Darth Vader vs Ben Kenobi (Rematch at Death Star). Who wins?

Rommie2006 · Post by **Rommie2006** » 2005-08-13 10:26pm

After reviewing OT with PT,

It struck me. IF Ben Kenobi did not need to save Luke, etc... and would to go on a one-on-one duel with Darth Vader, who would win?

For Darth Vader, I said he's spent the last few years hunting down all the Jedi renmants, so he probably got more practice of his saber techniques, probably picked up a few new Sith tricks here and there too.
Hopefully, chopping off his 4 limbs has taught him some humility and not over-extend himself. But his prosethetics and live-support suit has seem to greatly diminished his abilities, making him "weaker" than Anakin Skywalker at his peak.

For Ben Kenobi, he has aged considerably since he last met Vader (your powers are weak old man... remember?), but yet we see in PT Count Dooku who is probably as old as Ben Kenobi can still fight like a fresh Jedi Master. So is it really true that Ben Kenobi can no longer win a duel with Darth Vader? I'd probably also assume that years of exile has made him "out-of-practice".

So, my money is on Darth Vader. But by what margin would Vader overpower Ben? (of course feel free to disagree with my assessment)

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-08-13 10:29pm

either Vader or it gonna be a draw.

Tychu · Post by **Tychu** » 2005-08-13 10:56pm

I dont know it seemed to me that both of them were reeling, i mean it seems that Darth Vader was trying to do some quick sweeps to end the fight and it wasnt working. Ben seemed that he was able to keep up and he didnt seem to be sweating. He had a good conversation with Darth and only fell when he saw Luke as safe

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2005-08-13 10:56pm

On the other hand, old ben has been chilling in the desert, attuning to the force, learning from quigonn, etc. You never know what tricks he has.

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2005-08-13 11:06pm

Like... say, disappearing into thin air?

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-08-13 11:12pm

IIRC the Novelization says quite clearly that Ben is losing and buying time for the other by not retreating

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2005-08-14 01:38am

Lord Revan wrote:IIRC the Novelization says quite clearly that Ben is losing and buying time for the other by not retreating

Yes, but if he'd been able to retreat like he had at Mustafar would Obi-Wan have been able to fight to a draw or even another mind over matter victory?

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2005-08-14 05:34am

Lord Revan wrote:IIRC the Novelization says quite clearly that Ben is losing and buying time for the other by not retreating

No, it doesnt. The balance between the two seems to be as that on Mustafar. Vader even comments that Ben still has his skill. But he does give himself as a distraction to allow the others to escape.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2005-08-14 05:37am

Straha wrote:
Lord Revan wrote:IIRC the Novelization says quite clearly that Ben is losing and buying time for the other by not retreating
Yes, but if he'd been able to retreat like he had at Mustafar would Obi-Wan have been able to fight to a draw or even another mind over matter victory?

Possibly. Ben held his own in the duel, and allowed himself to be killed.

Guardsman Bass · Post by **Guardsman Bass** » 2005-08-14 01:51pm

Stuart Mackey wrote:
Lord Revan wrote:IIRC the Novelization says quite clearly that Ben is losing and buying time for the other by not retreating
No, it doesnt. The balance between the two seems to be as that on Mustafar. Vader even comments that Ben still has his skill. But he does give himself as a distraction to allow the others to escape.

Didn't Vader also say that his (Ben's) powers had grown weak? It's quite possible that he still possesses his lightsaber skills, but that the force powers he used for combat when he was younger have atrophied, especially if he's been focusing on Qui-Gon's immortality trick.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2005-08-14 01:56pm

Kenobi was the master at the defensive style of lightsaber combat. I see no reason why he would not still be competent in it. Long years on Tatooine with the possibility of Imperials hunting him would seem to be a good motivator to keep up on the lightsaber skills.

Without Luke and trying to save him, I don't doubt he could fight Vader to a stand still again. Vader's range of motion is severly limited with the suit so he's not as dexterous as he used to be, though the cybernetics might make him stronger.

