A thread for Wong's soapbox. Women in the Bible.

[Magnetic]

I'm currently in a debate on the bibleforums, a thread called, "is the Bible/God sexist?"

Here's the link: ++http://bibleforums.org/forum/showthread.php?t=37543

Some interesting posts:

No, the Bible is not sexist. God is infinitely wise, and He made men and women exactly how we should be.

If there were no differences between men and women, then God wouldn't have made women in the first place. The world would be full of men with no women.

I happen to love how God made me as a woman, and I also happen to love that God made men to take care of us and protect us.

God knows far better than any human what is right for us. He is perfect. And His Word is not going to be anything other than what He wants us to know and understand.

Another person mentioned about some of the 'good women' stories of the bible, and I simply said:

My opinion is, if the Bible isn't sexists, it surely tapdances close to that line. A few 'nice instances' of a few women given a bigger role than normal doesn't balance the scales.

If you think the Bible is sexist (or close to it), then do you believe God is sexist (or close to it)?

I think that we (man in general) misunderstand, misinterpret, or overstate God on many occations, and I think this is one of those cases.

What do you mean? If the Bible is God's Word, then what are we misunderstanding?

Well, you have to ask the question, from where did the cultural stance, that of women being property, thus less than men, come from? Paul choosing to add in burndens upon women, did that come from God, or from the way their culture was established? And if it DID come from God (not some odd cultural code), then it is understandable why women from outside the Christian faith see it as a 'black mark' of that faith, and the vaste majority of women in our churches today are in jeapordy!

Paul didn't choose to add burdens to women. The Bible isn't Paul's book, therefore he didn't choose to add anything, God did. Of course the Bible will be seen as sexist outside of Christianity. The Bible is seen as a lot of things outside the faith. Fact is, Women owe a lot of the improvments in their conditions to Christianity, because the thought of having just one wife, and serving her like Christ did the church was a crazy idea back then.

If you believe that Paul was taking direct dictation from God and not speaking from the culture of the day, and his own opinion [that is]. Like it or not, if someone is over another, whereas one person (women) has more restraints on them, which has been discussed many times, and is placed by Paul into his writings, then there IS no equality between men and women. Regardless of how much one may love their wife, he is over them, they are subservient to him. She should be quite in the church, wear a covering on her head, and be saved through child birth.

I never said there was equality. Equality will never exist and it SHOULDN'T exist. Men are different then women, women are different than men. Each have different roles. Different strengths, different weaknesses. Different needs, and different wants. Equality searches to satisfy all of those the same way in both men and women.

Some examples of differences (though this is changing as of late in the US):

Tomorow, I turn 18. I have to register for the draft. Women, how ever, do not have to do such a thing.

I cannot bare a child or be a mother in anyway, but women can do that (obviously).

I am supposed to lead my wife spiritually in our marriage. Women are supposed to be submissive to their husbands.

I am supposed to be willing to die for my wife, women are not called to do such a thing for their husbands.

It is not equal at all. It shouldn't be, it can't be, and it never will be. Equality does not equal peace. Now, equality on the professional level, I am all for. I think women should be able to have the same job as me (a few exceptions, but anyway). Women are just as much saved as men are. That's one equality. But the roles of the two sexes are most definitely different. Any successful culture is characterized by defined gender roles. Otherwise, that culture would never make it in this world.

Having different roles has nothing to do with biblical times women being basically property. And correct, there is no equality between men and women. It just happens to be that in the Bible, the women had more rules placed upon them. The thing about "men being willing to die for the wife", that is a circumstance that may never occur. Women being silent, covering their heads, being basically property was a common everyday thing. And probably continued for centuries down through the ages as these cultural 'laws', being cannonized into the Bible, causing men to be dominant over their wives as they kept them subservient.

Men treating their wives in a godly way is not a circumstance, it is just as much a law. And in reality, that whole bit about women being property shouldn't be a problem either. Ultimately, everything I have is not mine. It is not mine, in reality. Everything is God's, but I have stewardship over it. This is the same with my wife. Sure, she is my wife. I would not treat her like she his just some article of mine. I'd treat her like she is God's gift, because that's what she IS.

