Suicide Arguements(Split from Smoking)

[Mrs Kendall]

Thread Hijack Split from the Smoking and Cancer thread-Bean

As cold hearted as it sounds, I say the same to those who commit suicide. Yes, it is sad that they died, but if they are dumb enough to think that killing themselves is the only solution, then I can't really have that much pity for them. There is always another solution, killing yourself if just plain stupid.

So do you think that people who are manic depressive and clinically depressive are stupid because they see that death is the only way out of thier miserbale lives? Gimme a break, you're a straight up asshole if you don't think there are exceptions to people who kill themselves to escape their pain. Like I said before try talking from experience or keep your mind open to different possibilities. What would you do someday if you had a huge accident and became clinically depressed cause you were paralized or disabled or something similiar, what if one day you lost the will to live? Should we call you stupid and say that you deserved it because you couldn't get over the hump? You know what, I say Fuck off you asshole!

[Aaron]

Yes. As I have said before, I feel pity if someone dies, doesn't matter how. But again, they chose that lifestyle, and thus brought that death upon themselves. As cold hearted as it sounds, I say the same to those who commit suicide. Yes, it is sad that they died, but if they are dumb enough to think that killing themselves is the only solution, then I can't really have that much pity for them. There is always another solution, killing yourself if just plain stupid.

Well I can see that you have dealt with a great many suicidal people in your life.

Let me clue you in, speaking as someone who has been suicidal in the past. If things are that desperate, the person who wants to commit suicide often thinks that that is their only option. They are not in their right frame of mind and don't see what that action will cost themselves or their families. Often times they can be talked down from the situation and be made to see that it's not worth it, and then they can see a medical professional for help treating the root cause of their suicide attempts. Suicide and suicide attempt don't happen in a vacumn, there is usually an underlying reason, be it clinical depression or PTSD, or something else.

But a big tough guy like you wouldn't be able to see all that now would you?

[DrkHelmet]

Let me clue you in, speaking as someone who has been suicidal in the past. If things are that desperate, the person who wants to commit suicide often thinks that that is their only option.

Speak for yourself. I have considered suicide many times in the past, and you don't speak for me.

They are not in their right frame of mind and don't see what that action will cost themselves or their families.

Some of us are planners, and have considered where all the pins will fall.

Often times they can be talked down from the situation and be made to see that it's not worth it, and then they can see a medical professional for help treating the root cause of their suicide attempts. Suicide and suicide attempt don't happen in a vacumn, there is usually an underlying reason, be it clinical depression or PTSD, or something else.

To say there is always an underlying reason is a true statement. However, to instantly say that just because there is "an underlying reason" is license to negate the desires of the individual is a fallacy. I know precisely what I did/didn't want to do. I considered all my options. If I had decided on death instead of life, would that have made me crazy? You cannot determine a person's ability to make their own decisions by the decisions they make.

[Aaron]

Speak for yourself. I have considered suicide many times in the past, and you don't speak for me.

I don't recall saying that I speak for everyone. However seeing as I took a suicide intervention course whilst in the Canadian Forces does qualify me to speak on suicide to a degree.

Some of us are planners, and have considered where all the pins will fall.

Good for you. Not everyone is like that.

To say there is always an underlying reason is a true statement. However, to instantly say that just because there is "an underlying reason" is license to negate the desires of the individual is a fallacy. I know precisely what I did/didn't want to do. I considered all my options. If I had decided on death instead of life, would that have made me crazy? You cannot determine a person's ability to make their own decisions by the decisions they make.

And how do you propose we determine a persons ability to make decision if we're not allowed to look at the decisions they make?

And while deciding to end you life may not make you crazy, it certainly puts you outside of the norms of human society.

[DrkHelmet]

I don't recall saying that I speak for everyone. However seeing as I took a suicide intervention course whilst in the Canadian Forces does qualify me to speak on suicide to a degree.

Sorry, it sounded like you were saying all suicidal people are the same as you.

Some of us are planners, and have considered where all the pins will fall.

Good for you. Not everyone is like that.

But you submit that most are not like that. I see no proof that your type is more popular than my type.

