Warp Strafing

[Typhonis 1]

OK people I have heard from both sides of this topic .Can the Star Fleet in TNG DS9 and Voy usewarp strafing even though they have never been shown too even when it was advantageous.I`m not as knowledgeable about Voy but still havent heard of it used in that show.

[Vympel]

Nope. It's just not done, it was only done in TOS; where it was clearly stated that fighting at warp was the norm and conferred a considerable advantage.

However, everything changed in the TNG era. Ships do not 'warp strafe' and the only 'fighting at warp' is using photon torpedoes in a pursuit situation. All ships fight at sub-light speed, and tactics are centered around this- see the Picard Maneuver.

It's also clearly stated in the TNG writer's guide (Gene Rodennbery) that phasers can't be fired at warp.

[Patrick Degan]

An FTL pass on an enemy starship is simply not feasible from any standpoint. The ship would flash past the target far too quickly to even hope to get a phaser-lock on it or even make a solid enough sensor contact.

[Patrick Degan]

Nope. It's just not done, it was only done in TOS; where it was clearly stated that fighting at warp was the norm and conferred a considerable advantage.

It wasn't even done then, in actual fact. In the three instances in which alledged "warp strafing" was carried out (in the episodes "Journey To Babel", "The Ultimate Computer", and "Elaan Of Troyus") each time the enemy ship was making its final approach on the Enterprise, it was clearly moving at sublight velocities as could be seen on screen and confirmed in one instance when Sulu was counting down in seconds and kilometre ranges the movement of a Klingon ship.

[Tsyroc]

It's also clearly stated in the TNG writer's guide (Gene Rodennbery) that phasers can't be fired at warp.

And of course despite that rule they've fired phase canons at warp several times on Enterprise even after it was stated on the show itself that it
wasn't possible. (I think they did it because the effects for the phase canons are cooler than their lame torpedos)

I think they did it on Voyager as well but I'm not certain.

[Master of Ossus]

Clearly they cannot warp strafe a target that is not at warp with them. If they had been able to, the Dominion would have done so while attacking DS9. The fact that they did not eliminates the warp-strafe as a tactic, as does the Picard Maneuver.

Now, SF ships CAN fire their weapons while at warp, but only against other ships that are similarly at warp.

[SirNitram]

Hrm. Message In A Bottle had phasers fired at Warp. Damn you, B&B, and your pathetic writing.

Anyway, Warp Strafing is impossible. Not because of any technical limitation, even. Think about it:

The best range ever claimed is 300,000 klicks, or about 1 Lightsecond. How long does it take to get a Phaser lock on the show? Or a torpedo lock? Almost always, more then a second(In fact, it takes a good chunk of a second for the phaser strips to glow and combine to fire).

So even at Warp 1, they are screwed.

If you really want to continue this, keep in mind things in realspace seem to affect ships at Warp. Realize that ISD's have subspace sensors. Realize the size of the arc you must make to come around for a second run.

See the point yet?

[SPOOFE]

People who advocate the use of warp strafing always point to examples of a ship firing at another ship while both are in warp. We've never seen an example of a vessel in warp firing at another that's not in warp.

[Ender]

Fighting at Warp in a war against the Empire really wouldn't be smart. Because of how a hyperdrive works compared to warp, fleets will not encounter in deep space. As a result, most will occur near planets or space stations inside gravity wells. This is bad while at warp because 1) Your position to protect is limiting your warp capabilities because of its presence. You don't want to run into the planet when attempting to engage the fleet that just popped up in close orbit above it. 2) Gravity wells from the planets seem to have a bad effect on warp drives (extra wear and tear maybe?) hence their leaving the system first generally. 3) By the time you make your pass, bleed off the excess momentum and turn back your enemy can launch its dropships of begin bombarding the planet.

[neoolong]

People who advocate the use of warp strafing always point to examples of a ship firing at another ship while both are in warp. We've never seen an example of a vessel in warp firing at another that's not in warp.

How would that affect a ship at warp against a ship using SW FTL? SW FTL is much faster so would it even matter?

[Jawawithagun]

How would that affect a ship at warp against a ship using SW FTL? SW FTL is much faster so would it even matter?