I'm getting tired of the debate.

[Darth Wong]

No, the Bible is not sexist. God is infinitely wise, and He made men and women exactly how we should be.

If there were no differences between men and women, then God wouldn't have made women in the first place. The world would be full of men with no women.

I happen to love how God made me as a woman, and I also happen to love that God made men to take care of us and protect us.

God knows far better than any human what is right for us. He is perfect. And His Word is not going to be anything other than what He wants us to know and understand.

Notice how none of those statements actually refute the accusation that the Bible is sexist. And the way men and women were "made" has nothing to do with things like Paul's statement that women should remain silent in the church and not have authority over men. There is absolutely nothing in a woman's biological structure which precludes her having short hair, speaking up in church, or being in a leadership position.

If you think the Bible is sexist (or close to it), then do you believe God is sexist (or close to it)?

If I were a Christian, I would say that I believe Paul is definitely sexist, as were the ancient Hebrew priests who wrote the Old Testament. Anyone who treats the Bible as literal truth is an idiot. Even Christians are under no obligation to treat it as literal truth.

What do you mean? If the Bible is God's Word, then what are we misunderstanding?

Any reasonable Christian will say that at most, the Bible is God's Word as translated and handed down through generations of human assholes. Ancient, primitive, ignorant, sexist, violent human assholes. Did this person never play the telephone game? Of course, as a non-Christian I would simply replace "translated" with "made up". But either way the idea is the same.

Paul didn't choose to add burdens to women. The Bible isn't Paul's book, therefore he didn't choose to add anything, God did. Of course the Bible will be seen as sexist outside of Christianity. The Bible is seen as a lot of things outside the faith. Fact is, Women owe a lot of the improvments in their conditions to Christianity, because the thought of having just one wife, and serving her like Christ did the church was a crazy idea back then.

What kind of moron thinks that the Paul's epistles wrote themselves, with no real influence from Paul?

I never said there was equality. Equality will never exist and it SHOULDN'T exist. Men are different then women, women are different than men. Each have different roles. Different strengths, different weaknesses. Different needs, and different wants. Equality searches to satisfy all of those the same way in both men and women.

It's interesting how this idiot tries to replace "equality of treatment and rights" with "equality of biology". It is a common strawman distortion used by liars and fucktards.

I am supposed to lead my wife spiritually in our marriage. Women are supposed to be submissive to their husbands.

I love it when an imbecile takes the thing he's trying to prove and states it as if it were a fact.

It is not equal at all. It shouldn't be, it can't be, and it never will be. Equality does not equal peace. Now, equality on the professional level, I am all for. I think women should be able to have the same job as me (a few exceptions, but anyway). Women are just as much saved as men are. That's one equality. But the roles of the two sexes are most definitely different. Any successful culture is characterized by defined gender roles. Otherwise, that culture would never make it in this world.

Interestingly enough, America has become the world's most prosperous nation while having one of the world's most gender-neutral legal systems. Kind of blows a hole in this imbecile's claim, doesn't it? But perhaps he would prefer to live in Saudi Arabia, where his views are more widely accepted.

Men treating their wives in a godly way is not a circumstance, it is just as much a law. And in reality, that whole bit about women being property shouldn't be a problem either. Ultimately, everything I have is not mine. It is not mine, in reality. Everything is God's, but I have stewardship over it. This is the same with my wife. Sure, she is my wife. I would not treat her like she his just some article of mine. I'd treat her like she is God's gift, because that's what she IS.

Great, so instead of being his wife's owner, he is his wife's custodian

[NPComplete]

Men treating their wives in a godly way is not a circumstance, it is just as much a law. And in reality, that whole bit about women being property shouldn't be a problem either. Ultimately, everything I have is not mine. It is not mine, in reality. Everything is God's, but I have stewardship over it. This is the same with my wife.

"Ok, so a women is property. But what does 'property' really mean, anyway?"

Jeez.

