Students get around school's IT restrictions.

[DrkHelmet]

Since it's a felony I'd imagine it being four years from the date it was reported to law enforcement.

And if it was never reported?

Then the clock isn't started.

Ok, just to make sure I have this straight. If, in the event that I incriminated myself, it was suddenly reported, I could be charged? So if I wait 30 years, and tell nieces/nephews/whatever "blah blah blah computer tampering." They could suddenly report it and it's still within the statute of limitations?

Is there a seperate statute of limitations on how long they have to report it?

[Kamakazie Sith]

Really, the people who should be feeling the heat here are the school's IT staff. The students deserve a slap on the wrist. I noticed something similar at my high school: when people started sending popup messages via Windows 2000's NET SEND command, the computer administrator passed a new (and very hard to enforce) rule: no more NET SEND use. The simple answer would be to turn off the messenger service on the machines, and this would have ended the problem. But instead, rather than looking to fix the problem, he passed a rule to cover for his incompetence, which other teachers had to enforce.

The students deserve a slap on the wrist, even though they violated the law, which doesn't make any mention of you needing to have a competent IT team?

If you don't have any locks on your doors is it still burgulary? Yes. If you don't have any computer safeguards is it still illegal? Yes.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Ok, just to make sure I have this straight. If, in the event that I incriminated myself, it was suddenly reported, I could be charged? So if I wait 30 years, and tell nieces/nephews/whatever "blah blah blah computer tampering." They could suddenly report it and it's still within the statute of limitations?

Is there a seperate statute of limitations on how long they have to report it?

I'd recommend doing some research into the laws of your state. State laws can be similar, but they can also be different. Your statute of limitations could be defined differently.

[DrkHelmet]

I'd recommend doing some research into the laws of your state. State laws can be similar, but they can also be different. Your statute of limitations could be defined differently.

K, will do. Now, back to the subject at hand:

This isn't like leaving your door unlocked. It's like locking the doors and then mailing duplicate keys to every person in town. Did they break the law when they went in? Yes, but you were still stupid as hell for sending keys to everyone.

I submit that, yes, the law was broken. I also submit that there is a better solution than felony charges against a bunch of students.

[sketerpot]

The students deserve a slap on the wrist, even though they violated the law, which doesn't make any mention of you needing to have a competent IT team?

Sure, they violated the law---but looking at things pragmatically, they should get a slap on the wrist and a stern lecture and someone should tell the IT team to get off their asses and earn their pay.

Punishing the students severely led to a bunch of bad publicity, and is likely to be counterproductive. The deterrent effect wouldn't be nearly as effective as fixing the security problems, and involving the justice system in this probably costs more money than fixing the security problems. It's not cost-effective.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I'd recommend doing some research into the laws of your state. State laws can be similar, but they can also be different. Your statute of limitations could be defined differently.

K, will do. Now, back to the subject at hand:

This isn't like leaving your door unlocked. It's like locking the doors and then mailing duplicate keys to every person in town. Did they break the law when they went in? Yes, but you were still stupid as hell for sending keys to everyone.

I submit that, yes, the law was broken. I also submit that there is a better solution than felony charges against a bunch of students.

I agree, the school was stupid. However, they did not make the choice for the students to take this action. The students made the choice to violate the law, which you admit was broken.

When the law is broken the punishment is usually what is defined for that specific law. In this case it's a felony. Which will most likely be reduced.

Also I have to comment on this;

"There are a lot of adults who go 10 miles over the speed limit or don't come to a complete stop at a stop sign. They know it's not right, but they expect a fine'' not a felony offense, he said.

Of course they expect a fine. Because that's what the punishment is for speeding.

[Kamakazie Sith]

The students deserve a slap on the wrist, even though they violated the law, which doesn't make any mention of you needing to have a competent IT team?

Sure, they violated the law---but looking at things pragmatically, they should get a slap on the wrist and a stern lecture and someone should tell the IT team to get off their asses and earn their pay.

I have a feeling that this IT team is earning its pay. However, you're right they do need to get off their ass.

Punishing the students severely led to a bunch of bad publicity, and is likely to be counterproductive. The deterrent effect wouldn't be nearly as effective as fixing the security problems, and involving the justice system in this probably costs more money than fixing the security problems. It's not cost-effective.

The deterrent is kind of like the rules here, specifically the last sentence of IR3;

If you find a loophole in our rules, don't be too pleased with yourself because we will simply close it, and then shove it up your ass.

In this case the kids found holes in the security, and now it's being shoved up their ass. Also, the hole will probably be closed.

[DrkHelmet]

I agree, the school was stupid. However, they did not make the choice for the students to take this action. The students made the choice to violate the law, which you admit was broken.

I do admit that. In fact, it was, according to the PA statute that was listed. I am just saying there is a better solution.