You mean against a SW ship with a slow enough hyperdrive - like a ... (really slow) Death Star *g* or one that conveniently slows down enough to be shot at? Don't think it would be possible, entering hyperspace does involve leaving normal space time, while ST ships stay there and only deform it a bit. Maybe Romulans might affect them with these singularities they use to power their ships, but they are mighty small so it would need to be a very close encounter.

[Slartibartfast]

I think that the deciding factor, as somebody pointed out, is that "warp strafing" would make stationary targets like space stations dead meat in space, and it would make little sense to have them armed at all. But we clearly see that is not the case.

Trekkies can't say that these stationary objects protect vital spots like a capital world or a wormhole, because the way Hyperspace works, ALL combat would take place near important targets like homeworlds. OTOH warp-powered Star Trek ships seem to run into each other in deep space for no apparent reason (apparently space is smaller in the Star Trek universe, I don't know)

[SPOOFE]

How would that affect a ship at warp against a ship using SW FTL? SW FTL is much faster so would it even matter?

Speed issues aside, subspace and hyperspace are two completely different domains. So far, all evidence is that Trek ships (TNG+, at the very least) can only engage warp-to-warp... not warp-to-realspace or vice versa.

[bozman]

Voyager fired its phasers while traveling at warp? Ah jeez... Was it while it was traveling at Warp 10?

[neoolong]

How would that affect a ship at warp against a ship using SW FTL? SW FTL is much faster so would it even matter?

Speed issues aside, subspace and hyperspace are two completely different domains. So far, all evidence is that Trek ships (TNG+, at the very least) can only engage warp-to-warp... not warp-to-realspace or vice versa.

Hyperspace isn't even in realspace so Trek ships wouldn't be able to affect SW ships in hyperspace right?

[Illuminatus Primus]

How would that affect a ship at warp against a ship using SW FTL? SW FTL is much faster so would it even matter?

Speed issues aside, subspace and hyperspace are two completely different domains. So far, all evidence is that Trek ships (TNG+, at the very least) can only engage warp-to-warp... not warp-to-realspace or vice versa.

Hyperspace is normal space-time; it is space-time viewed from a superluminal perspective (ref: Tech. Commentaries, SW2ICS).

Subspace is just some sort of extradimensional thing or something...allows them to bend space then push the bubble around for warp.

Thus, trying to strafe at warp a SW ship in hyperspace is impossible.

[SPOOFE]

Hyperspace isn't even in realspace so Trek ships wouldn't be able to affect SW ships in hyperspace right?

No, they wouldn't, barring the creation of an immense gravity well.

[Master of Ossus]

People who advocate the use of warp strafing always point to examples of a ship firing at another ship while both are in warp. We've never seen an example of a vessel in warp firing at another that's not in warp.

How would that affect a ship at warp against a ship using SW FTL? SW FTL is much faster so would it even matter?

Generally, when warp-strafing is proposed by the Trek contingent, it is designed to combat Imperial vessels once they move out of hyperspace and enter into the realm of real-space. It is pretty clear, for any number of reasons, that ST forces would never be able to engage Imperial forces that were actually in hyperspace, at the time.

[greenmm]

People who advocate the use of warp strafing always point to examples of a ship firing at another ship while both are in warp. We've never seen an example of a vessel in warp firing at another that's not in warp.

How would that affect a ship at warp against a ship using SW FTL? SW FTL is much faster so would it even matter?

Generally, when warp-strafing is proposed by the Trek contingent, it is designed to combat Imperial vessels once they move out of hyperspace and enter into the realm of real-space. It is pretty clear, for any number of reasons, that ST forces would never be able to engage Imperial forces that were actually in hyperspace, at the time.

Interesting...

So they think that:

a) Unlike the SW universe, which actually has hyperdrive, the Federation starships will actually be able to track SW ships in hyperspace from outside of hyperspace, despite the fact that their own ability to track other ships at warp speed seems to have a limited range, and their FTL sensors seem to be based off of subspace (which does not intrude onto nor affect hyperspace).

b) they will have ample warning of the SW ships while the SW ships are still in hyperspace to place themselves in a position to warp-strafe the SW vessels once they emerge from hyperspace, despite the vast speed differential between the 2 methods of propulsion which would determine how far your sensors would have to reach, and the apparant limited range of Trek sensors (when SW ships travel conservatively at about 2500 LY/hour, you need sensors that can track objects 2500 LY away in real-time in order to have 1 hour's warning... yet the faster Trek ships would need 2.5 years of sustained high-warp travel to cross that distance themselves, and I don't remember their sensors having that kind of range).