[Magnetic]

It's interesting how this idiot tries to replace "equality of treatment and rights" with "equality of biology".

I may have to use that. Good thought!

[Magnetic]

More from Fubajuba....

I used the line about her [then] not being property, but he being her custodian.

No, I am her steward. I am to take care of her and treat her right while I have watch over her. I am supposed to make her better in every way than the way she was when I recieved her.

What does that mean, "I am her steward"? I would think that it is your responsibiblity to treat her well, thus you should say, "I am being a good steward over the way I treat my wife". By the way, it is a VERY good thing to treat your wife well. But I don't believe that you are supposed to "make her better" as if she (or any woman) is somehow flawed without a guy to keep her in line.

[NPComplete]

I am supposed to make her better in every way than the way she was when I recieved her.

Keyword 'received'.

Never in my life have I 'received' a friend, or child, or business contact etc.

I've 'received' many packages, hot meals, pairs of socks, and Nintendo game systems (well, 3).

[Darth Wong]

He makes a woman sound like a pet.

[Rye]

That's pretty much what she is. She's a "help meet" made because Adam was lonely. This guy sounds like he's just looking after a shop or dog or something for the weekend.

[LadyTevar]

I'd like to point out that most of the New Testement is Paul's Letters to various churches and to his followers like Timothy. So, how could they NOT be Written by Paul?

Fucktard... Has he never read the header in front of each one of those, or do the New Versions of the Bible leave them off? "First Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Corinthians" "The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Colossians"

Oh, and just so people know, it's "The Revalation of ST JOHN THE DIVINE"

[wolveraptor]

This guy can't even see that a woman is a fully functioning human. Being nice to your wife is not the same as treating her like a fucking baby, who can't make decisions for herself.

[Justforfun000]

What really gets under my skin is that this unbelievably primitive form of thinking is literally brainwashed into these young adults. There is little more that scares me in this world then people with fervent beliefs. Belief is by respect of its nature, a very subjective thing. How people get to the point of stating that their subjectivity is reality whether other people recognize it or not is scary. I was guilty of this myself in early 90's when I was about 20. What's sad is that I simply did not understand how to critically think. It's the biggest problem with schools. The rote method kills your ability to discern and evaluate. We seriously need an overhaul of the world education system.

[Magnetic]

I'd like to point out that most of the New Testement is Paul's Letters to various churches and to his followers like Timothy. So, how could they NOT be Written by Paul?

Fucktard... Has he never read the header in front of each one of those, or do the New Versions of the Bible leave them off? "First Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Corinthians" "The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Colossians"

Oh, and just so people know, it's "The Revalation of ST JOHN THE DIVINE"

You know what they say about that, LadyTevar. . . . . "Paul's words were the inspired words of God, as God gave the words to say to Paul."

So far, as of this time, there hasn't been any response to my last post there, same as the one I posted on this thread a few post above. I'm sure there will be some sort of post because, you know, . . . no one wants to admit they're wrong.

[Dakarne]

There's only three ways I think women are unequal to men.

Simple Reason #1: Physically smaller, and weaker, which shouldn't be held against anybody, since violence is irrelavent.

Simple Reason #2: Ability to bear children... important for very obvious reasons.

Simple Reason #3: I'm only attracted to Women...

[Mange]

I'd like to point out that most of the New Testement is Paul's Letters to various churches and to his followers like Timothy. So, how could they NOT be Written by Paul?

Fucktard... Has he never read the header in front of each one of those, or do the New Versions of the Bible leave them off? "First Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Corinthians" "The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Colossians"

Oh, and just so people know, it's "The Revalation of ST JOHN THE DIVINE"

You know what they say about that, LadyTevar. . . . . "Paul's words were the inspired words of God, as God gave the words to say to Paul."

So far, as of this time, there hasn't been any response to my last post there, same as the one I posted on this thread a few post above. I'm sure there will be some sort of post because, you know, . . . no one wants to admit they're wrong.

