HMS Ocean vs Roman Empire at height

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-07-26 02:24pm

[/quote]Roman tactics and weapons are designed to destroy enemy shield-wall formations or to assault walled fortifications

well not entirely, they also used tactics for dealig with didorganised hordes

Initially th RM's would be unstoppable, but one ship with no logistical support, eventually they are screwed, as anything they use can't be replaced, every bullet is at a premium.

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2002-07-26 02:24pm

I dunno, but this 'one marine is equivalent to thousands of roman soldiers' is slowly reaching trekkie levels of masturbatory over-estimation of capabilities. (no insult intended)

While one group couldn't take on the whole Empire without psyochological victory (i.e., they have to convince the Romans that they [Romans] have lost or otherwise cannot win), I do point out several real wolrd examples of very small technologically superior armies taking out enormous numbers of troops from armies not prepared for it. Read up a bit on some of the battles the British fought to conquer Africa. In one battle, the Brits killed thousands of attackers while taking 7 casualties, via just-post-Civil War machine guns. Bows and arrows work well in theory, but in practice they are of little use against a trained modern army. Aside from which, they kill and main with less efficiency than modern weaponry.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-07-26 02:25pm

please ingnore the quoting there ^

Akm72 · Post by **Akm72** » 2002-07-26 04:39pm

Initially th RM's would be unstoppable, but one ship with no logistical support, eventually they are screwed, as anything they use can't be replaced, every bullet is at a premium

I accept that fuel would irreplaceable for the duration of the conflict, and that this would make the helicopters pretty useless as they'd burn the fuel supplies just too damn quickly. But the HMS Ocean should be capable of manufacturing a wide range of componants and spare parts, while they still have stocks of raw materials., but after their own stocks run out they should have enough inginuity to find some alternatives.
Finding supplies of useful metals like lead, copper and iron should not be too big problem during Roman times (hell they should be able to get quite a lot of iron by removing armour from the bodies of dead Roman soldiers, and the Romans used lead for pipes). The crew of HMS Ocean should have sufficient skill and knowledge to eventually build a small blast furnace to make steel from iron (if might take a while to get it right of course). Some simple explosives should also be within their knowhow.
With metal and explosives they should be able to replace at least some of their weapons or ammunition, even if the quality is far less than they're used to.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-07-26 05:22pm

You can't build high-tech components used in today's war machines using steel made with in your backyard blast furnace.
If you use steel or other materials of very low quality on a warship or worse yet, a helicopter, then people will have to die.
Producing the steels used to manufacture such equipment requires high-end machinery and specially trained operators for those.
No way for them to replace anything.

Akm72 · Post by **Akm72** » 2002-07-26 05:30pm

I know, but I wasn't thinking about replacing equipment parts on the helicopters or ships - they'd be no point as they'd run out of fuel before they'd run out of componants anyway.

I was thinking in terms of making weapons and maybe bullets.

Manji · Post by **Manji** » 2002-07-26 06:45pm

Well, the Romans had mines for iron ore which they then smelted into pure iron. Same for other metals. The mines were worked by slaves of course... assuming that you're prepared to accept slave labor... at least initially, as a source of raw materials, you should be able to have access to them.

As for manufacturing the right type of steel - the different types of steel are simply reflections of different iron/carbon ratios used during the manufacture. As long as you can control the ratio of carbon to iron going into your little steelworks, you can produce whatever type of steel you want.

Stainless steel is different, I think it is actually an alloy of steel with a small amount of chromium... but the vast majority of structural parts are not made of stainless steel anyway.

If they can get good steelworking capability, to the point of being able to manufacture steel pipes and containers, shaped components, screwthreads etc (should be possible, ships like Ocean typically would have some sort of machine shop), they may be able to construct a simple oil refiner (this seperates crude oil out into the various usable grades, such as various octane levels of gasoline, kerosens, deisel, lubricant oil, etc.)

