A Disturbing Situation

[Dakarne]

For practical reasons, you have to have some sort of grading for punishments, since otherwise you get the "Hung for a sheep as for a lamb" mentallity.

This is true, and I'm not arguing.

However, it concerns me that our system is not good at dealing with psychopaths, wheras psychopaths appear to be very good at dealing with our system.

Yes, this is also true.

Is psychopathy treatable? Or do they just get better at not being caught.

Depends entirely on the Psychopath I'd bet. If they aren't that deranged, I'm sure they can be treated, but must pay at least some debt to society. If they're smart, they'd be very capable of fooling people. If they aren't, they'd end up in incarceration for the rest of their natural lives, or in a gas chamber. (depending on whether your country has the Death Sentence or not)

Do psychopaths have human rights?

Yes, and in some cases, unfortunately so. The problem is not the Psychopath, it's how bloody human rights activists remove power to deal with them.

Sort of like making it practically illegal for a Teacher to actually punish a Student in Britain.

[NPComplete]

I'm non-violent, but if someone was to kill a member of my family (any member), I'd be screaming for blood.

I probably would too. However, I would be irrational (to say the least) at a time like that. There is a good reason why criminals are tried by an (ideally) impartial court system, rather than by the families of their victims.

[Dakarne]

I probably would too. However, I would be irrational (to say the least) at a time like that. There is a good reason why criminals are tried by an (ideally) impartial court system, rather than by the families of their victims.

Yes, I do believe in the court system, however, we are talking about a pretty wierd case here.

[Cairber]

I think when I hear "10 year olds" I tend to think back to what i can remember/what ive seen in home videos/ what people have told me about myself at 10 years old. But, as is becoming more clear each day, 10 years old has changed. I look at the ten year olds I babysat for, and I see that they are doing things I only started around 12-13 or even older. They are talking about sex in a sophisticated way, they talk about colleges, they know more about the world than I ever did. For this reason, I find it difficult to decide what kind of punishment a crime like this deserves. But i do feel it cannot be decided simply by pointing out an age, and conjuring simpathy from that age.

[NPComplete]

Yes, I do believe in the court system, however, we are talking about a pretty wierd case here.

That has to be in the running for understatement of the century (even though we're only 5 years in).

By weird, I assume you meant, say, abominable, or abhorrent. However, I would almost go so far as to suggest that the worse a crime someone is committed of, the more care needs to be taken in trying them fairly.

The real problem as I see it is that, in truly awful crimes, with a huge amount of publicity, if the public is baying loudly for a suspect, then the first person that gets accused/arrested instantly gets convicted in the court of public opinion. (This is the same public that, most of the time, is content to complain about how poorly the police do their jobs, and how they never arrest the right people).

Don't get me wrong, most of the time they probably arrest the right person, but I'm willing to stand up for the right to a fair trial for anyone as a safeguard against the possibility that I'm wrongfully accused of something in the future.

The question of punishment is tied in to this. No amount will be enough for some people (esp the family of the victim), but there has to be a correct figure. I don't know what it is, which is one reason why I wouldn't want to be a judge (and why we pay them to not only pass sentence on the Paul Bernardo's of the world, but also on the 'guy-who-robbed-a-liqour-store-to-pay-for-daughter's-surgery-and-the-gun-went-off-accidentally''s of the world.)

As far as I'm concerned, what I give up to get this freedom is the right to complain about individual sentences (although if judges are being too lenient or too strict on the whole, I can act through governmental channels)

[Darth Wong]

These 10 year olds will never, ever amount to anything useful to society. I guarantee it. There's no way you can be that much of a horrible monster at 10 years old and become a good person later on, rehab or no rehab. Therapists think too much of their own abilities.

And don't tell me they're too young to know right from wrong. I have two children below 10; I know exactly how much a kid of that age is capable of understanding.

[Dakarne]

And don't tell me they're too young to know right from wrong. I have two children below 10; I know exactly how much a kid of that age is capable of understanding.

In addition, those two tried to make it look like a train accident, poorly I might add... this shows that they knew that it was wrong

These 10 year olds will never, ever amount to anything useful to society. I guarantee it. There's no way you can be that much of a horrible monster at 10 years old and become a good person later on, rehab or no rehab. Therapists think too much of their own abilities.

Arrogance and Therapists go together.

Technically, they're no longer 10 years old anymore... they're around 22 years old now.