When the law is broken the punishment is usually what is defined for that specific law. In this case it's a felony. Which will most likely be reduced.

I hope so. Felony charges are absurd.

Also I have to comment on this;

"There are a lot of adults who go 10 miles over the speed limit or don't come to a complete stop at a stop sign. They know it's not right, but they expect a fine'' not a felony offense, he said.

Of course they expect a fine. Because that's what the punishment is for speeding.

Well, most expect to get away with it . No one is arguing that the punishment isn't technically legal. It is. However, the punishment still doesn't fit the crime once extenuating circumstances are figured in. Slap em on the wrist and take their computers away.

[Kamakazie Sith]

You have to understand what they actually did here. They took someone elses property and violated it. They purposefully disobeyed the rules. However, unless I've read the article wrong, some are getting felony charges because they spied on others.

*Well, it seems that all of them are. Whatever, it won't hold in court. They're just being stupid now. It's more of a show than anything else at this point.

[DrkHelmet]

You have to understand what they actually did here. They took someone elses property and violated it. They purposefully disobeyed the rules. However, unless I've read the article wrong, some are getting felony charges because they spied on others.

Maybe I misread it. I thought they were all getting felony charges. I'll read it again.

Ok, it appears from the wording of the article, that all 13 were involved in this spying. It is kinda vague though. In that case, then I guess the charges are warranted. I assumed that only some were spying and that the rest were downloading IM tools and porn.

My apologies.

[Kamakazie Sith]

You have to understand what they actually did here. They took someone elses property and violated it. They purposefully disobeyed the rules. However, unless I've read the article wrong, some are getting felony charges because they spied on others.

Maybe I misread it. I thought they were all getting felony charges. I'll read it again.

Ok, it appears from the wording of the article, that all 13 were involved in this spying. It is kinda vague though. In that case, then I guess the charges are warranted. I assumed that only some were spying and that the rest were downloading IM tools and porn.

My apologies.

No worries, I misread it that way too. Time for bed.

[TimothyC]

What I want to know is why the machines were not taken from the students as soon as the admin password was "discovered", and programs were installed on the computer against school policy.

Edit: Spelling

[The Yosemite Bear]

you know we nerds did the exact same thing when I was in highschool, just you had to go to specific BBS to see p0rn back then, and download was impossible on one of those anchient modems. However, we did manage to make the jock class president absent more days then there was of school one semester....

end they finally noticed that someone might be mucking with the systems....

[Skelron]

They're being called the Kutztown 13 -- a group of high schoolers charged with felonies for bypassing security with school-issued laptops, downloading forbidden Internet goodies and using monitoring software to spy on district administrators

If they were just installing chat programs and looking at dirty pictures then I'd agree with you. However, they were spying on admins.

With the Admins own programs, they added nothing there when they spyed on the Admins that was not already there. Having beaten the Secuirty and given themselves the same access rights as the Admins, they by de-fault had the power to spy on the Admins. In that situation are you saying you wouldn't peek, imagine if a strange computer glitch gave you the same access as the Networks Admin. Are you saying you wouldn't even just for a laugh take a look at what the Admins where doing?

I know I would, it would just be amusing, I'd look, take a whirl, then log out and go report it. Again it's hardly Felony levels.

[ShinjiGohan]

K, will do. Now, back to the subject at hand:

This isn't like leaving your door unlocked. It's like locking the doors and then mailing duplicate keys to every person in town. Did they break the law when they went in? Yes, but you were still stupid as hell for sending keys to everyone.

I submit that, yes, the law was broken. I also submit that there is a better solution than felony charges against a bunch of students.

Not an accurate analogy.

A more suiting situation would be that the door was locked, and the spare keys were kept in a place that wouldn't take long for someone to find. Someone found it and made copies of keys to send to their friends.

So what? The fact that underage kids signed something that says they can be legally prosecuted doesn't mean that the district should always prosecute for any of the listed offenses.

I disagree, the fact that the kids signed the said agreement means that the district should always prosecute for any of the listed offenses. Otherwise the agreement that the kids signed was weak and negotiable to begin with.

They most certainly did not, and even if they had, so what? Nobody said that you have to keep escalating punishment for minor offences if the current ones aren't a deterrant. You don't throw someone in jail for jaywalking no matter how many times he's done it.

Seeing how that law is there for YOUR safety. Its you're choice, if you wanna keep on jay walking and risk getting run over by a car and dieing. Then maybe charging you with a felony is the only way that you'll understand that jaywalking is dangerous and thus a good punishment for people who enjoy jaywalking.

Which BTW, these kids are 13 years old? And isn't the law for nude pictures and such, requiring that they be of 21 years old? Add on to that, that it was on school computers. Those kids deserve any and all punishment that they receive in reponse to this issue.