Then to find somewhere to get the oil from... um, consult their maps. Not all oil has to be extensively drilled for. We are used to the idea of drilling deep for oil today, but that is because much of the oil reserviors we're currently drawing from are depleted. When they were full (as they were up until the start of the industrial age), you could dig a short distance into the ground and suddenly get a rushing "oil geyser" spurting up out of the ground - so full were the reservoirs at the time that the oil was actually under pressure. The middle east would be the place to go... the Arabian oilfields, pure and untapped, still thousands of years before the industrial revolution.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-07-27 04:46am

High-end steel is manufactured at temperatures so high you can not reach them with conventional techniques. You have to build blast furnaces that are so complex not only to construct but also to run and maintain no normal soldier could do that, additionally you need prefabricated parts to build such a blast furnace which, I guess, the Ocean ususally has not onboard.
With their machine shop they are able to make things out of prefabricated steel. They do not make steel there.
Oh and btw, extracting the carbon is not that easy, you have to reach very high temperatures to get a good iron that you can use for high-end steel.
With the things they have onboard and their knowledge of metallurgy (I know i butchered the spelling) they will be able to make steel of, say, mid-nineteenth-century qualtiy. Sure, you can use that for non-crucial components.
But it's the components which are strained the most during battle
(weapons, armor) require metal you can only produce in specialised facilites.
Setting up a primitve refinery is more realistic, however, I doubt it will produce enough to keep the ship running.

Akm72 · Post by **Akm72** » 2002-07-28 06:29am

...maintain no normal soldier could do that...

We arn't talking about ordinary soldiers, but Royal Engineers and Royal Navy Engineers. I would tend to assume that they'll have a understanding of the theoretical principles involved, but no hands-on experience (unless they're very lucky with their personnel). As such they'd be advised to keep any attempts at steel production as simple as possible, at least at first.

...I doubt it will produce enough to keep the ship running

Keeping the ship running isn't the issue, it's maintaining a weapons advantage over the Romans by manufacturing ammunition and explosives. This is after they've found a nice defendable spot to conquer, and they're focused on holding that base, not sightseeing around the ancient world.

Without refuelling, and assuming they're starting with nearly full tanks, they're limited to an operational range of no more than 8000nm. However they'd be advised avoid wasting that fuel and to try and find a land-base as close as possible to their starting position so they still have fuel to run the extremely useful food refrigerators, medical facilities, machine-tools and water condensers while they're fighting the Romans.

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2002-07-29 11:36pm

Taking the city of Rome would be relatively easy, as the Romans made it a law that no legion could enter the city. They did this because of what Julius Caesar did. The only ones in the city are the Preatorian guards, and they would be no match for modern-day soldiers. Once they took the capital, all that is left is securing the roads into the city, which shouldn't be too hard. Just put a squad on each entrence into the city, and that should be enough to detect Roman legions (that wouldn't even know what was going on anyway) coming. Once they find a legion coming towards the city, for whatever reason I do not know as they aren't allowed into the city, they just radio it and prepare to escape or attack or whatever.

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2002-08-03 05:47pm

Thank you commando joe thought no one here was a student of history.

But I like an earlier idea, drop the marines right on top of the palace and say to the emporer that jupiter has become displeased with him(then kill him or force him to hand over empire), or that jupiter is so pleased with him that they are going to bring him to dionyssus(or his roman equivelent) ship to reward him, and that they will take over the empire.

Then fortify rome so that any pesky power hungry generals won't be able to break into rome without heavy siege machinery. Which the average legion will lack.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-08-03 07:09pm

Fortify Rome with 850 men? Are you mad?

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2002-08-03 08:21pm

Howedar wrote:Fortify Rome with 850 men? Are you mad?

Almost but not quite.

Try this though, fortify rome with the men so it would take siege equipment to bust in. Then pull ocean up to the coast, and if anyone attacks you hit them with the missles from the oceans and if they are to close to rome to hit them with the missles safley the marines can take them out.

Akm72 · Post by **Akm72** » 2002-08-05 03:38am

Straha wrote:
Howedar wrote:Fortify Rome with 850 men? Are you mad?
Almost but not quite.