Strange that it would be the words of God as Paul in Romans 3:5 says that "I speak as a man":

But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

[Magnetic]

I'd like to point out that most of the New Testement is Paul's Letters to various churches and to his followers like Timothy. So, how could they NOT be Written by Paul?

Fucktard... Has he never read the header in front of each one of those, or do the New Versions of the Bible leave them off? "First Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Corinthians" "The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Colossians"

Oh, and just so people know, it's "The Revalation of ST JOHN THE DIVINE"

You know what they say about that, LadyTevar. . . . . "Paul's words were the inspired words of God, as God gave the words to say to Paul."

So far, as of this time, there hasn't been any response to my last post there, same as the one I posted on this thread a few post above. I'm sure there will be some sort of post because, you know, . . . no one wants to admit they're wrong.

Strange that it would be the words of God as Paul in Romans 3:5 says that "I speak as a man":

But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

Curious, isn't it?

[Civil War Man]

I think this Fubajuba's wet dream is to have a society that works similarly to a lion pride. The guys just sit around like the lazy assholes they are while the women go out and do all the work providing for and raising the family.

[wolveraptor]

Oh, but that's what every male secretly wants. A life of violence, gluttony, and sex every 15 minutes. Oooooh yeah.

[Magnetic]

You guessed it. A couple more "winners" here:

In my response:

What does that mean, "I am her steward"? I would think that it is your responsibiblity to treat her well, thus you should say, "I am being a good steward over the way I treat my wife". By the way, it is a VERY good thing to treat your wife well. But I don't believe that you are supposed to "make her better" as if she (or any woman) is somehow flawed without a guy to keep her in line.


Oh, the next part of this response isn't directed to the above quote.

Just wanted to throw this out there: "Equality of treatment and rights" is obviously not the same as "equality of biology". Of course, there isn't equity in biology, but there sure better be in treatment and rights.

You are mistaken. A woman is flawed and is definitely complimented by a man. Likewise, a man is flawed and is defnitely complimented by a woman. I'm sorry, but this is true and factual. If you don't think so, argue it with science which has proven it is so.

How do I mean flawed? Simple. We are not compitent in all areas. Men and women are mentally and emotionally different. They thnk and priocess information differently. Please don't anyone site exceptions to this general rule - not interested.

Now this is scientific fact, which finally caught up to simple observance. Now I am not claiming one cannot survive without the other. That isn't the argument here - so please dont' go there. They compliment eachother when working as a team. Simple truth. Thus, alone they are flawed in that they are not at their best - man and woman both.

Now if that is somehow, in some strange way s*xist, oh well. But it isn't in the least.

And a quote that should go into "Fundies say the darndest things":

IF there is a God and he wants to put men over women he has every right. If he wanted women over men he'd also have every right. From what I understand, none of us deserve to live so we need to humble ourselves.

I said to him:

Oh. ... PLEASE....... If YOU want to burden yourself with life long condemnation because you may have lied, or cheated, or looked lustfully at a woman/man, or whatever, then that is YOUR problem.

Unbelievable.

[Justforfun000]

That site is a waste of time. I just looked at all the "rules" about posting, even in their SCIENCE section:

This forum is for the discussion of Science and how it may pertain to God, and the Bible. Since this is a Christian message board atheistic opinions will not be tolerated.

This is not a forum for heated arguments. Debating is fine as long as there is proper conduct.. If you have the urge to disprove the Bible then you will be better off somewhere else.

Obviously the whole concept of "debate" flies right over their head.

This is not a forum for discussing Scientology, or Christian Science. Creation Science will be accepted if it does not become too argumentative. This also applies to main stream science as well.

so even if MAINSTREAM science arguments become too heated (translation: If the Christians are losing their side of the debate) then it's terminated?

Don't waste your time on these idiots!

[unigolyn]

You are mistaken. A woman is flawed and is definitely complimented by a man. Likewise, a man is flawed and is defnitely complimented by a woman. I'm sorry, but this is true and factual. If you don't think so, argue it with science which has proven it is so.

True and factual! After rigorous poking with real and factual science poles!

Wow. 'You are wrong. I believe the opposite. Hence it is true'

Why on earth are you arguing with people like that?