I don't think either of them would be eligable to live in society anymore, they've been without serious Social contact for so long.

[NPComplete]

I don't think either of them would be eligable to live in society anymore, they've been without serious Social contact for so long.

I agree with you here. I can't imagine what I'd be like if I'd been imprisoned from 10-22.

I doubt even a non-psychopathic murderer would be fit for reintegration into society after that.

[Dakarne]

I agree with you here. I can't imagine what I'd be like if I'd been imprisoned from 10-22.

You'd be very naive, and socially inept... though I'd imagine that they'd be socially trained before being reintegrated into society. Nothing, however can realistically prepare you for Social Situations, so I think they'll at least have a lot of adjusting to do.

[Superboy]

If these people were adults when they committed the crime, then I would agree that life sentence or death penalty would be in order. But they were 10. They were children.

The fact is, a 22 year old is a very very different person than they were at 10 years old.

I'm sorry, but being given a new life for taking someone elses is bullshit!

How is being given new identities such a gift for these guys? The courts have decided that they have been punished enough for the crime they committed, and they are being given new ID's to stop others from punishing them further. It is up to the courts to decide how much punishment is required, it is not up to the mobs.

[Dakarne]

If these people were adults when they committed the crime, then I would agree that life sentence or death penalty would be in order. But they were 10. They were children.

Children who knew it was wrong.

How is being given new identities such a gift for these guys? The courts have decided that they have been punished enough for the crime they committed, and they are being given new ID's to stop others from punishing them further. It is up to the courts to decide how much punishment is required, it is not up to the mobs.

They've prevented a young boy from even having a life

[Stark]

Protecting children is important, and is the motive behind laws that protect young offenders. These same laws put young people at risk, by allowing violent little cockmunchers to kill/rob/rape/etc them, without fear of punishment. It should be a case-by-case thing, and if a kid knowingly does something horrible to another human being, too bad. They lose, and I don't care. People who hurt CATS at 10 are fuckups at 20: what do you think happens to kids who KILL PEOPLE at 10?

Any defence based on 'they won't do it again' is bullshit. If someone killed my parents, and I killed them in revenge, I could prove I'd never kill again. That doesn't mean shit: I killed someone, and I'm going to prison for a long time.

[Superboy]

Children who knew it was wrong.

They knew it was something they would be punished for. I do not believe that 10 year olds are capable of realizing how wrong their actions were, at least not to the extent that an adult would.

They've prevented a young boy from even having a life

I can understand why you would want them to remain in prison, even though I disagree, I understand. But if they are let out of prison, what's wrong with giving them new ID's? It's simply a necessity if they are to be given freedom.

[Dakarne]

They knew it was something they would be punished for. I do not believe that 10 year olds are capable of realizing how wrong their actions were, at least not to the extent that an adult would.

I'm sorry, but when you deliberately make it look like an accident, then you probably know the full extent of what you've done.

I can understand why you would want them to remain in prison, even though I disagree, I understand. But if they are let out of prison, what's wrong with giving them new ID's? It's simply a necessity if they are to be given freedom.

The point is, that they are getting a decent life when they get out of there... they shoud end up in a 2-bit life with no prospects, of course, that is my sense of overwhelming justice speaking.

[Zero]

The way I see it, there are some people that the world's just better off without. I don't see how torturing and killing a 3 year old could be an accident or any such thing, and I don't see why these kinds of psychos should be allowed to simply go free. Some would say it's barbaric to give the death penalty to young children, and I suppose it could be seen as a bit hypocritical by some to kill children as punishment for killing a child, but I also don't quite think it's right to let such people back into society.

[SAMAS]

It really fucking scares my how psycho the British young seem to be. It seems like every week there's another group of ~10 year olds who go completely batshit and kill someone.

Here in Toronto, the police report having young offenders openly sneer at them because they know that the law shields them from any real consequences of their actions. Laws which overly favour young offenders are dangerous.

Yeah. Some kids do bad things because they don't know the consequences. Imagine what some people, kids or not, would do when they know that there aren't any.

[Dakarne]

Yeah. Some kids do bad things because they don't know the consequences. Imagine what some people, kids or not, would do when they know that there aren't any.

Hmm... Total Civil War and anarchy... we'd never have progressed this far without reasoning and laws.

[Screwball]

Yeah. Some kids do bad things because they don't know the consequences. Imagine what some people, kids or not, would do when they know that there aren't any.