[The Yosemite Bear]

actually it would be more like they left a jar out in the open that was labeled SPARE MASTER KEYS!!! DO NOT TOUCH, and filled to the brim with them.

such actually might qualify as either neiglegence or entrapment.

[Julhelm]

What a bunch of lamers. When I was in highschool the CS posse actually hacked the school network from the outside and changed the admins master password.

[The Yosemite Bear]

We knew the old backdoor and would activate the master purge command every year on the last week of school

or basically

rem school's out forever
format all

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

Not an accurate analogy.

A more suiting situation would be that the door was locked, and the spare keys were kept in a place that wouldn't take long for someone to find. Someone found it and made copies of keys to send to their friends.

You're comparing harmless teenaged fun on the school's computers with breaking into someone's house. Are you on drugs?

So what? The fact that underage kids signed something that says they can be legally prosecuted doesn't mean that the district should always prosecute for any of the listed offenses.

I disagree, the fact that the kids signed the said agreement means that the district should always prosecute for any of the listed offenses. Otherwise the agreement that the kids signed was weak and negotiable to begin with.

So according to you, protecting the sanctity of the agreement is more important than not fucking up the lives of a bunch of kids for crimes that deserve a slap on the wrist.

They most certainly did not, and even if they had, so what? Nobody said that you have to keep escalating punishment for minor offences if the current ones aren't a deterrant. You don't throw someone in jail for jaywalking no matter how many times he's done it.

Seeing how that law is there for YOUR safety. Its you're choice, if you wanna keep on jay walking and risk getting run over by a car and dieing. Then maybe charging you with a felony is the only way that you'll understand that jaywalking is dangerous and thus a good punishment for people who enjoy jaywalking.

And there you have it, ladies and gentlemen. This person believes that repated jaywalking merits felony charges. I don't need to say anything more.

Which BTW, these kids are 13 years old? And isn't the law for nude pictures and such, requiring that they be of 21 years old? Add on to that, that it was on school computers. Those kids deserve any and all punishment that they receive in reponse to this issue.

13 year olds looking at nudie pics? *gasp* Quick, dial 911!

[Darth Wong]

This is a retarded argument. The ease with which they committed their acts has no bearing on the legality and/or morality of these acts. If there's an unlocked door which is clearly marked "employees only - no trespassing" and you go through it, you are trespassing. The fact that they didn't put a lock on the door has absolutely no relevance to the fact that you did in fact trespass. And if they caught and warned you several times, you have no one to blame but yourself if they finally get fed up and charge you when you keep doing it.

The school could have taken other measures, and is clearly doing this just to set an example. But the students can hardly appeal to the ease of their offense as an excuse for that offense; that is an utterly ridiculous argument.

[The Yosemite Bear]

no the fact is that between the ages of 14 and 18 folks suffer from a toxic level of horomones which should otherwise make them considered less then culpabult or responsible for their actions, as they are operating in a deminished capacity. Now why society at that time wants them to be restricted in acess to horomonal venting opertunities (masturbation), and wants to let them have access to multi-ton transportation conveyances (auto-mobiles) is unknown.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

This is a retarded argument. The ease with which they committed their acts has no bearing on the legality and/or morality of these acts. If there's an unlocked door which is clearly marked "employees only - no trespassing" and you go through it, you are trespassing. The fact that they didn't put a lock on the door has absolutely no relevance to the fact that you did in fact trespass. And if they caught and warned you several times, you have no one to blame but yourself if they finally get fed up and charge you when you keep doing it.

The school could have taken other measures, and is clearly doing this just to set an example. But the students can hardly appeal to the ease of their offense as an excuse for that offense; that is an utterly ridiculous argument.

Who are you responding to?

As far as the trespassing analogy goes, that type of trespassing would be a misdemeanor, IIRC, which would have been a fair punishment for these kids.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Exactly

going overboard is what the school did, not as bad as China calling what most other countries call hacker Phreaking, Terrorism/and attempting to overthrow/destabalize the Chinese government. (remind me never to visit a country I have a death sentance in)

[Darth Wong]

Who are you responding to?

Anybody who's using the "but it was so easy to do" argument as a defense for these brats.

As far as the trespassing analogy goes, that type of trespassing would be a misdemeanor, IIRC, which would have been a fair punishment for these kids.

That may well be; I'm not particularly concerned with sentencing issues. I'm just criticizing the stupidity of the "but it was so easy to do" defense.

[The Yosemite Bear]

No what were saying is that:

1. the children got too harsh sentances
2. It was too easy to do=The Administration should have been fired!!!, they were obviously acting in a negligent fashion!/Grossly Incompetant!
3. This is nothing compared to the shit most of us former hackers used to do to our school when we we're in High School, but we had more class then this.