Ben's Force powers might have been weak in Vader's view because Ben might have been using a more passive type rather than Standard Jedi Force shit that undoubtable Vader was expecting. Ben was training with 'Qui Jon' for who knows how long on Tatooine.

Ben was trying to make that 'change' that Yoda saw was necessary to defeat the Sith.

Guardsman Bass · Post by **Guardsman Bass** » 2005-08-14 02:09pm

Ben's Force powers might have been weak in Vader's view because Ben might have been using a more passive type rather than Standard Jedi Force shit that undoubtable Vader was expecting. Ben was training with 'Qui Jon' for who knows how long on Tatooine.

Although Kenobi wasn't anywhere near as mobile as he was in RoTS, at the same time, Anakin trained with Kenobi for 13 years, so he almost assuredly knows that Kenobi's fighting style - Soresu - is passive.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2005-08-14 02:31pm

Guardsman Bass wrote:
Ben's Force powers might have been weak in Vader's view because Ben might have been using a more passive type rather than Standard Jedi Force shit that undoubtable Vader was expecting. Ben was training with 'Qui Jon' for who knows how long on Tatooine.
Although Kenobi wasn't anywhere near as mobile as he was in RoTS, at the same time, Anakin trained with Kenobi for 13 years, so he almost assuredly knows that Kenobi's fighting style - Soresu - is passive.

That works both ways though, Ben trained Anakin from the get go so should know most of his moves and tells.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2005-08-14 02:41pm

I think Ben could have won if he played it smart. Vader back in the day was a victim if his own arrogance, in AotC he stupidly rushed Dooku and paid the price by losing his hand, against Obi-Wan in Mustafar he was similarily arrogant and lost even more limbs this time.

Obi-Wan and Vader know each others styles very well and should be evenly matched but Obi-wan has the psycological advantage of a previous win over Anakin. All he has to do is wait for Vader to lose his temper and make a mistake.

The Jazz Intern · Post by **The Jazz Intern** » 2005-08-14 08:04pm

My money's on ben. He could, probably defeat vader by using the force. notice he never uses any real for ce attack or defence techniques.

[nitpick/on/] But even if he won, he'd never get out of there. [nitpick/off/]

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-08-14 08:09pm

Lord Pounder wrote:I think Ben could have won if he played it smart. Vader back in the day was a victim if his own arrogance, in AotC he stupidly rushed Dooku and paid the price by losing his hand, against Obi-Wan in Mustafar he was similarily arrogant and lost even more limbs this time.

Obi-Wan and Vader know each others styles very well and should be evenly matched but Obi-wan has the psycological advantage of a previous win over Anakin. All he has to do is wait for Vader to lose his temper and make a mistake.

Vader in ANH is not same person as Anakin in AOTC and Vader in ROTS, while still has short temper, he's no were as careless as he before. IMHO they are so close skills both with a lightsaber and with the Force that this fight would solved by stamina in which case Vader wins (though it may take a while).

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-08-14 08:36pm

The Jazz Intern wrote:My money's on ben. He could, probably defeat vader by using the force. notice he never uses any real for ce attack or defence techniques.

[nitpick/on/] But even if he won, he'd never get out of there. [nitpick/off/]

Um, what about the ESB fight, or the use of TK on Mustafar?

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-08-14 08:43pm

Noble Ire wrote:
The Jazz Intern wrote:My money's on ben. He could, probably defeat vader by using the force. notice he never uses any real for ce attack or defence techniques.

[nitpick/on/] But even if he won, he'd never get out of there. [nitpick/off/]
Um, what about the ESB fight, or the use of TK on Mustafar?

Kenobi, not Vader

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-08-14 08:51pm

Lord Revan wrote:
Noble Ire wrote:
The Jazz Intern wrote:My money's on ben. He could, probably defeat vader by using the force. notice he never uses any real for ce attack or defence techniques.

[nitpick/on/] But even if he won, he'd never get out of there. [nitpick/off/]
Um, what about the ESB fight, or the use of TK on Mustafar?
Kenobi, not Vader

Oh...

