the optimal solution in terms of writing, but I'm not arguing that point. All I'm saying is that programming the computer to do "skin-dancing" is far from technobabble and far from implausible.

It is exactly technobabble and quite implausible. There should already be trained combat pilots on board and some with field experience from the Shadow War.

Regarding the training of the Anla'Shok:

Remember that as per "In the Beginning", the Anla'Shok were poorly funded and considered a joke.

An incident taken from twelve years before the building of the Whitestar fleet and the advent of Sinclair as the Entil'zha does not support your case.

The Grey Council could've taken a lot more action to be supportive behind the scenes, getting the warrior caste more involved with the rangers, giving aid to the non-aligned worlds...there was a LOT they could have been doing all this time that wouldn't have required tipping their hand. Instead they sat and did nothing. And now, with B5 on the edge of falling, to say it's not their problem was too much. Now is the time they have to start coming forward.

Then where did the Whitestar fleet come from? Who trained the crews? How were they able to hold their own against the Shadows and Vorlons?

And once again, think of modern day pilots. Not all of them are Blue Angels. Not every Minbari pilot is going to be trained to do skin-dancing, which is really just a performance skill and not something you'd expect to use in combat.

And your evidence for the contention that Skindancing is not a combat manoeuver is...? Because from what I observe, the manoeuver is a close-level strafing of the target. The trainees from the Maria (a.k.a. Whitestar 27) perform a similar manoeuver during the easter-egg hunt in "Meditations From The Abyss".

After all, the skills that the Blue Angels put on display for people aren't actual practical combat skills.

Their act also includes a demonstration of standard combat manoeuvers as well as the specialised stuntflying which is the heart of their performance. At least it did at the Belle Chasse Air Show I attended four years ago. And all of the Blue Angels pilots are drawn from the naval air arm —combat pilots.

[[BL]Phalanx]

I went by the number of Grey Counsellors remaining in the chamber when they walked out. I'll have to view the episode again to confirm the number who departed with Delenn.

The fifth season episode "Meditations From The Abyss" indicates that some Warrior Caste joined the Anlya'Shok during the Shadow War. Findell, the Warrior Caste cadet who decides to kill himself, confessed to Lennier that he felt guilty that he did not join the war along with his brother, who died in battle and could not live down his shame and dishonour as he perceived it.

Yes, but that's during the Shadow War, not before it. Prior to the Shadow War, it doesn't seem that the Anla'shok were held in particularly high esteem, especially by the warrior caste.

It also seemed that the Minbari weren't as dedicated to preparing for the Shadow War, since "In the Beginning" indicates that many no longer believed the Shadows would return anyway.

And, in point of fact, it is the Religious Caste who train the Warrior Caste in combat. Delenn makes a point of reminding the Shai Alyt Shakiri of that in "Moments Of Transition".

That's twisting her words and you know it. Come on. That doesn't even make sense when you think about it. The religious caste specifically teaching the warrior caste in a field that they really don't have business specializing in?

Don't be obtuse. We're talking about combat manoeuvering, not stunt-flying, and the Skindance is referred to as a combat manoeuver. Even ordinary pilots are drilled in Immelman Turns and other aerobatics as a matter of course.

Actually they refer to seeing it at performances, so it isn't necessarily a combat maneuver.

In a word, bullshit. Sun-Tzu teaches specifically of having the knowledge of Heaven —weather and seasons and knowing how to read the skies to know the conditions for battle. Everything else you list is tactical ability in which the officers would have been schooled. They certainly didn't click abacus beads together until the solutions came to them in a vision.

You're ignoring the fact that it took the successful completion of *several* very unlikely objectives, the failure of any of which would've meant defeat. The sheer amount of court intrigue and mind fucks that went on in that one is ridiculous.

First was the "battered body ruse" to send a false defector over which Cao Cao almost didn't fall for. Second was the even knowing that Cao Cao had a spy within their midst to witness that event in the first place. Third was knowing when fog would come in order to employ the ruse now known as "Kong Ming Borrows Arrows", in order to acquire enough arrows for the coming fight. Fourth was tricking the enemy into chaining his ships together for stability. Fifth was actually executing all of this and engaging the enemy and setting fire to Cao Cao's ships.

You can "feed parameters" into a database, but it won't do you any good if the computer doesn't have the software for the Skindance already within the matrix.

Unfortunately, a battlefield situation is always going to be considerably more dynamic and unpredictable.

See Enlightenment's post and my reference to Centauri pilots willingly passing out from high-g maneuvers and letting the computer fly and fight for them after they pass out.

It is exactly technobabble and quite implausible. There should already be trained combat pilots on board and some with field experience from the Shadow War.