How do I mean flawed? Simple. We are not compitent in all areas. Men and women are mentally and emotionally different. They thnk and priocess information differently. Please don't anyone site exceptions to this general rule - not interested.

So there's exceptions to the rule, like, say two men differing from the 'norm' fixing each other's flaws?

Why would God create exceptions to his 'rule' of yin/yang complementation?

Now this is scientific fact, which finally caught up to simple observance. Now I am not claiming one cannot survive without the other. That isn't the argument here - so please dont' go there. They compliment eachother when working as a team. Simple truth. Thus, alone they are flawed in that they are not at their best - man and woman both.

Again with the scientific facts. Seriously, these people seem to function on the level of four-year-olds:

"Why can't you come outside?"
"Because Mommy said so, so please don't go there."

Now if that is somehow, in some strange way s*xist, oh well. But it isn't in the least.

Sex is a dirty word? As in male or female, not coitus? :O

IF there is a God and he wants to put men over women he has every right. If he wanted women over men he'd also have every right. From what I understand, none of us deserve to live so we need to humble ourselves.

Wait, none of us deserve to live? But God created us! We're Lords over all of Earth and all the beasts that roam the fields and the abominations in the seas, which God also created? But we're flawed crap that doesn't deserve life? What the hell is God, a talentless teenager writing bad Goth poetry that his low self esteem declares unworthy?

[Dakarne]

Okay... so for the Woman listed in the OP:

No, the Bible is not sexist. God is infinitely wise, and He made men and women exactly how we should be.

Speaking from a mainstream science perspective... Evolution did that for us.

If there were no differences between men and women, then God wouldn't have made women in the first place. The world would be full of men with no women.

Are you sure that it wouldn't be Women and no Men?

I happen to love how God made me as a woman, and I also happen to love that God made men to take care of us and protect us.

Isn't that nice, our job is to protect you? I don't object... but it's not exactly like a well placed kick from a pair of high-heels won't render a rapist sterile for life.

God knows far better than any human what is right for us. He is perfect. And His Word is not going to be anything other than what He wants us to know and understand.

Hmmm... Ignorance is bliss, he's better than us, and he's smarter than us? Not likely.


And now for the morally bankrupt and sexist bastards... also known as Whispering Grace and Fubajuba.

If you think the Bible is sexist (or close to it), then do you believe God is sexist (or close to it)?

Well, the Bible is the Word of God. And of course, the Bible is Sexist.

What do you mean? If the Bible is God's Word, then what are we misunderstanding?

Not sure, could be the fact that we have a more evolved set of Morals than God.

Paul didn't choose to add burdens to women. The Bible isn't Paul's book, therefore he didn't choose to add anything, God did. Of course the Bible will be seen as sexist outside of Christianity. The Bible is seen as a lot of things outside the faith. Fact is, Women owe a lot of the improvments in their conditions to Christianity, because the thought of having just one wife, and serving her like Christ did the church was a crazy idea back then.

Do they? I always see the Feminists as people who evolved beyond the Bible. This guy should see that. And the one wife thing? When did we start treating women like equals? 20-30 years ago? (I personally can't remember, just in case I get this detail wrong... I've only been alive for the past 17)

never said there was equality. Equality will never exist and it SHOULDN'T exist. Men are different then women, women are different than men. Each have different roles. Different strengths, different weaknesses. Different needs, and different wants. Equality searches to satisfy all of those the same way in both men and women.

Hmm... Equality shouldn't exist? SEXIST BASTARD!

Sure we're different, but we should be given Equal Opportunities and Equal Rights.

Some examples of differences (though this is changing as of late in the US):

Tomorow, I turn 18. I have to register for the draft. Women, how ever, do not have to do such a thing.

I don't even think there should be a Draft.

I cannot bare a child or be a mother in anyway, but women can do that (obviously).

No, but you can care for and raise a child.

I am supposed to lead my wife spiritually in our marriage. Women are supposed to be submissive to their husbands.

Women, submissive, husbands?