Try this though, fortify rome with the men so it would take siege equipment to bust in. Then pull ocean up to the coast, and if anyone attacks you hit them with the missles from the oceans and if they are to close to rome to hit them with the missles safley the marines can take them out.

I agree with Howedar on this one, 850 men is not enough to hold Rome for any period of time. Also if the Roman armies ever breach the defences, the Marines lose a lot of their advantages when fighting in close confined city streets.
Also what missiles does Ocean have? From memory they have 3 x Phalanx automatic 20mm guns, and a few manually-operated twin-30mm guns. They could fire TOW missiles from their Lynx helicopters, but TOW has anti-tank warheads, which are pretty useless against massed infantry formations. You'd also have to use a lot of aviation fuel to operate the helicopters.

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2002-08-06 02:59am

There wouldn't be an assault, because like I said, no legion could enter the city of Rome. The only soldiers allowed in are the Praetorian guard. Maybe the 850 Royal Marines could replace or be an addition to these elite soldiers under the new ruler of the Roman Empire and do an even better job of enforcing this law.

Manji · Post by **Manji** » 2002-08-06 02:52pm

850 Marines would certainly be enough to hold the city. Don't forget that one marine is worth dozens or hundreds of Roman soldiers. Even if a marine was worth only ten romans, that would still mean that it would take 8,500 men to retake the city.

If, as is more realistic, a marine is worth 80-100 Roman soldiers, then the numbers required to defeat them become astronomical: 68,000 - 85,000.

Then there's the fear factor - morale in the Roman ranks would be at an all time low. Against such new, unknown, and obviously far far superior technology, many soldiers might get cold feet about going into battle against them, and flee.

Akm72 · Post by **Akm72** » 2002-08-06 03:18pm

Manji wrote:850 Marines would certainly be enough to hold the city. Don't forget that one marine is worth dozens or hundreds of Roman soldiers. Even if a marine was worth only ten romans, that would still mean that it would take 8,500 men to retake the city.

If, as is more realistic, a marine is worth 80-100 Roman soldiers, then the numbers required to defeat them become astronomical: 68,000 - 85,000.

Then there's the fear factor - morale in the Roman ranks would be at an all time low. Against such new, unknown, and obviously far far superior technology, many soldiers might get cold feet about going into battle against them, and flee.

Within the confines of a city, the ratio of Marines to Legionaries is going to be MUCH smaller. And the Romans can both afford to lose more men, and will be WILLING to lose more than the Marines to retake their capital city.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-08-06 03:38pm

Let's say, for a moment, they hold Rome. At this point, even if the Legions all declare their allegiance to the new arrivals, I give them a year, tops, before dying.

Rome's political system would eat them all alive.

Akm72 · Post by **Akm72** » 2002-08-06 04:01pm

Good point

Though there's nothing like a gun for cutting through the political BS (it worked for Stalin at least).

The Marines might have some tricks up there sleeves to get the 'mob' on their side which would improve their chances of surviving; They could use their knowledge to improve the medical services and provide better sanitation, and probably reduce the infant mortality rate. That'd be quite a vote winner.

Manji · Post by **Manji** » 2002-08-06 04:13pm

Akm72 wrote:Good point

Though there's nothing like a gun for cutting through the political BS (it worked for Stalin at least).

The Marines might have some tricks up there sleeves to get the 'mob' on their side which would improve their chances of surviving; They could use their knowledge to improve the medical services and provide better sanitation, and probably reduce the infant mortality rate. That'd be quite a vote winner.

Most ships have onboard movie theaters... if they could spare a projector and dig out a huge screen from somewhere they could start showing movies in the Coliseum or the various theaters and amphitheaters in the city.

That would have the mob slack-jawed with amazement and wonder. Those gladiatorial games would become uber-passe in a single day.

They could also set up televisions around the city to show the surrender ceremony.