Just look at the state of modern Britain to find out. If you burgle someone, and are resisted or hurt yourself, you can sue the owner of the house, and thus, be rewarded for breaking the law. People serve half sentances for doing terrible things. Age is no defence at this age either. When I was ten, I knew damn well that murder was wrong, and wouldn't have murdered somebody even if I'd had the desire to, 'cause I knew that I'd go to prison for a long time.

Dealing with the adolescant population has become one of the Governments major goals, because they have made it almost impossible for, say, teachers to control schools, or parents to effectively punish children. As an example, Labour (ick) demanded that fewer pupils be expelled from schools. The result- discipline broke down, because wrongdoers that would otherwise be removed wern't, or potential wrongdoers that were held in check by the treat of expulsion felt safe enough that they could do what they damn well pleased.

The only way to control things like this is to a) close legal loopholes that allow manifestly ridiculous cases (I climbed in their window, but they had a chest of drawers in front of it, and as a result, I fell and broke my arm. Because its their fault that it was there, its their fault I fell, so I'm entitled to compensation. And cases like this aren't uncommon), and b) come down like a ton of briks on people who break the law. A coupe of ten year olds tourture a child and leave it to die? maximum possible sentance, and ensure that they serve the full thing. Make sure that people know all about it, and that, any time something like that happens, there is a similar responce. I bet that 'yobbery' would decline fairly quicky if people were actually punished.

[Justforfun000]

I used to be very liberal minded before this and I always crowed about the "rights" of the accused and how it might not have really been their fault, or they didn't understand, or they can be cured, etc etc.

I'm changing my view quite rapidly.

It's one thing to do something by accident.

It's another thing to do something under the inflluence of a severe mind altering substance that later on you would say to yourself "what have i DONE", and even THIS is a very cautious excuse to use as a mitigating factor in my opinion....

It's also another thing to be caught up with the wrong people and coerced or threatened to do bad things for fear of your own safety and your family.

On and on there are many potential factors that could mitigate someone's punishment after committing crimes.

But this one? The senseless murder of a three year old?

I don't care that they were children. Even 10 years old is not REALLY a child in the sense that many people insist on painting in their minds. 5 and under is an extremely young age that can conceivably have a difficult time understanding many consequences. But 10 years old? I'm sorry, they are probably just as informed as the average adult in the general ways of the world when it comes to social interaction of the typical sort. A 10 year old knows what is right or wrong in the sense of violence and DEFINITELY up to murder. Anyone using the "children" excuse is being a fucking idiot that is attempting to excuse or mitigate their behavior based on an implication that being a "child" means they didn't really know what they were doing or the full consequences.

Bull - Fucking - Shit!

Anyone who thinks this is a fool.

They took a young child's LIFE. A TRUE young child. AND tortured him despicably. This poor kid will NEVER get a second chance. No new identities for him. No "rehabilitation". No SHIT!

He's dead! Forever and irrevocably dead. His death will always impact his parents and family and people here are sticking up for their right to a second chance???

Wake the fuck up! These kids were POISON. They don't DESERVE a second chance because their damn crime was abominable enough that their VICTIM will never have a second chance.

I say off with their fucking heads.

[Dakarne]

I say off with their fucking heads.

This might just be the fact that I've only just read the UPF from Shep, Fanboy and Falk...

but I instantly have images of a redhead with two murderer's skulls impaled where the sun rarely (if ever) shines.

[drachefly]

I remember being 10. I was competent to judge right from wrong then.

Heck, I remember being 8 and being competent to judge right from wrong then.

7? That's a lot tricker.

But at 10, well, that's clear. Heck, in Judaism you're a man at 13... Do we forget our fundamental nature due to the high-skill high-stress adult lives needed to maintain our modern lifestyle?
Heck, the only significant moral education I've received since I was 10 was a lesson in invalid consent I got in college, and that... doesn't come up very often.

Just because we aren't full size and don't have the needed knowledge by the age of 10, do people seriously think that 10 year olds are that incomplete as human beings that they should not be expected and required not to kill?

At 9 I was clever enough to game the system had I inclination to do so. Don't make the system set up to beg abuse. Children WILL abuse it. They aren't dumb.

[Dakarne]

At 9 I was clever enough to game the system had I inclination to do so. Don't make the system set up to beg abuse. Children WILL abuse it. They aren't dumb.

Hence the reason that I hated most of school... they were condescending bastards.