Then what Jazz said doesnt make any sense. He rarely use fancy force moves... but he could beat Vader because he would use them.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2005-08-15 12:01am

Um, by the time of ANH, Vader had grown alot more powerful in the Force.

I mean, look at his force-tossing in ESB.

Hell, in the ESB novel, when Luke jumped, Vader used the Force to create winds so strong Luke was flying back up toward him until Vader let them drop to prove a point to Luke.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2005-08-15 12:18am

Escape was a possible situation for Kenoi but it might have given the Death star personell time to figure out why the tractr beam doesn't work. I think Kenobi knew Vader would not let him escape anyway and the longer he draged it out the less chance both he and Luke could escape.

Its not like Yoda wasn't around to train Luke if need be.

Rommie2006 · Post by **Rommie2006** » 2005-08-15 12:19am

Ben Kenobi:
1) In the novelisation was it explicitly stated that Ben was losing to Vader or holding his ground? That would help clear up alot of stuff.
2) Ok, admittedly he may have "practiced" to keep up with his skills, but in my opinion I think Ben Kenobi has become physically weaker & slower to a point till that he can no longer win the duel. Why? Because Dooku who was probably as old as him was seen to exhibit far greater skills than Ben Kenobi did.

Vader:
1) Vader/Anakin was probably the most skilled swordsman and could easy best Dooku, Palpatine(he admitted it) and speculatively Windu & Yoda(perhaps since Yoda and Palpatine fought to a draw). He only lost to Kenobi because of his impulsive-angry "character flaw", which is gone by OT right? Would this not make him the victor then?
2) Arguably, Vader's suit has limited his mobility OR it could have enhanced his physical strength. Do we have any official confirmation on whether his suit has impeded him in anyway?

Srynerson · Post by **Srynerson** » 2005-08-15 12:49am

Rommie2006 wrote:For Ben Kenobi, he has aged considerably since he last met Vader (your powers are weak old man... remember?), but yet we see in PT Count Dooku who is probably as old as Ben Kenobi can still fight like a fresh Jedi Master. So is it really true that Ben Kenobi can no longer win a duel with Darth Vader? I'd probably also assume that years of exile has made him "out-of-practice".

The years of exile almost certainly have more to do with Kenobi's performance than his age. The ROTS novelization says Dooku was 83 at the time (Christopher Lee's actual age). I know Kenobi's official age has been subject to revision, and I don't have a copy of the EGTC at hand, but Alec Guinness himself was only 63 at the time ANH was released. So a man approximately 20 years Kenobi's senior was able to fight two able-bodied Jedi far more vigorously.

GeneralTacticus · Post by **GeneralTacticus** » 2005-08-15 03:20am

Rommie2006 wrote:Ben Kenobi:
1) In the novelisation was it explicitly stated that Ben was losing to Vader or holding his ground? That would help clear up alot of stuff.

It doesn't really say; it refers to Kenobi "backing towards the hangar" until cut off by Stormtroopers, but there was nothing about who was winning until Vader cut him down.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2005-08-15 03:44am

It seems ro me that, like someone stated higher up, Anakin's real failing was his arrogance. After losing parts of all his limbs, I'm sure he curbed that greatly.
Also Anakin's only two loses that I'm aware of were against Dooku, who had greater power at the time and the element of surprise (I don't think they knew he was a Sith Lord until he unleashed the Force lightning) And against Obi-Wan, who only had the strategic advantage of the "high ground". By the time of Hope, I don't think Vader was at any disadvantage.
Vader was a warrior created in the Clone Wars and then honed by the Sith. Obi-Wan was a self exiled hermit. Yeah he could have kept up with his saber training, but I don't think he would have dealt with anything close to what Vader did hunting down the last of the Jedi.

Vader wins hands down.

Oh and how come Star Wars is the only science fiction where having cybernetics seems to be taken as a disadvantage?

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Darth Vader vs Ben Kenobi (Rematch at Death Star). Who wins?

Darth Vader vs Ben Kenobi (Rematch at Death Star). Who wins?

Re: Darth Vader vs Ben Kenobi (Rematch at Death Star). Who w