Of course all this would require power. And since Rome has naturally got absolutely zero in the form of electricity supply, this means portable generators would have to be used, and these eat up fuel... so there again the ugly problem of the lack of resupply may raise it's ugly head.

Akm72 · Post by **Akm72** » 2002-08-06 04:54pm

I wonder what the Romans would think of the film 'Gladiator' by Ridley Scott

If the Marines get the Romans eating out of their hands, they could probably get to work setting up some sort of small-scale oil refinary or finding some other way of generating electrical power (solar power maybe, or a water-powered generator?)

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-08-06 05:45pm

Manji wrote:850 Marines would certainly be enough to hold the city. Don't forget that one marine is worth dozens or hundreds of Roman soldiers. Even if a marine was worth only ten romans, that would still mean that it would take 8,500 men to retake the city.

If, as is more realistic, a marine is worth 80-100 Roman soldiers, then the numbers required to defeat them become astronomical: 68,000 - 85,000.

Then there's the fear factor - morale in the Roman ranks would be at an all time low. Against such new, unknown, and obviously far far superior technology, many soldiers might get cold feet about going into battle against them, and flee.

My home, a city of about 40,000 people, has a circumfrence of very roughly 8 miles. To fortify my city, assuming one spread those 850 men equally around the city, they'd be over 500 feet apart. At its height around 200AD, Rome had over a million inhabitants.

Now how exactly were 850 men going to make a shread of difference?

Azeron · Post by **Azeron** » 2002-09-18 01:50am

ohh sorry for missing this.

I think Rome would win. Lets face it, rome was just so much cooler than the brits are today. they wil do something liek buy them off by giving them hot slave chicks with every hole eager to please.

Before you know it, the romans would control the ship, and they would start reverse engineering the tech. with the compliant support of the new slave owning sailors (sailors are really pliant to the whims of a beautiful women)

jenat-lai · Post by **jenat-lai** » 2002-09-18 06:16am

I would get a loud megaphone, change the frequency on it or something to make it boomy and fly a single helicopter over rome saying "The god so and so (If I have a greek speaker on board, a Greek god, and all of this in greek) demands that you give up your city. Any show of resistance or thought of resistance will be met with fire from the heavans! Then fly away. An hour later randomly unleash a few heavy, longrange artilliliary arms or helicopter gunship runs on random parts of the city, and land a squad outside the emperors palace. Empty the palace and take Emperor away on a helicopter in full view of the population (Of course if he's dead it may be a problem... so trying to keep him alive and killing all his bodyguards may be a problem, but a few snipers should be okay with that, and a good insertion team to extract Cesar). Go away again. At night have a few hellicopters up with powerfull searchlights and again more "I am the god so and so, The empire of Rome is mine!" audio broardcasts, perhaps even a few well placed missiles or 30mm gunfire on various military areas AND TEMPLES OF OTHER GODS (all for the show). All this time Ocean has been anchored out there past the horizon line, as inactave as possible to conserve fuel. Now install one of the higher ranking guys into imperial palace, and have him wearing the Emperors garb, with a full team as body guards. If anyone tries to uprize a few mortar strikes on various temples, houses and such. It's hard to be beaten by an army who thinks you are a god/emperor. Although not technically defeating it, It's the best chance of survival for the time displaced force I'd think, and I think it'd make them have a comfortable life too... One God, and the spirit warriors of the heavans, all having decended from the sky to rule Rome. Don't know what to do with the boat though...

jenat-lai · Post by **jenat-lai** » 2002-09-18 06:29am

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:There wouldn't be an assault, because like I said, no legion could enter the city of Rome. The only soldiers allowed in are the Praetorian guard. Maybe the 850 Royal Marines could replace or be an addition to these elite soldiers under the new ruler of the Roman Empire and do an even better job of enforcing this law.

And that... As in don't kill all the praetorian Guard... once they think they are being commanded by a real live god, then who knows how much loyalty the new "Mere mortals, guarding the flesh apparation of the new emperor god" praetorian guard might display.