c) the ST ships with their warning time will be able to get far enough away to make the warp-strafing practical (i.e. have enough time to lock weapons on the target), yet close enough that they'll both be able to quickly detect the SW ships emerging from hyperspace and be able to pull off the warp-strafe maneuver before the SW ships can recover.

d) assuming they could even pull that off, they would have to deliver enough firepower to even damage the SW ships' shields... and let's face it, if a smuggler like Solo would be cautious enough to exit hyperspace with shields engaged, a regular military commander would be even more likely to. And a warship armed with gigaton-level weaponry obviously needs shielding capable of standing up to that kind of pounding, making it nigh-impossible for the ST ships to break through the shielding.

e) finally, they have to be able to do all this while assuming that SW ships can't detect the ST ships while they're using warp drive.

In short, the ST ships have to overcome shields whose strength vastly overmatches their own firepower, have to be able to detect enemy ships using an unfamiliar drive technology where the ship doesn't even remain in this dimension, do something that's impossible for the more advanced enemy technology to do (i.e. track a target that's in hyperspace while you're in normal space), and yet somehow remain undetected by the enemy ships. A tortured, grasping-at-straws chain of logic that makes a house of cards look like bedrock-solid foundation...

[greenmm]

People who advocate the use of warp strafing always point to examples of a ship firing at another ship while both are in warp. We've never seen an example of a vessel in warp firing at another that's not in warp.

How would that affect a ship at warp against a ship using SW FTL? SW FTL is much faster so would it even matter?

Generally, when warp-strafing is proposed by the Trek contingent, it is designed to combat Imperial vessels once they move out of hyperspace and enter into the realm of real-space. It is pretty clear, for any number of reasons, that ST forces would never be able to engage Imperial forces that were actually in hyperspace, at the time.

What's even worse is, thanks to the speed difference, SW ships can pull off a "Picard Maneuver" from the opposite side of a solar system (well, maybe not that far, but from so far away that the ST ship would probably have missed them in the first place anyway).

[Master of Ossus]

How would that affect a ship at warp against a ship using SW FTL? SW FTL is much faster so would it even matter?

Generally, when warp-strafing is proposed by the Trek contingent, it is designed to combat Imperial vessels once they move out of hyperspace and enter into the realm of real-space. It is pretty clear, for any number of reasons, that ST forces would never be able to engage Imperial forces that were actually in hyperspace, at the time.

What's even worse is, thanks to the speed difference, SW ships can pull off a "Picard Maneuver" from the opposite side of a solar system (well, maybe not that far, but from so far away that the ST ship would probably have missed them in the first place anyway).

No, maybe I wasn't clear the first time. Generally, Trekkies who propose warp-strafing acknowledge that UFP ships cannot perform such a maneuver while the Imperial vessels are actually in hyperspace. Only after the Imperial ships move out of hyperspace is warp-strafing considered a viable option for them. That is the way that they present this tactic. However, the use of weapons on space station precludes the ability of starships in Trek to perform such maneuvers.

[greenmm]

No, you were pretty clear. I was just thinking out loud about how the vastly superior speed of a hyperdrive would allow for a "microjump" that would in effect duplicate the microwarp "Picard Maneuver" from ST, yet do so over a range where ST ships might not even detect the SW ship until it completes the maneuver and is firing at their unshielded hulls...

[Master of Ossus]

No, you were pretty clear. I was just thinking out loud about how the vastly superior speed of a hyperdrive would allow for a "microjump" that would in effect duplicate the microwarp "Picard Maneuver" from ST, yet do so over a range where ST ships might not even detect the SW ship until it completes the maneuver and is firing at their unshielded hulls...

I see. In SW, microjumping is a very difficult process. It appears to invoke considerable strain on the engines, and is actually significantly more dangerous than a longer jump. I don't think that microjumping over such a small distance is a viable SW tactic, and the Picard Maneuver actually requires a smaller distance, so that the light from the ship will appear twice to an observer. That being said, the strategic advantages that hyperdrives provide almost certainly make up for any small, tactical disadvantages that they invoke.