bibleforums.org find www.fstdt.com

[Magnetic]

Yes, they found "Fundies say the darndest things".

What's really funny is that the title is called "Look at this TRASH site".

One of them said that there weren't very many posts from their site on there, and that they need to try better.


On a side note, I looked through most of the samples, and one made me shutter, even basically being IN a Christian theology:

"[Responding to a hypothetical 'if God told you to kill 23 little babies, would you do it?']

if there was a command from God in His Word to kill 23 babies, then Christians are to obey it just as they are to obey every other command. SO don't think for a second in your hypothetical that just because they are babies that it would be just reason to disobey what God has commanded."

[Drunk Monkey]

People like him need to be shot.
Tell you what if any one or thing told me to kill 26 babies in a non joking manner I’d call the fucking FBI or shoot the fuck, because chances are he’s wanted in every state but Kansas.

[The Spartan]

"God is moral! God is just! If He says it's okay then I can do whatever the hell I want!"

I often wonder, would they actually go through with something like this? It's all well and good to bluster on an internet posting but if push came to shove would they(the average fundy that is) actually be able to look at an infant and kill it? To say nothing of doing so 23 times? The instinct to protect children is fairly well hardwired into our brains and then reinforced by society, and I wonder if they would really be able to overcome that. Or if they did, whether or not they would be able to live with themselves.

If anyone can post there, could they ask him about the mulitple commandments to kill homosexuals? I'd love to see him squirm his way out of that one, seeing as how he would definitely kill babies if God said so.

[Rahvin]

These are the really scary fundies. It wouldn't take much to push them into another "son of sam."

Hell, I've read at least two articles in the past year about women who murdered their own children (the one I remember most clearly bludgeoned three kids to shit with rocks) becuase "God told them they were evil."

What's REALLY scary is that, even in the face of such examples, knowing full well the possible outcome of such a "justification," many fundies still believe that everything commanded by God is good by definition, regardless of whether it would be considered horribly evil otherwise.

Hitler certainly seemed to think he was on a "mission from God" to destroy the Jews - by fundy "logic," he was justified for the Holocaust!

[Mange]

Absolutely horrifying and sickening...

Otherwise I found the "Post of the Month", concerning the flood, to be a gem. I've now bookmarked the site.

[General Trelane (Retired)]

A couple of points:

1. Was not the apple that Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil? In other words, if one reads the Bible literally as does a fundie, then Genesis clearly states that people have the capacity to discern good from evil independent of God.

2. If one has to obey every commandment from God, then what about, "Thou shalt not kill?" If God then issues a command to kill, how can one obey? If you obey one commandment, then clearly you are breaking the other. There is no weasel room here.

[drachefly]

Then what about Abraham and Isaac?

I guess you could go the Hyperion route in interpreting that...

[General Trelane (Retired)]

Yes, the Abraham/Isaac story is certainly a contradiction, but debating particulars with a fundie is an excercise in futility. Scratch that. . .any debate with a fundie is an excercise in futility.

So I'll stick to generalities. Every fundie would agree that (a) one must obey God's commandments and that (b) God unequivocally commands that we are not to kill. So if one were to receive a command from God to kill, then one is in a conundrum, and it would be immoral to obey that command mindlessly. Especially considering that we have the capacity to discern right from wrong.

Of course, this will fail to convince fundies who presuppose that good equals God (hence God being arbitrary/relative/inconsistent in its commands is not an issue to them).

[RedImperator]

These are the really scary fundies. It wouldn't take much to push them into another "son of sam."

Hell, I've read at least two articles in the past year about women who murdered their own children (the one I remember most clearly bludgeoned three kids to shit with rocks) becuase "God told them they were evil."

What's REALLY scary is that, even in the face of such examples, knowing full well the possible outcome of such a "justification," many fundies still believe that everything commanded by God is good by definition, regardless of whether it would be considered horribly evil otherwise.

To be fair, in cases such as that, the women involved are usually mentally ill. Severe postpartum depression can trigger infantacidal impulses in women who aren't particularly religious at all, to say nothing of mothers who are paranoid-schizophrenics. Religious fundamentalism certainly isn't helpful in such cases, but most of those women would probably have done it anyway.

[Magnetic]

They say that the better translation is, "Thou shall not murder. Holy war killing is permitted, I guess.

[Duckie]

That is true. In the Real World (tm), the Jewish farmers and priests who wrote the bible meant "Thou Shalt Not Kill Jews Or Allies Of The Jews" when they wrote that.

It's terrible that I have to say so, but the standard "I'm not antisemitic" disclaimer applies here. It's the same with every holy book besides maybe Buddhism and some Eastern Religions.

[Rocker5150]

Maybe it's like when the stoplight is red, but there is a cop in the street directing you to go ahead. A direct order can supercede a law, so if God gives you a personal direction you better obey! Nevermind killing a child.....it's okay!