To say there is always an underlying reason is a true statement. However, to instantly say that just because there is "an underlying reason" is license to negate the desires of the individual is a fallacy. I know precisely what I did/didn't want to do. I considered all my options. If I had decided on death instead of life, would that have made me crazy? You cannot determine a person's ability to make their own decisions by the decisions they make.

And how do you propose we determine a persons ability to make decision if we're not allowed to look at the decisions they make?

That is an interesting question. However, if you asked a Fundie, he might say that all gay people are crazy (or heathens, whoever you ask). Your independent subjectivity of what actions "are" and "aren't" crazy is exactly the same.

And while deciding to end you life may not make you crazy, it certainly puts you outside of the norms of human society.

Concession accepted.

[Aaron]

Sorry, it sounded like you were saying all suicidal people are the same as you.

But you submit that most are not like that. I see no proof that your type is more popular than my type.

According to the suicide intervention course I took, the majority of people that commit suicide do not think things through, true planned suicides are rare.

That is an interesting question. However, if you asked a Fundie, he might say that all gay people are crazy (or heathens, whoever you ask). Your independent subjectivity of what actions "are" and "aren't" crazy is exactly the same.

Comparing me and my logic to a fundie huh, thats a new one.

Concession accepted.

That'd be great for you, if I new what the hell you're taking about.

[Tokaji Kyoden]

Well, let's get started here.

So do you think that people who are manic depressive and clinically depressive are stupid because they see that death is the only way out of thier miserbale lives? Gimme a break, you're a straight up asshole if you don't think there are exceptions to people who kill themselves to escape their pain.

I never said that there weren't exceptions. However, in the case taht you have presented, there are medications for manic depression, that is another way to try to live, rather than end your life. Now, as for those people who are paralyzed, say as Christopher Reeve, I think that falls more under the category of euthanasia, which is slightly different than suicide. In some cases, eithanasia can indeed be a better solution than continuing to live.

Well I can see that you have dealt with a great many suicidal people in your life.

Actually, I have, and have been suicidal myself. I fell into a horrible rut that I couldn't get out of and actually slit my wrist. As soon as that knife finished slicing me, however, I realized how stupid I was being, that killing yourself is never the answer, and that I would hurt way too many people by doing it.

Often times they can be talked down from the situation and be made to see that it's not worth it, and then they can see a medical professional for help treating the root cause of their suicide attempts. Suicide and suicide attempt don't happen in a vacumn, there is usually an underlying reason, be it clinical depression or PTSD, or something else.

And that is exactly what I was trying to get at. There is always another way. Seek medical help, talk to someone. As for PTSD, that can be treated with medications, etc.

If you feel desparate enough to kill yourself, then you should go and seek professional help. If you automatically resort to it, and do it, you are a moron, when there are other ways out.

[Aaron]

I never said that there weren't exceptions. However, in the case taht you have presented, there are medications for manic depression, that is another way to try to live, rather than end your life. Now, as for those people who are paralyzed, say as Christopher Reeve, I think that falls more under the category of euthanasia, which is slightly different than suicide. In some cases, eithanasia can indeed be a better solution than continuing to live.

The problem is catching the depression before it gets to the point were suicide becomes an issue. Some people just wallow in sorrow and then act on impulse. If you can cathc it befroe it gets to full blown suicide that you might be ok. Even if it turns into suicide the "person" can usually be "talked down" and a crisis averted.

Actually, I have, and have been suicidal myself. I fell into a horrible rut that I couldn't get out of and actually slit my wrist. As soon as that knife finished slicing me, however, I realized how stupid I was being, that killing yourself is never the answer, and that I would hurt way too many people by doing it.

That happens to alot of suicidal people as well, unfortunatly in alot of cases the action has already been iniated and it can be too late to save that person. But reminding people of their families can be an effective tactic in "talking them down"

And that is exactly what I was trying to get at. There is always another way. Seek medical help, talk to someone. As for PTSD, that can be treated with medications, etc.

Medication will likely be the first step anyways so the medical profession can prevent similar occurances by the suicidal party until they can get counselling. The thing is to get them that help before something happens.