I also imagine that not being submissive is dealt with by "Beatings"...

Sick, Bigoted, Sexist, Bastard.

I am supposed to be willing to die for my wife, women are not called to do such a thing for their husbands.

Of course, you deserve to die with the Sexism you have shown.

Men treating their wives in a godly way is not a circumstance, it is just as much a law.

So will you kill all of her children because she won't let some slaves go?

And in reality, that whole bit about women being property shouldn't be a problem either.

Property? So you're admitting that you're a heartless bigoted Bastard?

Ultimately, everything I have is not mine. It is not mine, in reality. Everything is God's, but I have stewardship over it.

So you have Stewardship over your wife? Isn't that a bit... oh I don't know, Sexist, and will never, ever land you a girlfriend.

This is the same with my wife. Sure, she is my wife. I would not treat her like she his just some article of mine. I'd treat her like she is God's gift, because that's what she IS.

She isn't a gift, she's a partner, a significant other. You do not own your fucking wife!

And I can tell why Magnetic is getting tired of this debate... I'm going to give the Forum a look at.

[unigolyn]

Also, I love how that one font of wisdom said he's not a custodian, he's a steward.

I know these people deny the existance of dinosauria, but I never thought they also shunned thesauria. The words are fucking synonyms.

[Magnetic]

And now I get a condescending reply . . . . . from this 'loving Christian', and a bad argument to boot.

When EarlyCall said:

You are mistaken. A woman is flawed and is definitely complimented by a man. Likewise, a man is flawed and is defnitely complimented by a woman. I'm sorry, but this is true and factual. If you don't think so, argue it with science which has proven it is so.

How do I mean flawed? Simple. We are not compitent in all areas. Men and women are mentally and emotionally different. They thnk and priocess information differently. Please don't anyone site exceptions to this general rule - not interested.

Now this is scientific fact, which finally caught up to simple observance. Now I am not claiming one cannot survive without the other. That isn't the argument here - so please dont' go there. They compliment eachother when working as a team. Simple truth. Thus, alone they are flawed in that they are not at their best - man and woman both.

Now if that is somehow, in some strange way s*xist, oh well. But it isn't in the least.

I said:

I'm sorry, but. . . . . . . I gotta know. What are these 'flaws'? I need scientific examples (and possibly documentation).

THIS was the response:

Umm, let me see now. You didn't like the term flawed, and yet the rest of the post explained what I was saying. So you come back with this? I was quite sufficiently clear in what I was saying to get my point across. If you cannot grasp it inspite of that, sorry. No further explanation if forthcoming. As well, if you haven't heard of these latest reports from the medical community, sorry bout that too.

How would you respond to that? . . . . . . Other than the fact that, "if you haven't heard of these latest reports......." is not a valid argument.

[unigolyn]

Option A: stop arguing with that guy and go do something more constructive, like wrestling a petrified tree.

Option B: feign a slightly apologetic tone and try to get him to elaborate on the flaws (it's obvious he's pulling the 'medical community' out of his ass). If you get him to talk about any details about behavior or emotional acuity, or ANYTHING specific and reality-based, fact check his ass and find something with wide medical consensus that contradicts it.

Personally, I'd go with A, since even if you do trap him, he's just gonna refute it by saying 'my bullshit works in mysterious ways'.

[Magnetic]

Well, I did neither A nor B. I kinda 'blew up' a bit. As much as is allowed on a christian forum. I made reference to the section of his/her 'scientific fact':

"We are not compitent in all areas. Men and women are mentally and emotionally different. They thnk and priocess information differently."

In what way??? . . . . . Duh!! Or do you prefer to make vague generalized statements and expect people to say, "Ohhhh!!"???

BTW, "if you haven't heard of these latest reports from the medical community..." is not an argument either!!


You know what, I give up.

If you want to live in your 'Victorian' way, then by all means do so. I plan to treat my wife with respect and not expect her loyal submission. I have a dog for that,. . . . .. . .but you know what, I don't even expect it from my dog.

Oh well, I guess ultimately I'll be taking your choice, A.