-Kevin

[Molyneux]

Maybe it's like when the stoplight is red, but there is a cop in the street directing you to go ahead. A direct order can supercede a law, so if God gives you a personal direction you better obey! Nevermind killing a child.....it's okay!


-Kevin

I don't know about Christian theology, but I can't think of any way a Jew - even a Jewish fundie - could possibly justify that. Life is THE single important thing on Earth - the only possible crime for which death is a punishment in Jewish tradition is murder, and any other religious observance (the kosher laws, fasting for Yom Kippur, etc) is superseded by the preservation of life; that's why children aren't supposed to fast on Yom Kippur, because it could be dangerous for them. Same thing goes for medication and such.


And yes, I'm aware of the Biblical references to stoning a disobedient child and all that shit, but Judaism is NOT the Bible. Unlike certain other religions, we realize that it was written by Moses and others(albeit inspired by God), and is most assuredly not perfect.

[Rahvin]

To be fair, in cases such as that, the women involved are usually mentally ill. Severe postpartum depression can trigger infantacidal impulses in women who aren't particularly religious at all, to say nothing of mothers who are paranoid-schizophrenics. Religious fundamentalism certainly isn't helpful in such cases, but most of those women would probably have done it anyway.

Mental illness...exreme religious fundamentalism....

You see a difference?

Semi-humor aside, you are quite correct, but the typical fundy "everything commanded by God is good, even if it's not" version of morality would certainly excuse them. In fact, if God Himself were so come down and tell most fundies to bash their children's skulls against rocks, they would DO it.

I think such belief leaves them far more open to committing crimes borne of mental illness than those who actually use reason and have an internal moral code.

[Surlethe]

Life is THE single important thing on Earth - the only possible crime for which death is a punishment in Jewish tradition is murder, and any other religious observance (the kosher laws, fasting for Yom Kippur, etc) is superseded by the preservation of life; that's why children aren't supposed to fast on Yom Kippur, because it could be dangerous for them. Same thing goes for medication and such.

And here's where a fundie will disagree with you: Life is NOT the most important thing on Earth, but doing God's will IS. This is evidenced by the fact fundies are willing to give up their lives for what they believe is God's will -- or, at least they say they'll lay down their lives. Whether or not they'll actually do it is an entirely different matter.

[DPDarkPrimus]

Life is THE single important thing on Earth - the only possible crime for which death is a punishment in Jewish tradition is murder, and any other religious observance (the kosher laws, fasting for Yom Kippur, etc) is superseded by the preservation of life; that's why children aren't supposed to fast on Yom Kippur, because it could be dangerous for them. Same thing goes for medication and such.

And here's where a fundie will disagree with you: Life is NOT the most important thing on Earth, but doing God's will IS. This is evidenced by the fact fundies are willing to give up their lives for what they believe is God's will -- or, at least they say they'll lay down their lives. Whether or not they'll actually do it is an entirely different matter.

Why lay down your own life, when the lives of the heathens are ripe for the culling?

[TimothyC]

Then what about Abraham and Isaac?

I guess you could go the Hyperion route in interpreting that...

It's pre-law. If that makes me a crazy fundy than so be it, but what I say in this case is true.

[spikenigma]

*snip

I've posed questions like these on various forums in the past

surely you know that with the average fundamentalist, there can NEVER be a direct command from God? - it makes for a nice barrier between faith and reality

when I previously posed this question (baby killing), most of them said they would kill their own child if a verifiable direct command from God came. But it's the nature of that communication that gives them the get out clause:

* voice in the head = I must be crazy/it could be someone else
* burning bush = someone/something must be tricking me
* glowing cloud with disembodied voice = could be someone else
* animal starts talking = must be possessed with something else
* all of the above = god would "make" me believe it was him and no one else

when it is presented that those in the bible who were directly communicated to by God were not "made" to believe (as some didn't believe it was him at first) so why should he "make" you believe - no answers are forthcoming

[Molyneux]

Life is THE single important thing on Earth - the only possible crime for which death is a punishment in Jewish tradition is murder, and any other religious observance (the kosher laws, fasting for Yom Kippur, etc) is superseded by the preservation of life; that's why children aren't supposed to fast on Yom Kippur, because it could be dangerous for them. Same thing goes for medication and such.

And here's where a fundie will disagree with you: Life is NOT the most important thing on Earth, but doing God's will IS. This is evidenced by the fact fundies are willing to give up their lives for what they believe is God's will -- or, at least they say they'll lay down their lives. Whether or not they'll actually do it is an entirely different matter.

I was mostly trying to draw a distinction between, say, Jewish fundies (most of whom are still moderately sane) and Christian fundies.