If you feel desparate enough to kill yourself, then you should go and seek professional help. If you automatically resort to it, and do it, you are a moron, when there are other ways out.

Often times people are so depressed that the time between suicidal though and action can be very quick, with little time to reflect on it (almost like an impulse) to call these people morons is a little harsh. They are troubled and simply can't see a way out of the course they've embarked on.

[DrkHelmet]

According to the suicide intervention course I took, the majority of people that commit suicide do not think things through, true planned suicides are rare.

Google is your friend

Very close to the bottom of the page, the results are given. This is primarily on teen suicide. This is most available due to recent alarmist trends.

“Did” (attempt suicide) row indicates that of respondents who attempted suicide (and answered the question on planned attempts), 86% of females and 84% of males planned an attempt. Looking at table 2 by the “Did not plan” columns instead, only 2.1% of females and 0.8% of males who did not plan a suicide attempt actually attempted suicide. In contrast, of those who planned an attempt, 51% of females and 33% of females [I assume that was a typo...] actually attempted. This suggests that suicide involves forward-looking behavior and is typically not impulsive, giving preliminary support to the rational theory.

The rest of the article basically says that other data seems to indicate that rational theory is most likely.

That is an interesting question. However, if you asked a Fundie, he might say that all gay people are crazy (or heathens, whoever you ask). Your independent subjectivity of what actions "are" and "aren't" crazy is exactly the same.

Comparing me and my logic to a fundie huh, thats a new one.

Sorry, would you prefer that all speeding tickets be overturned for "underlying reasons?" I'm sure they were in a hurry.

Concession accepted.

That'd be great for you, if I new what the hell you're taking about.

You claimed that most people committing suicide are not rational. Since you said that they may not be crazy, I considered that a partial concession.

[Mrs Kendall]

I never said that there weren't exceptions.

Ok but you did make it sound that way with your blanket statement.

However, in the case taht you have presented, there are medications for manic depression, that is another way to try to live, rather than end your life.

Sure there are medications but do you understand how long it can take for an individual to find a medication that doesn't give him horrible side effects and cause him to lose his wife because he never wants to have sex for example. Plus the stigma that goes with one who is on anti-depressants. I had to take anti depressants for a short time after I had my son (post partum depression) and I felt like shit because I always had thoughts like 'why do I need medication to make me happy, how weak am I?' It makes some people feel even more crappy because they feel like they are now being controlled by a drug. My husband can say more on this subject better than I can as he has been on many different meds for his PTSD and Clinical Depression, he also has tried to take himself off the meds because they made him feel so out of conrtrol of his own life. So medications don't always work for everyone and while in the process of trying to find one that actually does work with minimal side effects I'm sure people start to think am I ever going to find a medication for me? Is there any point in trying anymore etc.. then they kill themselves in the rposcess of trying to find medication, so your point about medication doesn't always ring true.

Now, as for those people who are paralyzed, say as Christopher Reeve, I think that falls more under the category of euthanasia, which is slightly different than suicide. In some cases, eithanasia can indeed be a better solution than continuing to live.

Ok whatever, I never meant to make you think that I meant I was talking about people who can't do shit and can't even eat on their own, gimme a break, I meant people who need wheelchairs and people who can still walk for themselves, disabilities come in many different forms. Sometimes people who don't even look disabled at first glance actually are due to arthritis and stuff, living in pain every single day of your life can also make someone want to end it all by killing themselves.

Well I can see that you have dealt with a great many suicidal people in your life.

Actually, I have, and have been suicidal myself. I fell into a horrible rut that I couldn't get out of and actually slit my wrist. As soon as that knife finished slicing me, however, I realized how stupid I was being, that killing yourself is never the answer, and that I would hurt way too many people by doing it.

Good for you, sometimes people get worse than you were, sometimes they kill too fast and never have the chance to think about how stupid it is. Slitting your wrists is hardly a huge deal, I had a friend in high school who would slit her wrists regularily and she never died, she's still alive to this day, what about people who are driving by a rock face on the side of a highway and decide now's the time and go head, turn the wheel and drive head on into the rock face? How do you stop that, you're going over 100km/hr. I'm talking about faster means of killing yourself.