Yes, trained combat pilots from the *religious* and *worker* caste, not the warrior caste. The castes were on the verge of civil war at that point anyway.

Then where did the Whitestar fleet come from? Who trained the crews? How were they able to hold their own against the Shadows and Vorlons?

The Whitestar fleet was built by the worker caste, obviously. Then again, it wasn't a very big fleet, it only numbered 150 ships total, compared to the several thousand that the Minbari have.

The warrior caste probably trained the crews, but really in the time they had, which was just a few years, it'd be a crash course.

They *weren't* able to hold their own against the Shadows and Vorlons. They got stepped all over the moment the Shadows and Vorlons quit messing around. The Army of Light fleet at Coriana 6 numbered 8,000 ships. The Shadow and Vorlon fleets each numbered 10,000 ships, and that wasn't their entire fleet.

And your evidence for the contention that Skindancing is not a combat manoeuver is...? Because from what I observe, the manoeuver is a close-level strafing of the target. The trainees from the Maria (a.k.a. Whitestar 27) perform a similar manoeuver during the easter-egg hunt in "Meditations From The Abyss".

From what we were told, all we know for sure is that it's used in performances. Sure, Delenn employed it in combat, but that doesn't mean it's a typical tactic.

Observe the turn rate of Omegas in "Severed Dreams"... strafing that close to a target isn't very safe. All it needs to do is make a quick turn and your fighter is splattered against it. The Drakh mothership was unusually large and unmaneuverable.

The trainees didn't strafe a target, they flew through an asteroid field at high speed shooting at targets.

Their act also includes a demonstration of standard combat manoeuvers as well as the specialised stuntflying which is the heart of their performance. At least it did at the Belle Chasse Air Show I attended four years ago. And all of the Blue Angels pilots are drawn from the naval air arm —combat pilots.

Yeah, but some of the stuff they do there, you wouldn't actually want to do in a combat situation.

[Patrick Degan]

I went by the number of Grey Counsellors remaining in the chamber when they walked out. I'll have to view the episode again to confirm the number who departed with Delenn.

The fifth season episode "Meditations From The Abyss" indicates that some Warrior Caste joined the Anlya'Shok during the Shadow War. Findell, the Warrior Caste cadet who decides to kill himself, confessed to Lennier that he felt guilty that he did not join the war along with his brother, who died in battle and could not live down his shame and dishonour as he perceived it.

Yes, but that's during the Shadow War, not before it. Prior to the Shadow War, it doesn't seem that the Anla'shok were held in particularly high esteem, especially by the warrior caste.

It also seemed that the Minbari weren't as dedicated to preparing for the Shadow War, since "In the Beginning" indicates that many no longer believed the Shadows would return anyway.

All of which is immaterial, once the preparations for war get underway. I will remind you again that there is a twelve year gap between the incidents in In The Beginning and the buildup of the Whitestar fleet.

And, in point of fact, it is the Religious Caste who train the Warrior Caste in combat. Delenn makes a point of reminding the Shai Alyt Shakiri of that in "Moments Of Transition".

That's twisting her words and you know it. Come on. That doesn't even make sense when you think about it. The religious caste specifically teaching the warrior caste in a field that they really don't have business specializing in?

It is not twisting her words, it is quoting her words. That is the canon evidence, whether you like the idea or not.

stunt-flying, and the Skindance is referred to as a combat manoeuver. Even ordinary pilots are drilled in Immelman Turns and other aerobatics as a matter of course.

Actually they refer to seeing it at performances, so it isn't necessarily a combat maneuver.

Then why is it used in a combat exercise in "Meditations From The Abyss"? Why is a similar manoeuver employed in the attack on a Vorlon observation post at the opening of "Into The Fire"? There do seem to be indications that Skindancing is a combat manoeuver, and I've pointed out that combat manoeuvers are also performed at air shows.

In a word, bullshit. Sun-Tzu teaches specifically of having the knowledge of Heaven —weather and seasons and knowing how to read the skies to know the conditions for battle. Everything else you list is tactical ability in which the officers would have been schooled. They certainly didn't click abacus beads together until the solutions came to them in a vision.

You're ignoring the fact that it took the successful completion of *several* very unlikely objectives, the failure of any of which would've meant defeat. The sheer amount of court intrigue and mind fucks that went on in that one is ridiculous.

That is what strategic training and troop discipline is all about. And everything you bring up to try to liken the Red Cliffs battle as support for the idea of programming battle strategy into a computer and pushing a button only undermines the case even further.

First was the "battered body ruse" to send a false defector over which Cao Cao almost didn't fall for. Second was the even knowing that Cao Cao had a spy within their midst to witness that event in the first place. Third was knowing when fog would come in order to employ the ruse now known as "Kong Ming Borrows Arrows", in order to acquire enough arrows for the coming fight. Fourth was tricking the enemy into chaining his ships together for stability. Fifth was actually executing all of this and engaging the enemy and setting fire to Cao Cao's ships.

And... this supports your arguments about programming battle strategy into a computer and pressing a button how, exactly? To put it another way, how did the generals who pulled off this strategy manage to do so? Was it schooling and training, or clicking abacus beads until a vision came to them?

You can "feed parameters" into a database, but it won't do you any good if the computer doesn't have the software for the Skindance already within the matrix.

Unfortunately, a battlefield situation is always going to be considerably more dynamic and unpredictable.

See Enlightenment's post and my reference to Centauri pilots willingly passing out from high-g maneuvers and letting the computer fly and fight for them after they pass out.

That is only for part of a battle, not the whole battle. The computer augments the man at the controls. It does not replace him.

It is exactly technobabble and quite implausible. There should already be trained combat pilots on board and some with field experience from the Shadow War.

Yes, trained combat pilots from the *religious* and *worker* caste, not the warrior caste. The castes were on the verge of civil war at that point anyway.

You're still refusing to see the point. Findell's brother was Warrior Caste and joined the Anlya'Shok for the Shadow War. The Religious Caste train the Warrior Caste for battle. The Anlya'Shok were able to survive and prevail in a full-scale war. How was this possible, unless they were trained in strategy, tactics, and battlefield discipline?

Then where did the Whitestar fleet come from? Who trained the crews? How were they able to hold their own against the Shadows and Vorlons?

The Whitestar fleet was built by the worker caste, obviously. Then again, it wasn't a very big fleet, it only numbered 150 ships total, compared to the several thousand that the Minbari have.

Immaterial. They still built a battle fleet of fast and highly capable ships to a new design. They trained crews to man the ships in combat and captains to command in battle. They built a war force capable of surviving on the battlefield and winning. They fought the Shadow War. Are you seriously going to maintain that nobody in this battleforce would know how to perform complex battle manoeuvers after all that?

The warrior caste probably trained the crews, but really in the time they had, which was just a few years, it'd be a crash course.

And yet, it was enough to successfully fight the Shadow War.

They *weren't* able to hold their own against the Shadows and Vorlons. They got stepped all over the moment the Shadows and Vorlons quit messing around. The Army of Light fleet at Coriana 6 numbered 8,000 ships. The Shadow and Vorlon fleets each numbered 10,000 ships, and that wasn't their entire fleet.

And your source for these numbers is? Further, the Army Of Light fleet hardly got stepped on at Coriana, and they did win in the Battle of Sector 83 in "Shadowdance".

And your evidence for the contention that Skindancing is not a combat manoeuver is...? Because from what I observe, the manoeuver is a close-level strafing of the target. The trainees from the Maria (a.k.a. Whitestar 27) perform a similar manoeuver during the easter-egg hunt in "Meditations From The Abyss".

From what we were told, all we know for sure is that it's used in performances. Sure, Delenn employed it in combat, but that doesn't mean it's a typical tactic.

That does not sufficently make your case.

Observe the turn rate of Omegas in "Severed Dreams"... strafing that close to a target isn't very safe. All it needs to do is make a quick turn and your fighter is splattered against it. The Drakh mothership was unusually large and unmaneuverable.

We're not talking about anything that occurred in "Severed Dreams" in terms of combat manoeuvering. Invalid example.

The trainees didn't strafe a target, they flew through an asteroid field at high speed shooting at targets.

While skimming over the surfaces of asteroids several times. The episode shows this.

Their act also includes a demonstration of standard combat manoeuvers as well as the specialised stuntflying which is the heart of their performance. At least it did at the Belle Chasse Air Show I attended four years ago. And all of the Blue Angels pilots are drawn from the naval air arm —combat pilots.

Yeah, but some of the stuff they do there, you wouldn't actually want to do in a combat situation.

You choose to ignore the fact that service stunt teams do perform combat manoeuvers in their acts as demonstrations of the skills of the service in addition to the special stunt manoeuvers and try, on very thin evidence, to state that Skindancing is exclusively a stunt.

[Enlightenment]

That's character shields for ya...

No, it's sloppy writing. Adding abilities to a character's skill set without proper foreshadowing undermines the base of the character and insults the viewer/reader's intelligence. If JMS intended for Bonehead to be able to effectively command a small unit in battle (and given that it later fell out of the canon that she'd gone through ranger training herself this is probably what he had in mind) then he really needed to drop more hints in advance rather than slipstreaming 'combat command' into Bonehead's skill set when it suited the plot.