When you slit your wrists you had the chance to sit there and watch yourself cut your own wrists and you also probably would have had about an hour to bleed to death in which you could have gotten yourself some help if you had cut yourself that badly in the first place of course.

Often times they can be talked down from the situation and be made to see that it's not worth it, and then they can see a medical professional for help treating the root cause of their suicide attempts. Suicide and suicide attempt don't happen in a vacumn, there is usually an underlying reason, be it clinical depression or PTSD, or something else.

And that is exactly what I was trying to get at. There is always another way. Seek medical help, talk to someone. As for PTSD, that can be treated with medications, etc.

If you feel desparate enough to kill yourself, then you should go and seek professional help. If you automatically resort to it, and do it, you are a moron, when there are other ways out.[/quote]

Ok moron! You just told us that you tried to kill yourself and now you're saying people who do that are morons. You = MORON!! *points and laughs at the moron*

Grow up buddy, you're talking to a man and a women who are currently living and having to deal with the man having PTSD, Clinical Depression, Anger issues...etc... You're not going to talk us into believing any of your horseshit.

[Aaron]

“Did” (attempt suicide) row indicates that of respondents who attempted suicide (and answered the question on planned attempts), 86% of females and 84% of males planned an attempt. Looking at table 2 by the “Did not plan” columns instead, only 2.1% of females and 0.8% of males who did not plan a suicide attempt actually attempted suicide. In contrast, of those who planned an attempt, 51% of females and 33% of females [I assume that was a typo...] actually attempted. This suggests that suicide involves forward-looking behavior and is typically not impulsive, giving preliminary support to the rational theory.

I must be reading the chart wrong, because I get the opposite from it, people who didn't plan out number those who did plan.

Sorry, would you prefer that all speeding tickets be overturned for "underlying reasons?" I'm sure they were in a hurry.

Once again I have no clue what your trying to say.

You claimed that most people committing suicide are not rational. Since you said that they may not be crazy, I considered that a partial concession.

A partial concession thats the first time I've that on this board.

[DrkHelmet]

“Did” (attempt suicide) row indicates that of respondents who attempted suicide (and answered the question on planned attempts), 86% of females and 84% of males planned an attempt. Looking at table 2 by the “Did not plan” columns instead, only 2.1% of females and 0.8% of males who did not plan a suicide attempt actually attempted suicide. In contrast, of those who planned an attempt, 51% of females and 33% of females [I assume that was a typo...] actually attempted. This suggests that suicide involves forward-looking behavior and is typically not impulsive, giving preliminary support to the rational theory.

I must be reading the chart wrong, because I get the opposite from it, people who didn't plan out number those who did plan.

Ok, chart #2, second line. First column is whether they attempted suicide or not. The second line has "did" on it. This means that these are the ones that "did" attempt suicide. In the second column on the second line, which is "those that didn't plan the suicide", we have a number: 444. In the third column, also on the second line, we have those that DID plan the suicide over the last year: 2,650.

Do you propose to tell me that 444 > 2650?

[DrkHelmet]

Ghetto edit, I was quoting the female chart. The male chart has 174 non-planners and 886 planners.

[Aaron]

Ok, chart #2, second line. First column is whether they attempted suicide or not. The second line has "did" on it. This means that these are the ones that "did" attempt suicide. In the second column on the second line, which is "those that didn't plan the suicide", we have a number: 444. In the third column, also on the second line, we have those that DID plan the suicide over the last year: 2,650.

Do you propose to tell me that 444 > 2650?

Well it would seem that the info we got on the course was wrong. You have my concession on the point that more suicides are planned.

[Aaron]

Although I have my doubts as to the source, this seems to be some guys research paper for university. Got anything more mainstream?

[DrkHelmet]

Well it would seem that the info we got on the course was wrong. You have my concession on the point that more suicides are planned.

Thank you but, take heart. I would think that the rational ones would be much easier to talk down than the irrational ones. I know from personal experience that when I was about to jump off the Dam, I gave my entire situation one last run through in my mind, and decided it wasn't that bad. A rational person committing suicide would be more likely to listen to logic and reason.

An irrational person would just jump, I would think.

Don't count on that, just a personal opinion.

[DrkHelmet]

Although I have my doubts as to the source, this seems to be some guys research paper for university. Got anything more mainstream?

Well I'm headed out on a date at the moment, but, if you like, I can check when I get back.

[Aaron]

Thank you but, take heart. I would think that the rational ones would be much easier to talk down than the irrational ones. I know from personal experience that when I was about to jump off the Dam, I gave my entire situation one last run through in my mind, and decided it wasn't that bad. A rational person committing suicide would be more likely to listen to logic and reason.

An irrational person would just jump, I would think.

Don't count on that, just a personal opinion.

Well the irrational person may have a shred of reason left in him/her. It's that part of them we have to reach when you try to "talk them down".

[Aaron]

Well I'm headed out on a date at the moment, but, if you like, I can check when I get back.

By all means please do.

[Aaron]

The Justice Institute Of BC has this to say on the matter:

n BC adolescents, suicidal ideas and (non-fatal) behaviour are a significant concern. The McCreary Center Society surveyed 26,000 BC students in grades 7 to 12 in 1998-99. Students were asked to report their personal suicidal status during the past 12 months:

* 14 per cent said they had thought about suicide
* 11 per cent said they actually planned suicide
* 7 per cent said they actually attempted suicide (4 per cent of boys, 9 per cent of girls)
* 2 per cent said they suffered injury, poisoning or overdose from attempted suicide.

These figures report occurrences only for a 12-month span. The figures become much higher over a longer span, as in US studies which claim up to 60 per cent of high school students will seriously consider suicide between grades eight to 12; one in four will formulate a suicide plan, and one in ten will make a serious attempt. Fortunately, most suicidal youth reach out for help (See Community support topic).

[DrkHelmet]

Attempts were considered impulsive if the respondent reported spending less than 5 minutes between the decision to attempt suicide and the actual attempt. Among the 153 case-subjects, 24% attempted impulsively. Impulsive attempts were more likely among those who had been in a physical fight and less likely among those who were depressed.

I'm not sure I agree with how the count the numbers. To say that 5 minutes of planning is impulsive, but 10 minutes isn't sounds absurd to me. When contemplating suicide, I would say anything under an hour would be impulsive.

[url=http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:68qHm6XqEsAJ:www.
cdc.gov/ncipc/pub-res/suicide_supplement/32(1)b-accessible.pdf+
%22impulsive+suicide%22+statistics+%22planned+suicide%22&hl=en&
client=firefox-a]Linky[/url]

[DrkHelmet]

Something went wrong with that link. Could a mod fix it please?

[Aaron]

Attempts were considered impulsive if the respondent reported spending less than 5 minutes between the decision to attempt suicide and the actual attempt. Among the 153 case-subjects, 24% attempted impulsively. Impulsive attempts were more likely among those who had been in a physical fight and less likely among those who were depressed.

I'm not sure I agree with how the count the numbers. To say that 5 minutes of planning is impulsive, but 10 minutes isn't sounds absurd to me. When contemplating suicide, I would say anything under an hour would be impulsive.

Well I guess they figure that 10 minutes is long enough to come up with a decent plan. But I agree that 10 minutes should fall under impulsive.

[DrkHelmet]

Well I guess they figure that 10 minutes is long enough to come up with a decent plan. But I agree that 10 minutes should fall under impulsive.

I'm not quite sure how they came up with the "5 mins or less is impulsive" line of thought, but I disagree with that. The fact still remains that there are a significant number of those who have planned/considered it for a much longer period of time.

Personally, I considered it for about 3 weeks, and still changed my mind again at the last moment.

[Aaron]

I'm not quite sure how they came up with the "5 mins or less is impulsive" line of thought, but I disagree with that. The fact still remains that there are a significant number of those who have planned/considered it for a much longer period of time.

Unfortunatly the studies just say whether they had a plan or not. Not how long they planned it.

Personally, I considered it for about 3 weeks, and still changed my mind again at the last moment.

Yes but how many people who committ/try to commit suicide plan that long. The studies we've both posted don't say.